Which part of that is invention? I can find it all if I could be bothered.
What I really want to know is what is the vision of Starmer for the UK from now on. Because according to his spokesman, video above, he has no clue.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Which part of that is invention? I can find it all if I could be bothered.
What I really want to know is what is the vision of Starmer for the UK from now on. Because according to his spokesman, video above, he has no clue.
I probably wouldn't bother to be honest.
This is great comedy. People having no idea. The most knowledgeable person being Gina Miller.
The Tory guy is unbelievably thick.
The Labour guy looked lost.
Iain Dale was surprised Vauxhall now owned Fiat, nearly spat out my coffee.
The lack of knowledge is astounding.
If I was asked to guess the percentage, I would have put it at higher than 9%. Just shows how loud that vocal minority is.
I saw an article in an other british paper that also seemed to not undertand what Stellantis was. But Vauxhall owning Fiat is a new low.
I saw an article in an other british paper that also seemed to not undertand what Stellantis was. But Vauxhall owning Fiat is a new low.
Bet he didn't know Vauxhall were taking over by General Motors nearly 100 years ago in 1925 either. We're British don't you know!
I'm dying to know what they all expect the EU to do. Rub their hands with glee as the last remnants of the British motor industry is transferred to mainland Europe?
That's not the key point Paul. Vauxhall is owned by PSA(Peugeot Family) who is the second largest shareholder of an holding company named Stellantis which has for largest shareholder Exor, the owners of Fiat.
Ian Dale has no business being aired on LBC or anywhere supposed to inform people.
Yes I know that. Also some of the brands of the group are Dodge Chrysler Alfa Romeo, Maserati etc.
My sarcasm doesn't always come across.
Iain Dale is just the presenter as far as I know. Think he was a Brexiteer.
I don't think he is. Starmer knows the moment has passed for everyone, the BREXIT egg has been broken, the yoke spilled, there is no going back.
He is wisely kicking it into the long grass, because he knows there is no going back, so does everyone else in the UK and in the EU, there is only the future. Starmer knows he will win not one single solitary extra vote, by wringing his hands and saying "were doomed, doomed I tell yer".
He has to say we look to the future, Brexit has been done with and we have to now make the best of it, he is accepting reality.
He also, most importantly, recognises that Sunak (a former Brexiteer) also recognises the need to find a way forward with our neighbors, hence the plan to revoke European law in many areas within the UK has been shelved, probably for good. Just as Starmer is effectively trying to win back some if not all of his red wall, Sunak is trying to save his 'blue wall' by trying to allay remainer concerns.
The fallout from Brexit will still play a role in the next GE.... "but not in the way we know it Jim".
The moment has not passed though. Yes the UK has left the EU, it's left the CU and the SM. There's no going back in the near future as I've said countless times on here.
But... and the big but is what happens next. If Starmer gets in, what happens next. there are so many lists of pledges and plans which have been conveniently forgotten
I presume this is Starmer's current plan:
1. Sort out the Northern Ireland Protocol;
2. Tear down unnecessary trade barriers;
3. Support our world leading services and scientists;
4. Keep Britain safe;
5. Invest in Britain.
1. He doesn't seem to have noticed that the Windsor Framework has been agreed and that the DUP were lying about NI not being able to trade with GB- just a couple of days ago in the video posted above his spokesman seemed unaware.
2. Unnecessary trade barriers are caused by not being in the SM and CU. If you're not in the same CU the red tape is not going to stop. In the video about Vauxhall he starts talking as if the Uk can still produce cars the same way as before they left the EU. You can't now. Someone should tell him.
The other three parts of the plan are so vague and meaningless.
So is he going to undo all the harm the Tories have done and are still going to do before they leave office (if they leave office) or will this upset the Brexiters?
So as the economy and industry, manufacturing and services continue to decline over the coming years, at what point does he say, "actually I can't make Brexit work"
Even now Farage knows Brexit is a disaster, Johnson knows Brexit is a disaster, most of the country knows Brexit is a disaster; the rest of the world knows Brexit is a disaster.
