Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[endless_wheelies]

Was nice knowing Labour.

Honestly is there any point to Jeremy Corbyn?

 

[Unmutual]

True, but even then you'd have expected him to make some effort to come up with a general, unified position from the party; as it stands he's alienating Remain voters while not doing much to win over Leave voters...while further confirming the disagreements within the party on just about everything.

Trouble is he has no authority in the party, not even among his allies. Even people like Abbott, McDonnell & Lewis are coming out with different views on what happens next, never mind the rebellious backbenchers. For Labour to come to a unified position would involve a great number of people shutting up and trusting Corbyn to get the job done. Everyone knows he can't, so everyone's doing their own thing.

 

[berbatrick]

Its illegal to drink drive, not open to interpretation

How old are you? Did you used to follow the news in general before Brexit?

 

[Stanley Road]

How old are you? Did you used to follow the news in general before Brexit?

50 and you?

 

[Walrus]

Honestly is there any point to Jeremy Corbyn?

Thing is, the major parties (read: Tories and Labour) realise/think it would be political suicide to contest Brexit at this point, even though the margin of victory for "Leave" was so small etc.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Thing is, the major parties (read: Tories and Labour) realise/think it would be political suicide to contest Brexit at this point, even though the margin of victory for "Leave" was so small etc.

Actually I think if Labour were to oppose Brexit they'd make massive gains. They could swell anti-Brexit/Conservative sentiment enough to force a General Election then get in with a joint government with the Lib Dems. I have a suspicion that's what the attempted coup last year was about.

 

[GhastlyHun]

50 and you?

So you should be familiar with the purpose of supreme courts.

 

[Cheesy]

Actually I think if Labour were to oppose Brexit they'd make massive gains. They could swell anti-Brexit/Conservative sentiment enough to force a General Election then get in with a joint government with the Lib Dems. I have a suspicion that's what the attempted coup last year was about.

That'd be the general aim but I do think they'd get a bit of backlash from going so strongly against public opinion. Still, though, they need to come up with some sort of stance, and they've not done that at all. Individual members have different thoughts, seemingly on both sides of the Labour spectrum, and Corbyn's not doing anything at all to unite them, either in opposition or favour. It's getting increasingly annoying because for someone who fought so hard to ensure he remained leader, he's not really doing any leading at all.

Think I'd concede to the likes of @Ubik and @Classical Mechanic they were correct last year in their opposition to Corbyn. I'd say in retrospect Burnham might have been the better choice. Not brilliant, but someone who could've come up with some sort of general stance on the issue.

 

[berbatrick]

50 and you?

Half your age, but I've seen dissenting judges before, it's not unheard of!

 

[Walrus]

Actually I think if Labour were to oppose Brexit they'd make massive gains. They could swell anti-Brexit/Conservative sentiment enough to force a General Election then get in with a joint government with the Lib Dems. I have a suspicion that's what the attempted coup last year was about.

I agree, I think there is a huge untapped market simply for remainers, for whom the promise to stop Brexit would be enough to win their vote. Its almost appealing to the lowest common denominator (which is exactly what happened with the original referendum anyway so hard to feel guilty about it).

 

[endless_wheelies]

That'd be the general aim but I do think they'd get a bit of backlash from going so strongly against public opinion. Still, though, they need to come up with some sort of stance, and they've not done that at all. Individual members have different thoughts, seemingly on both sides of the Labour spectrum, and Corbyn's not doing anything at all to unite them, either in opposition or favour. It's getting increasingly annoying because for someone who fought so hard to ensure he remained leader, he's not really doing any leading at all.

Think I'd concede to the likes of @Ubik and @Classical Mechanic they were correct last year in their opposition to Corbyn. I'd say in retrospect Burnham might have been the better choice. Not brilliant, but someone who could've come up with some sort of general stance on the issue.

And lose what? Besides, most of their supporters voted remain (thanks to London).

 

[Cheesy]

And lose what? Besides, most of their supporters voted remain (thanks to London).

True. I'm not sure it'd be an easy win, right enough. And there'd be the whole moral issue of denying the will of the people etc, and looking condescending to those who voted Leave. But it'd at least be a stance, which would be something.

 

[Green_Red]

True. I'm not sure it'd be an easy win, right enough. And there'd be the whole moral issue of denying the will of the people etc, and looking condescending to those who voted Leave. But it'd at least be a stance, which would be something.

Do you think theyd actually do it?

Are votes private in parliament?

 

[Gasolin]

Government loses appeal.

Good they lost, but not good enough has parliament will have very little say in the process itself though.

So it's still on, and it's a big win for the government still.

 

[sun_tzu]

Was nice knowing Labour.

