Or they could be just shit business men and it would have happened irrespective of Brexit, not everything is Brexit's fault and I say that as someone who thinks that it was the most moronic decision the country could have made
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You don't set up a small business that exports to the EU in the UK, the costs and administration expenses are too high.
Makes zero sense. One day people will finally realise what was voted for. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe another three years or so.
The terrible thing is that these things tend to have a snowball effect.
As a country the UK implemented policies that actually make harder for exporters to sell their products.
Therefore lots of exporting companies (big ones and entrepreneurs) either downsize or close.
Those tens of thousands of recently unemployed go to either welfare (which consume resources for the ones in need, and if they become scarce it would mean either higher taxes or a decrease in quality of life) or the working market (which reduces real wages and spurs inequality, causing a higher need of public spending financed through either taxes or inflation -if they try to increase monetary supply-).
In the end, the general public (and specially the ones in need) were always going to pay the consequences of the decision. And all of this wasn't unpredictable at all, it was there in plain view.
Yes it was probably the easiest thing to predict ever.
They have raised barriers to the EU and to the rest of the world even though they do not realise it yet.
The Brexiters and the Brexit media are still conning the public with the 'it hasn't been properly implemented' or 'it will get better in time'
It won't because it can't.
You'd think so, but there a lot of really dumb folks out there, a lot more that we probably like to admit!
I live in the US, where apparently 10's of millions of people will vote for Trump even if he's a convicted criminal in jail, it's impossible to quantify the level of stupidity that exists!
Maybe dude, but not necessarily.
I manage two dose prep labs at work for field trials. I’ve also been developing a little side business for the last 9 years that involves storing and sub sampling chemicals (dangerous goods) for global distribution. Been a bit of a labour of love for me.
Brexit has been a disaster for us. Whereas before there were seemingly no customs barriers to speak of, only conformity checks, now we have to deal with 26 individual member states all with their own individual import practices and regulations.
Part of our contract promises a 5 working day turnaround but Brexit stopped that almost overnight as customs checks suddenly appeared, everything got bottlenecked and some countries now require phytosanitary certificates for import, which take on average 10 working days from application to issuing.
Also, Germany, Poland, Romania and even Spain to a lesser degree are so difficult to ship to. Often with long, protracted and often futile customs checks that make it so hard we actually send to our base in Ireland for forwarding on. More than doubling our own costs in the process which we have to pass on to our clients.
So, where we used to be fast and reasonably priced, we’re now slow and very expensive. We’ve lost clients because of it and I’ve now had to solely focus on accepting UK only based clients which is very sad.
The annoying thing is, our work told us managers not to discuss Brexit at the time and not sway people’s voting intentions in any way. 2 of the guys on my team voted for Brexit and then subsequently left the role when sh*t got real.
Brexit was, predictably, a bit of a fecking disaster. My partner at the time and all her family all voted for Brexit. They were Greek and angry about the EU all the time. I wonder what they all think of it now? Wonder if they rue their decisions?
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That bit is particularly irritating. Don’t like how another country fared so vote to feck another
That bit is particularly irritating. Don’t like how another country fared so vote to feck another
Also all the fecking ex pat Brits that voted Brexit while sitting over in their houses in Spain and France! Beggars belief the stupidity and selfishness of these people. One small victory from it all is the fact it came back to bite a lot of them on the arse with the changes in laws regarding foreign residency in a lot of these countries, which means they were forced to return to the UK that’s now in a much worse state to the one they left all thanks to their vote, oh the irony.
I think that I know what you mean but it is not the laws that have changed but the status of these expats.
Ah, my mistake, cheers for the correction. Anyway, the point I was making was the sheer selfishness and stupidity of these people voting for something which would have such disastrous consequences for a country they don’t even live in anymore while reaping all the benefits of the exact union they voted for Britain to leave in the first place!
Yes dude. It was a difficult time, especially the big family meals, they could get very lively, usually in direct proportion to the amount of red wine that was drunk.That bit is particularly irritating. Don’t like how another country fared so vote to feck another
But that's the thing, many of them don't reap the benefits of the EU because they are not EU citizens anymore. They are foreigners and treated as such which has been received by some as the EU punishing the UK when those laws predate Brexit. That topic is an example of the BS surrounding Brexit, the UK had the opportunity to create similar laws and apply them which is what was told to Cameron when he tried to negotiate a deal for the UK that existed since 2002-2003 for everyone.
Not only the people you are talking about took a selfish decision but they also voted for something that would make them foreigners, all of that because they had no clue about what they were talking about.