But good old Starmer is going to plod on, make brexit work , pull further away from the EU and delay for many more years the start of the way back, which will have to come at some point.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ted-status-in-japan-despite-liz-truss-promise
British foods awaiting protected status in Japan despite Liz Truss promise
Exclusive: three years after Truss boasted of securing status in trade deal, products such as Cornish pasties can still be copied
British foods awaiting protected status in Japan despite Liz Truss promise
Exclusive: three years after Truss boasted of securing status in trade deal, products such as Cornish pasties can still be copied
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ted-status-in-japan-despite-liz-truss-promise
British foods awaiting protected status in Japan despite Liz Truss promise
Exclusive: three years after Truss boasted of securing status in trade deal, products such as Cornish pasties can still be copied
Factories springing up all over Japan just to produce Cornish Pasties.
Jesus fecking Christ. There you go again. Posting your thoughts as actual facts. There IS a going back. The moment hasn't passed. We have a route back in. How.do you make it that we don't?;
The big problem is if we do go begging and admit we made a mistake, then if we get back In it will be on the EU's terms. It's highly fecking unlikely we could keep the pound, and we would be bent over during negotiations so ggg
The sad thing is we had our cake and we're eating it. No other country had their own currency, not did anyone else have the control we had. We dictated to Europe and they tolerated us because of how powerful and influential we are.
Now we have left and want back in they are going to milk it as much as they can. Rightly so too!
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...u-have-dropped-by-more-than-half-since-brexit
UK fruit exports to EU have dropped by more than half since Brexit
Exports of fruit fell from £248.5m in year to March 2021 to £113.8m in 12 months to March 2023
Nothing to do with Brexit, must be the weather, yes that's it.
In any case when Starmer's renegotiated the Oven Ready Deal - otherwise known as the Withdrawal Agreement, those Europeans won't ask for any documentation or checks, they'll be no queues and we'll all live happily ever after in Unicorn Land.
UK fruit exports to EU have dropped by more than half since Brexit
Exports of fruit fell from £248.5m in year to March 2021 to £113.8m in 12 months to March 2023
Nothing to do with Brexit, must be the weather, yes that's it.
In any case when Starmer's renegotiated the Oven Ready Deal - otherwise known as the Withdrawal Agreement, those Europeans won't ask for any documentation or checks, they'll be no queues and we'll all live happily ever after in Unicorn Land.
No, its not making Brexit work, that Starmer's after, its making the aftermath of Brexit work. He has to do that, no Party Leader is going to win the next election saying, "lets pretend we cannot exist, that we are all going to hell in a hand cart, lets all go and jump into the sea. etc" whatever the aftermath of Brexit the UK and the world has to go on and anyone wanting to lead the country has to acknowledge that fact and be as upbeat as possible. With remainers still crying in their milk he is doing the best thing possible and effectively kicking into the long grass, with vague promises along the lines of "I'll take at look at that again later".
I don't, its posters on here that make it sound like we should all go and cut our throats!
That was one of the problems going forward, if we really did want to be part of the EU we should have been fully in with the Euro, which we were not, for all sorts of reasons and we had lots of 'bye's on specific issues, this is what remainers should have made more of. Most of the people I know who voted for Brexit did not consider the economic advantages, because lots of them did not perceive they had any special economic advantages that worked for them, or special privileges.
As for going back, that is debatable on a number of levels, as you say joining the Euro will be compulsory, special dispensations will not exist, sovereignty, now in truth, will be totally gone.
His only objective is to become PM. It's completely obvious that he has no idea at all what is involved. Until he understands what has happened the Uk is completely and utterly ****ed between him and the Tories
You can't make the aftermath of Brexit work. It's not possible. Any one with an ounce of intelligence knew that Brexit or the aftermath could never ever work, it doesn't matter who's running the country. That's why the country was warned before the referendum but not enough people took any notice
Farage says the Tories have done it wrong, Starmer says they've done it wrong.
There is only one Brexit and you've got it.
How you get out of it is another matter but keep pretending or thinking it's going to work helps nobody.
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Saying that Labour are as bad as the Tory lot because they will have to deal with the reality of Brexit, and find a way to make it work, is ignoring the fact that Labour aren't the idiots that pushed for Brexit in the first place.