Red Tories...
At least Blair would have stood by his principals...
Momentum should deselect Corbyn etc etc

 

[711]

Good question on Newsnight, where have all the Tory Remainers gone?
Cameron felt forced to put the referendum in his election manifesto as a delaying tactic, for two reasons, the internal threat to his leadership from the anti-EU wing, and externally to counter the electoral threat from UKIP.
Fortunately for him, his main opposition (Labour, believe it or not) were screwed up even more than his party was, as it turned out.
Anyway, Tory Remainers, the big beasts like Clarke and Heseltine might be a shade superannuated, but is that it, where are the others? Osborne, Cameron himself? Cowards from beginning to end as far as I can see.

 

[Cheesy]

Good question on Newsnight, where have all the Tory Remainers gone?
Cameron felt forced to put the referendum in his election manifesto as a delaying tactic for two reasons, the internal threat to his leadership from the anti-EU wing, and externally to counter the electoral threat from UKIP.
Fortunately for him, his main opposition (Labour, believe it or not) were screwed up even more his party was, as it's turned out.
Anyway, Tory Remainers, yeah, the big beasts like Clarke and Heseltine might be somewhat past it, but is that it, where are the others? Osborne, Cameron himself? Cowards from beginning to end as far as I can see.

Osborne made a few noises here and there, and his interesting tweet saying the demise of Labour wouldn't be good for democracy suggests that he wouldn't mind seeing some strong Remain voices make themselves known, but apart from that there's been little.

Clarke's been excellent in general, and Soubry's been okay too, considering she's faced a fair bit of abuse. Apart from that, though...

 

[711]

I'm a Clarke admirer, as much as a Labour geezer can be, but he's old, very old, and that's about it really. Brexit it is, then.

 

[Sweet Square]

Actually I think if Labour were to oppose Brexit they'd make massive gains. They could swell anti-Brexit/Conservative sentiment enough to force a General Election then get in with a joint government with the Lib Dems. I have a suspicion that's what the attempted coup last year was about.

Farron has pretty said he'd rather go into joint government with the Tories than Labour.

 

[Smores]

And lose what? Besides, most of their supporters voted remain (thanks to London).

I think thats only true on individual voters but not based on constituencies, although i could be wrong but im sure i checked.

I completely disagree with your approach though, opinion polls are showing they don't want a second referendum and any approach for out right blocking article 50 won't be popular. I think Stammer is doing a decent job of putting forth Labours stance will be about red lines and not blocking brexit on principle.

I'd rather Labour went all out to block it as i don't want us to leave but i think it would be a disaster and cement Labour as out of touch with working class Britain. The arguments already lost sadly.

 

[Adisa]

Farron has pretty said he'd rather go into joint government with the Tories than Labour.

Don't think that's what he said. Just said he would not rule anything out.

 

[Sweet Square]

Don't think that's what he said. Just said he would not rule anything out.

He's made it clear for a while now that he won't go anyway near Labour with Corbyn in charge(Part of that is due to economic policy of the Labour Party) and hasn't ruled out the Tories. It's pretty clear.

 

[Kentonio]

I think thats only true on individual voters but not based on constituencies, although i could be wrong but im sure i checked.

I completely disagree with your approach though, opinion polls are showing they don't want a second referendum and any approach for out right blocking article 50 won't be popular. I think Stammer is doing a decent job of putting forth Labours stance will be about red lines and not blocking brexit on principle.

I'd rather Labour went all out to block it as i don't want us to leave but i think it would be a disaster and cement Labour as out of touch with working class Britain. The arguments already lost sadly.

In this case though the opinion polls are probably being driven by the situation. In the immediate aftermath of July, if a coherent opposition to Brexit had been formed with clear objectives, then we'd have a fight on our hands. Instead Labour imploded, the Tory Remainers slunk away and we're left with a country in political chaos and the public just wanting a clear direction from someone, anyone moving forward.

I was always suspicious of Corbyn but gave him a chance because he was the only leader talking about reducing income inequality and reducing the power of corporatism. He has however been an utter embarrassment, and I will never forgive him for that. He's a Leave supporter representing a party massively pro-Remain and he lacked the courage to openly nail his colours to the mast, and instead just quietly sabotaged his own team. The media were wildly inappropriate towards him since the day he took the reins, but he has done nothing to turn that around. Ivory tower socialist with the political instincts of a sixth former. Absolute disgrace.

 

[Stanley Road]

Has Corbyn ever been anything but anti EU? To think otherwise is daft

 

[Kentonio]

Has Corbyn ever been anything but anti EU? To think otherwise is daft

Of course, so taking on a supposed leadership role in the Remain campaign was fundamentally dishonest.

 

[Stanley Road]

Of course, so taking on a supposed leadership role in the Remain campaign was fundamentally dishonest.