I call it the little Englander complex, they think reality doesn't apply to them because they're English
These are the same people that used to go on holiday back in the day, to Spain or wherever, and then moan that the food and beer wasn't like the stuff they got at home
Can imagine!
A side effect of Brexit is that my son has just got an Irish passport to make working in Greece easier. He would likely have previously applied for a UK passport but now it is of no use to him as it no longer provides EU access, and his Irish passport gives him access to the UK as well as the EU.
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In his Sky News interview this morning, Pat McFadden, the shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, said a trade deal could potentially bring big benefits. He said India was about the UK’s 12th biggest trading partner, but that it could be a “huge trading partner”.
Asked whether Labour would be in favour of granting more visas to Indian workers in exchange for trade concessions, he said the party would not rule this out. He replied:
Whether it's the Tories or Labour, they are all completely clueless. Tories don't care and Labour are so wet behind the ears. Making Brexit work!
Asked whether Labour would be in favour of granting more visas to Indian workers in exchange for trade concessions, he said the party would not rule this out. He replied:
Whether it's the Tories or Labour, they are all completely clueless. Tories don't care and Labour are so wet behind the ears. Making Brexit work!
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ermarket-food-in-northern-ireland-brexit-asda
First ‘not for EU’ labels appear on supermarket food in Northern Ireland
Retailers, including the chair of Marks & Spencer, previously attacked the Northern Ireland protocol rules for sending food between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, calling them “highly bureaucratic and pretty pointless”.
He knew what he was voting for when he voted for Brexit
First ‘not for EU’ labels appear on supermarket food in Northern Ireland
Retailers, including the chair of Marks & Spencer, previously attacked the Northern Ireland protocol rules for sending food between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, calling them “highly bureaucratic and pretty pointless”.
He knew what he was voting for when he voted for Brexit
So what should they do?
At the end of the day someone needs to make it work as well as it can work, because it's reality and it's not going away anytime soon
A trade deal worth peanuts with India is not going to help the UK at all. They should stop saying they're going to make Brexit work because it's not possible in any way, shape or form.
If Labour get in at the next GE, Brexit is going to get much worse during their term and there's nothing they can do about it.
So saying that they are going to make it work loses them the next GE in 2029 before they've even started;
Then not much point in winning the election is there?
Everybody needs to vote Tory, then they can 'fix' Brexit.... is that it Paul? You have said yourself even if we went begging bowl in hand the EU would say feck off!
Labour with a sufficiently large majority at the next GE, will start to build the 'new Jerusalem' in a post Brexit Britain... they have no choice!
Don't forget it was a Labour government that after the trauma of WW2, delivered the NHS and Education Acts and change the lives of millions of ordinary folk, they can do it again.
No, it's adopting the completely wrong strategy since 2016 and before. Fence sitters Corbyn and Starmer were so scared of their own shadow. Starmer won't dare do or say anything that may possibly damage the chance of him spending a few years in no.10.
How is Starmer going to build post Brexit Britain when the country and economy is going down the toilet and that will speed up over the coming years.
After WW2 there were means to rebuild the country. What's he going to do, go with a begging bowl round the Commonwealth countries hoping that they will buy things. It's already obvious that is not going to happen and they've got nothing to sell. I say already, it was obvious before the referendum but nobody would listen. They still won't.
Rethink needed.
Do you have any suggestions?
It's already too late for three or four things they should have done but:
Change leader and have someone with guts and personality to get the UK back as close to the EU asap and tell the people the truth that success of Brexit is not possible and show them why it can't possibly work.
It's going to be a long process but not to waste another five or ten years for nothing and make the UK situation even worse just because Starmer wants to be PM for his own benefit and not the benefit of the UK.
Such a person probably couldn't get them elected though, Labour needs to win back a lot of Brexit voters to win a GE, after that shitshow on Question Time in Clacton it's obvious that many are so entrenched that they will not vote for someone proposing what you say is needed, Labour should win in a landslide but I doubt they will
I don't disagree with what you say, but since the 2019 GE there's been no attempt by Labour to try to change people's opinions. People for a while didn't dare mention Brexit and are continually bombarded by Brexit propaganda and lies with no opposition. Labour's ony response is we can do the sh!t slightly better.
The current way it is shaping up, it could result in Starmer getting elected next year . Labour will be destroyed because the country will be in such dire straits when the GE comes up again in 2029 and the Tories will be back in power for another 15 years. Starmer is just short term nothingness.
The Labour party has been 'wandering in the desert' (so to speak) with the wrong strategy ever since Tony Blair's secret/dodgy dossier on arms in Iraq. I would argue even before that in the 1970's and 1980's, but Sir Keir will stop all that, just give him a big enough parliamentary majority after the next GE and watch him go.