I can tell you not to fill the house we share with mountains of dogshit. You still go and buy the dogshit. No matter what, we all have to deal with the dogshit. An election comes up for everyone else in the house to decide who will be responsible for the house from now on. Nobody is going to say "Well, don't vote for Pidgy because he says we'll need to deal with the dogshit somehow. Let's vote again for rimaldo, he did great work bringing all those wheelbarrows of dogshit in here and cackling mischievously as he shoved the silverware in his fat elitist pockets."
I can tell you not to fill the house we share with mountains of dogshit. You still go and buy the dogshit. No matter what, we all have to deal with the dogshit. An election comes up for everyone else in the house to decide who will be responsible for the house from now on. Nobody is going to say "Well, don't vote for Pidgy because he says we'll need to deal with the dogshit somehow. Let's vote again for rimaldo, he did great work bringing all those wheelbarrows of dogshit in here and cackling mischievously as he shoved the silverware in his fat elitist pockets."
I'll reply to your other reply.
Nobody says you should cut your throats. You should try to find a way back.
If you don't want to find a way back then you have had a small taster of what the future holds, the next few years are going to be worse.
You can't reverse history, you're out. You now have another decision. Pretend everything's going to be fine. Your Brexit friends, will they be happy with a worsening economy? or try to find a way back.
So because France and Germany and all the other countries have the Euro, they've lost their sovereignty? It's still the same nonsense; All the Brexit nonsense. It hasn't stopped it's still going on. When will it stop? How far down does the UK have to go?
I believe that Starmer (along with most of his front bench) does want to find a way back (or at least start on that path). But Labour is traumatised by losing the red wall marginal seats in 2019, and, as those seats are still Brexit supporting and the UK electoral results are decided by such marginals, Labour has to at least pretend to accommodate the knuckle draggers in order not to give the Tory/Ukip press ammo and jeopardise its chances.
Good post.I understand that reasoning. But - you can go along with that reasoning until the point that the Red Wall Brexiters change their mind and say 'oh yes, we've made a mistake, silly us' - don't see that happening.
Then you listen to Starmer talk, which we have done for years , no change at all, he thinks he can renegotiate the Withdrawal agreement and the Trade Agreement and remove the barriers which are not going away while the UK stays outside the CU and SM. When he acknowledges and understands those problems then he may command more respect.
Then if he is elected next year, he's going to be in charge when the full effect of Brexit starts to happen. The Tory/UKIP press are going to eat him alive.
So cut out the middle man and get straight to the point. There's nothing to lose because either way he's going to get roasted.
It's me just hoping there's one politician in Britain who has got the character and knowledge to call Brexit out for what it is.
The other point is that he's expecting other people to vote for him while saying he's going to renegotiate brexit, make it work and all the other nonsense.
Treating vast numbers of the British electorate as gullible idiots, like the Red Wallers, is insulting.
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To be fair the Greens, Lib Dems and SNP (although for purely selfish reasons on their part) have been calling it out. Labour as mentioned above seem to be pandering to these red wall voters both on Brexit and migration.
Yes but they have no power in Westminster at the moment.
Only the red wall voters matter to Labour.
Scots, Remainers throughout the whole country who could vote for Labour if they weren't treated as fools. Or is it Stevenage woman who voted for Brexit? Really Labour are just appealing to Brexit voters, the same as the Tories.
What a surprise it would be if those who know Brexit will never work did actually vote for the other parties instead of Labour or the Tories.
Lord Buckethead seems a more sensible option at the moment.
Then we had all better jump in the sea with a stone collar on?
Really Paul you know better than that, whatever mistakes this country makes and there have been plenty, (e.g. even that stalwart of the left Tony Benn warned against joining the common market!!) It will find a way and has been doing so for thousands of years, or at least since 1066. 'Out of the frying pan into the fire' quite often, but then putting the fire out, sometimes more by good luck than good judgement, then off to make other mistakes!
My predictions are; though most people in the UK don't know it yet, or even recognized its potential yet, immigration will be the answer for the future, once the illegality of people trafficking is smashed (cue the Home Secretary) and a proper system is devised that works effectively. Things will get sorted on the island of Ireland, as much for their own sake as anything to do the rest of the UK, the change in voting we have seen might be the tip of the final 'iceberg' to be navigated in Ireland, who knows future historians may be writing about how ...Brexit was the cataylst for the final unification of Eire.
Life has to go on and it will.
It was self-destructive idiocy of epic proportions. The only solution is to beg to rejoin ASAP.
Of course life will go on , but why do you want to be poorer? Brexit was without doubt the most calamitous mistake in our lifetimes. And it's not easy to rectify. There's only one way. Can't think of a more catastrophic mistake in history. Maybe ignoring Hitler in the 30s - Daily Mail liked Hitler too.
I see you've also bought into the 'illegal immigration and trafficking' nonsense from Braverman. Even Labour have joined in. The brainwashing media still works in the UK. The people in boats is a tiny tiny percentage of the immigration figures and was almost non-existent before Brexit. Illegal immigration is from visa overstayers not refugees and asylum seekers. Most of the trafficking could be stopped if the Uk had a proper safe route system; they won't do it because they want to blame the refugees.
PS Braverman now seems to be blaming overseas students instead
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In terms of ever getting a proper system in place that would benefit both immigrants as well as the country as a whole, getting rid of this illegal entry system is not a nonsense, its essential. No forward (post Brexit) looking safe and legal system can be entered into with the support of the mass population until this 'dragon is slayed'. Braverman and the Tories know this and are working the strings to their advantage. Starmer has to be very careful on this matter.
He has to circumvent Tory propaganda, until the Dragon is slain, or he is elected PM. Then start to build a consensus on immigration to last the next fifty years.
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While there is money to be made out of people trafficking, you are never going to stop it. Just like the drug trade. No amount of legislation or trying to frighten people not to want to try. The people traffickers will always find a way to refine their trade.
And more importantly satisfy the demand.
To them, it is just business. Identify the demand and find a way to satisfy it in a way that keeps the risk to them low.
Starmer and Labour say to Braverman, why haven't you stopped the boats? The boats aren't the problem. The problem is that there's no safe legal route.
Amazingly they pulled out all the stops for Ukranian refugees or for anyone that makes them look good. The propaganda machine who convinced people of Clacton that the Uk are taking all the refugees and other countries should help. Anything to do with Ukraine the the government tells the people they are leading the way. Good publicity. They believe it all.
Refugees and asylum seekers are entitled to make the claim in the country of their choice. The Uk government don't want them. Because they are geographically perched on the edge of Europe they think they should go to other countries.
Understand the immigration figures about to be released will be around 700k (44k of which will be boat people).
Yes they will, but for the political leaders of this country 'slaying the particular dragon' of 'stopping the boats' is now essential to a have any chance of getting a proper policy for dealing with the amount of potential immigrants, from all over the world, that will take place over the next fifty years, being accepted by the vast majority in this country.
Its an uncomfortable feeling but its a reality which, like the position on post Brexit Britain, Starmer has to box clever on if he wants to be a PM with real power in office, not just being in office.
In Britain you must appeal to racists or you can't succeed?
So what is stopping the Uk setting up legal routes? They did with Ukraine.
Politically they are the problem. Its not just a question of pandering to people, who or most of who, voted for Brexit, its about building something durable, a system that will deal with what is about to take place over the next fifty years and beyond and having a consensus here in the UK as well as probably across the EU. Immigration whether it be asylum seekers or people seeking a new life, or escaping from ravages of earth quakes, water shortages, etc will go through the roof in Europe over the next fifty years if as predicted the climate change targets are not met. People from all over will be flooding towards Europe and other countries around the world who seem to offer a safe haven from the worst of climate changes.
"Stopping the boats" now has a symbolism way above the reality of the numbers arriving in that manner. Its a 'Dragon that as to be seen to be slain', even if in reality it simply slips away and returns in another form. Whoever is PM after the next election will find this a number one problem that won't go away unless they can convince the vast majority of the UK population that they have it under control and now want to look further ahead and build a consensus here in the UK first, then with our European neighbours.