Starmer will build a post Brexit Britain because simply he has no choice and everyone knows that now.
to be given that chance Sir Keir has to put forward ideas that will, like the NHS/Education Acts did post WW2 change the lives of millions of ordinary folk and he (as leader), and the Labour party as a party of the people will get one last chance. to turn the tide... out of the ashes of Brexit the Phoenix will rise.
Housing will be a big issue, everyone has a right to have a roof over their head (that doesn't leak) a twenty year programme to build and establish proper living conditions in 'green' type housing, with guaranteed safe water supplies (perhaps a national grid!!)
The poorest and weakest in society will be adequately cared for, the majority have to be not just satisfied with their lot, but very happy with it, because without their support and commitment, nothing will happen, so it's a social contract (now where have we heard that before) that is required first, that involves a continuous improvement commitment in housing, education, employment, water and energy supplies.
Areas were Britain can compete we go in full tilt, those we can't we get out of, food supplies (turnips and all) must be based on our own agricultural capabilities we need 'happy' farmers of all kinds; where we cannot provide ourselves we do 'deals' (of any kind) around the world if necessary and bear the costs/inconvenience associated, without moaning.
We review everything about migration, that rids us, and would be immigrants, of dealing with criminals; but it has to be fair, the rich immigrants as well as the poor have to stand in line. Those with true asylum needs go to the front of the queue, but not necessarily preferential treatment, the country's needs come first, second and third!
Eventually it is likely there will have to be changes to what currently constitutes Britain & NI; with unification in Ireland a real possibility and an Independence for Scotland all being legitimately discussed and considered, including protections for those that don't want change (to be honest not sure how that would work at this stage).
This would all cost money and taxes/codes for everyone even those on benefits (-ve coding) will rise. It will take a long time to fulfill all this, but 'a 1,000 mile journey starts with the first step', (someone once said) and that is what Sir Keir and the Labour Party have to be 'sure-footed' about in their first five year Government, with a good working majority.
The obvious choice is beg the EU to take us back.
The current trend of which ever government in the UK is to destroy British industry, which is and will be the cost of the Brexit because the country has cut itself off from the rest of the world, not just the EU.
The country has to earn money to finance any projects, whatever they are. If they don't earn money there's no money to fund any projects other to vastly increase taxes or borrow heavily.
Immigration is an artificial problem invented by the Tories and supported by Starmer. Immigration will continue to rise exponentially because the current system is designed not to make it work. No legal routes, no staff to process applications and the public are convinced that all the immigrants come on small boats whereas it's a very small percentage.
The immigration policy to only allow skilled labour in higher paid jobs actually creates the obvious effect like in the 60s. British people with skills and qualifications will be competing with immigrants with skills and qualifications. The skilled British people in the 60s left the Uk and went elsewhere.
This leaves the festering problem of who is going to do the menial jobs which are the backbone to the functioning of society. No point growing vegetables if there's nobody to pick them.
Starmer believes all the Brexit media propaganda and is not intelligent or strong enough to stand up to it.
The outcome of Brexit was obvious. The next five/six years are just as easy to predict.
In the end someone has to admit the mistake and stop digging a deeper hole.
The worst of this happened over a period of years, pre,/during Britain's membership of the EU, when the City of London became the centre of Britain's universe
This will happen anyway, that's why a social contract is needed with the British people, in order to enter into this government finance raising with confidence
No, immigration is and will in future become a real problem, its the Tories who are making it 'front and centre' to scare people
We don't have people with the right skills now. The British governments ability to predict skill requirements let alone deficiencies is laughable and has been since the ITB's were defunded and then MSC/ TEC's were allowed to waste monies, trying to keep the unemployment stats down rather than train where necessary. Ironically it was Maggie Thatchers government that tried to reverse things, but other things got in the way!
AI will change some of that otherwise it will be people who cannot do anything else, or deals made for temporary selected labour (might involve immigrants!) from abroad.
Yes if you keep replaying the 'Brexit movie' and expecting the result to change, you yourself Paul have said many times there is no going back, the EU doesn't want us.... even if we went on our knees and dug a hole the right size to boot!
In other words no choice at all. Because you, me and everyone else knows that this is just not going to happen. There will be no begging. The UK will stumble on with essentially a stagnant economy. And those who voted leave will continue to bury their heads in the sand hoping for some kind of miracle which will never materialise while blaming everyone else.
A lot of industry was destroyed before and during EU membership . Brexit will finish it off. It never adapted. Still isn't.