It is a real issue for Britain firstly because after Covid a substantial amount of the population it seems were either unable/unwilling to return to a working life. That added to the problems in the jobs market caused by Brexit, it means we just don't have enough people going forward. Hence either our young people will have to begin breeding like the 'proverbial rabbits', or we will have to entice more people to come and settle here.
However this cannot be done on the back of a 'fag-packet' and above all it needs consensus a true consensus.
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Its an 'uncomfortable/inconvenient' truth and is not likely to go away anytime soon, it has to be dealt with
I believe in the Ukraine situation they all arrived with valid passports and papers and hence the processing time took much less.
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It's the same government propaganda.
They talk as if only, yes only, the UK was affected by Covid or the war in Ukraine. Brexit hasn't worked because of this, they say. it's complete and utter mindnumbingly pathetic.
All these things affect all countries. But at least the EU countries haven't got Brexit to worry about.
Of course they'll be more people affected by climate change.
The boat people story started because the government were "so worried" that is was dangerous to cross the busiest sea-lane in the world in a dinghy. Yes we know that, the refugees know that but they want to be in the Uk for whatever reason.
Tell you what - we'll open an office in Calais and they can have their application processed.
No, no, no, say the UK government, we can't do that.
No but surely according to the British government they should stop at the first safe country. Poland etc. none of them would have reached Britain (that wouldn't look good would it? We're leading the way!!). Or those coming across the Med to Italy or Greece; they should all stay there.
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Sorry missed out your first sentence
Yes that's what has been said , Italy and some other EU countries say the same? Not quite sure of what you are getting at here Paul?
Thought we were talking about people in boats crossing the channel?
Again its not how many, or could they have stayed in France or somewhere else, its about attempts to enter the UK illegally. I don't think anyone disagrees about finding safer routes, but the processing still needs to done to ensure legality, and as I have said previously it is a political reality now that the boats have to be stopped, in order that proper and long lasting routes into and around the UK can and in political terms, need to be found that garners support from a the vast majority of the public. A tidal wave of people wanting to come to many countries, in particular in Northern Europe is likely to occur over the next fifty years and any system to accommodate this development needs the support of the vast majority of the population.
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It's not illegal to claim asylum or to be a refugee.
So you're perfectly happy with the 656k legal immigrants but are worried about 44k people who have desperately tried to get to the Uk by any means they can because they have no safe legal route. Provide a safe legal route and they wouldn't be classed as "illegal" by the UK. Just as well other countries accept refugees.
Should be a million in a few years.
It's actually quite funny how Brexit has had the exact opposite effect of what it was about. Really about - foreigners. Greatly denied at the beginning. Less now.
It's not foreigners we're against, they said, it's that we want a fairer system for everyone, not just Europeans. Well the Europeans have stopped coming (all 500m of them) in the main. Now the whole world can come under a fair system for everybody (shouldn't Farage have a poster with 8 billion refugees on it)?
As always… No. just no. Wrong end of the telescope. The boats will never stop. Never ever. You don’t need to stop them.
Their number will be hugely diminished if these people can apply without getting in a boat. Let’s stop pretending that the boats are the problem. They are the illustrative example of the wider problem.
Open legal routes. Be grown ups.if For no other reason than stopping forcing desperate people to die. Accept applications through proper channels, at greater numbers. Make it easy and lawful and make it work. Just like all the other adults in the room. That’s not giving over to infinite asylum claims. We don’t take many. Hardly anyone gets in a boat. We have turned into a pisspot scabby little country off the back of this ‘We need to stop the boats’ bullshit. It’s bullshit.
Stop drinking the damn Nazi kool-aid.
And if people think that the levels of immigration, illegal or otherwise is not palletable, you ain't seen nothing yet...
We all know that climate change is already affecting weather systems. And it is predicted that this will affect sub Saharan Africa badly. Causing crop failure and widespread movement of those people.
In the same way, rising sea levels will also result in widespread movement.
Have to confess that I look forward to my grandchildren future with trepidation.