The immigration problem has exploded because of Brexit. Exactly as predicted. But it shouldn't be a such a huge problem if managed correctly. The government want the people to focus on immigration and especially the small boats to distract their attention from how they are destroying the country.
If you put a group of lying , incompetent, unscrupulous people in charge of the country, the people themselves are to blame.
The unemployment stats are a joke, they're made to look good, they're now called economcally inactive.
Why would people come to help out the UK when they have no prospects of making a life. This is not the 19th century even if JRM thinks it is. Occasional seasonal workers are not the solution.
AI made me laugh. Sunak announces he's investing £100m per year over ten years and says the UK is world leading. The EU are investing more than 35 times that and the USA 40 times that.
The Brexit movie has only just begun, it's just the prologue. The Tories and Labour keep hoping and praying that for some unknown reason which nobody can tell us what it is, everything will turn out fine and they keep digging away.
The UK is not returning to the EU any time soon. What I am saying is that the UK keeps drifting further and further away because for that unknown reason it's supposed to able to turn out alright.
But stop going away, admit the mistake , turn around and start making your way back , as long as it may take.
There must be one person in the UK who can inform the rest of the world how Brexit is going to help the UK. (Leaving out all the lies, of course).
Correct, we are not going back, well not in my lifetime (whats left of it). Yes we keep drifting away, it is obvious that would happen and it was even predicted that we would float away (metaphorically speaking) into the North Sea or maybe the Atlantic. Presumably to be able to position ourselves between the US, EU and now possibly BRICS, doing a 'little bit of business' with each, and not to be reliant on just one.
Starmer has no choice he has to go 'all in' with a Social Contract first, then worry about how to pay for it afterwards, the question is when does he release his 'contact'. Risk waiting until he's elected and perhaps losing more than he gains, or going early and be finding that a 'dream' could rapidly turn into a nightmare, with the Tory Press having the dream narrative control stick!
Yes, he is dropping hints about 'war chests' and so on, but these will only last a short time even if they are fully successful. Brexit should have taught British politicians one thing, that a great many people care as much, if not more, about social conditions as they do about economic conditions, mainly because the average person can see the results of not having their own home or security of tenure, of, not being able to get in at the school of their choice unless they move, of 'real' jobs disappearing, or rather, only those wanting 'zero hours' should apply, etc.
I don't know what the figures were but an educated guess would be that something like 70% of those voting for leave knew little if anything about how the EU worked or how Britain's politicians were poor at playing the EU game. So poor at it that they asked the most simplistic question in relation to a most highly complex issue..... "do you want more of the same, or a change"?
We all know the answer to that one, especially in red wall areas. Starmer is not going to make that mistake again.
He will need (at some point) to explain in his Social Contract that the government will borrow 'x' to deliver 'y'; increase taxes to raise 'a' for then to deliver 'b', specify the timescales involved to assess the progress, that achievement will be measured in actual terms delivered not in theoretical projections. These will be massive sums of money spread over various time periods, many of the majority who have to be convinced of its worth to such as them, will not see the end result themselves... and that is 'the rub' for the modern day politician, it's why 'target Net Zero' etc. is very hard to convince people who will be gone from the scene long before its achieved, to make the sacrifices now.
The only chance Starmer has is to make sure the majority of people (those who vote at least) can see the benefit for them and not have to be resigned to their lot, but actually look forward to the resulting change.
Admittedly its a 'big ask' as many philosophers have told us... 'even those who will eventually benefit from change, are often opposed to it to begin with'.
However continuing to day dream about something that will not happen for eons, if at all, is wasteful and just as disastrous in the longer term as voting 'leave' was.
But what you said about the USA, the EU, the Commonwealth countries and all the rest is part of the Brexit lie.
The Brexiters said that the Uk were now free to trade with the rest of the world after leaving the constraints of being tied to the EU. It is a lie. And I've called it out as a lie for over 7 years.
It's not because I think it is a lie. It's because I know it is a lie. I've recounted my professional history many times on here.
After leaving the EU, the UK will not gain additional trade with the USA, the Commonwealth countries, South America, the CPTTP and so on. The only thing is does is put up barriers, not only with EU but with the other countries as well. I guarantee you that. On the financial and services side, that will also gradually ebb away.
The UK were already trading with these countries, that's what I did most of my working life, with a British based company. I haven't come across anyone in the Tory Party or the Labour Party who has the slightest idea how international trade works. Possibly Hilary Benn is the most knowledgeable.
The EU and the USA will always remain the biggest trading partners of the UK unless the UK does up anchor and plants itself off the coast of Madagascar.
Take India, the trade with India is tiny. They don't need the UK. What little trade there is between the UK, is for scrap and some machinery.
Developing markets means a market that starts from a low base and can't afford products made in the UK, EU etc. At best they will buy from local countries such as Japan, Australia etc
Is it just a lie or just ignorance on behalf of the Brexiters.
When they asked -do you want a change? people may well have wanted a change, but not for the worse. Britain desperately needs honest and courageous politicians. I don't see anyone and certainly not Starmer or Sunak. Someone who tells it like it is. I know the press will murder them but if nothing ever changes it will carry on forever more. Someone has got to be brave enough to stop it.
The joke is Farage who sets himself out as some sort of hero of the people , whereas in fact him and Johnson have lied so much to the British people and have done more damage to the UK than anyone in recent history.
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Depressingly true.
I hope you’re wrong, and a part of me thinks you are. But it will be another 15 years or something. The youth of this country are largely pro-EU, almost all the boomers, and definitively all of the silent generation won’t be alive.
I might be being naive but it’s what gets me through the day!
I really do wish that I am wrong. But I try to be realistic. And I honestly can not see anything changing, for at least a generation.
I am not doubting what you say but the fact remains, the UK has to find a way forward without the EU, there simply is no going back, the longer we kid ourselves that we can get back, the more damage is done. Brexit, even the question of Brexit was a mistake, but that was because the wrong question or rather an over simplified question was put by politicians who as you say had no idea what they were doing.
During the last 10-12 years of my working life I had lots of dealings with various Chambers of Commerce across the North West, Yorkshire and parts of the North East and Wales. What was abundantly clear, and this was 4 to 5 years before the Brexit vote, was (and still is) the rundown state of much industry and commerce especially outside the major City's, whether it was Labour or Tory controlled made little difference, indeed many 'rock solid Labour areas (now referred as red wall areas) bore the brunt. You mentioned that nobody voted for a worse change, in many of these areas that wasn't even a comparison to made, any change would have to be better, especially if, as was sold to the population, after we were out of the EU that it would be our politicians who were responsible and no EU to hide behind.
A large, even an immense social change is needed and that is where Starmer (I believe, is heading). This isn't the old fashioned 'nationalisation' policies revisited, although some public ownership will be required in some areas, but it starts by putting the majority of people at the heart of it, those able and willing to work will become the new favoured group for Starmer. Those people who everyday make the countries wheels go around have to be more than supported, they have to be energised, with good housing, education, social welfare and health services provision, as a bare minimum.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, changes to the very fabric of what constitutes the 'British Isles' may well have to be faced and resolved as part of this social contract. Possibly for the first time a modern day written constitution for these Islands, the needs associated with climate change, migration, water/energy supplies, etc will ensure that.
The way we do everything will have to change.
I understand completely what you are saying.
Everything was left to run down and the politicians were responsible for that. There's no constitution, no accountability and no democracy.
They didn't offer anything good for change - except lies.
They hid behing blaming the EU , even now years after leaving , they say the EU punishing us. No, the UK punished itself. Blaming the EU is not now quite so easy so they turn people's focus more onto immigrants.
But to be able to make any change for the better, the country has got to function.
How is the UK going to function? There's been the Aus/NZ deal, the CPTTP deal, all worthless but told to the people that this is the new way forward. Now a propective new India deal, which again is worthless. You can see that the Brexiters still believe all the nonsense in the press. A new glimmer of hope that isn't there.
So when reality hits, what's the next step? The UK wastes thirty/forty/fifty years because they were conned by the likes of Johnson and Farage and end up rejoining long after we're both dead.
I think they call it 'reinventing yourself!'
If we believe survival on this plant is possible then everything has to change, the 'degrees of change' will depend on individual countries and not trading groups.
Those with the best social contracts with their own populations will survive, but in what form we don't know. Everyone 'singing from the same hymn sheet' would be a good idea. However it's likely that whatever structures exist now, will in fifty or so years have changed radically and that includes trading blocks. Yes, the option to join the EU may present itself but I suspect it won't, for political rather than economic reasons.
The fact is we just don't know what the world will be like in fifty years time, we have to deal with the here and now. I am hopeful as the likely new PM, that Starmer has a plan for change, radical change.... but to quote the famous star trek line... "its change Paul, but not as we know it"
Things change of course, but not as much as one would think. My immediate concern for the UK is how they get past 2030. It will be called another Project Fear which turned out to be Project Reality which hasn't finished yet. The worst part of the first stage after Brexit is from 2024 to 2029. Let's see what people's views are after that. Starmer will probably be in charge during the worst time.