Id say he's the least dishonest person out there

 

[Minimalist]

Has Corbyn ever been anything but anti EU? To think otherwise is daft

It's fine if that's his stance.

However it does feel like we are witnessing the ultimate demise of the Labour party. Half the country don't want Brexit and their opportunity to be a legit opposition is vanishing even further with this stance.

 

[Untied]

May cosying up to Trump whilst trying to negotiate a good deal for Britain exiting the EU with the EU, is one of the dumbest foreign policy decisions imaginable.

 

[jackofalltrades]

So May says she'll walk out if she thinks the deal is not good enough for the UK. What happens then ?

 

[Stanley Road]

So May says she'll walk out if she thinks the deal is not good enough for the UK. What happens then ?

Trade with tariffs i guess

 

[Stanley Road]

It's fine if that's his stance.

However it does feel like we are witnessing the ultimate demise of the Labour party. Half the country don't want Brexit and their opportunity to be a legit opposition is vanishing even further with this stance.

I prefer people that stand up for their beliefs, did not like his half hearted pro eu stance. So the 48% feel unrepresented, time for clegg to make a comeback then.

 

[Kentonio]

Id say he's the least dishonest person out there

If he's anti-EU but ran as a major Remain figure, then he's dishonest.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Surely MPs have to take decisions with respect to their constituents, party, nation and conscience. At times they will come into conflict.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Surely MPs have to take decisions with respect to their constituents, party, nation and conscience. At times they will come into conflict.

When they come into conflict, most MPs will do whatever is necessary to get re-elected.

 

[Smores]

It's fine if that's his stance.

However it does feel like we are witnessing the ultimate demise of the Labour party. Half the country don't want Brexit and their opportunity to be a legit opposition is vanishing even further with this stance.

Less than half really, i dont think we can count those who couldn't be bothered to vote as suddenly opposed to anything. We're an angry minority in truth.

In the past ive argued principle over votes so I'm now being a bit hypocritical saying its the right call to go with the country but equally i think some criticising Labour here are only doing so out of frustration they aren't working towards the outcome that suits them. Labour represents more than remain voters.

 

[Kentonio]

Labour represents more than remain voters.

What do they represent now? I don't think I know anymore.

 

[Minimalist]

Less than half really, i dont think we can count those who couldn't be bothered to vote as suddenly opposed to anything. We're an angry minority in truth.

In the past ive argued principle over votes so I'm now being a bit hypocritical saying its the right call to go with the country but equally i think some criticising Labour here are only doing so out of frustration they aren't working towards the outcome that suits them. Labour represents more than remain voters.

Half of the people who voted - 48%.

Those who didn't vote clearly don't give a shit either way or probably would have kept things the same.

 

[Unmutual]

Less than half really, i dont think we can count those who couldn't be bothered to vote as suddenly opposed to anything. We're an angry minority in truth.

In the past ive argued principle over votes so I'm now being a bit hypocritical saying its the right call to go with the country but equally i think some criticising Labour here are only doing so out of frustration they aren't working towards the outcome that suits them. Labour represents more than remain voters.

Most people who voted Remain would love Labour to stand squarely behind the Remain vote, that's true. However an acceptable alternative, for me at least, would be to commit to continued single market membership in some sort of EFTA style model. That would likely be the best possible version of Brexit for Remainers, while also honouring the outcome of the referendum. That way a lot of Remainers could at least support it as the best option we're likely to get.

But the version of Brexit that Labour are talking about is hardly distinguishable from what the Tories are offering, hence Starmer's caveated approval of the Lancaster House speech. All Labour's disagreements are on process, not outcome, with the exception of state aid rules. That means Labour aren't even trying to find a compromise position between the Remain vote and the Leave vote, they're just talking the language of Leave.

So given a choice between the Tories hard Brexit and Labour's hard Brexit-lite, many Remainers are just like, pfft, sod the pair of em.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Most people who voted Remain would love Labour to stand squarely behind the Remain vote, that's true. However an acceptable alternative, for me at least, would be to commit to continued single market membership in some sort of EFTA style model. That would likely be the best possible version of Brexit for Remainers, while also honouring the outcome of the referendum. That way a lot of Remainers could at least support it as the best option we're likely to get.

But the version of Brexit that Labour are talking about is hardly distinguishable from what the Tories are offering, hence Starmer's caveated approval of the Lancaster House speech. All Labour's disagreements are on process, not outcome, with the exception of state aid rules. That means Labour aren't even trying to find a compromise position between the Remain vote and the Leave vote, they're just talking the language of Leave.

So given a choice between the Tories hard Brexit and Labour's hard Brexit-lite, many Remainers are just like, pfft, sod the pair of em.

It is not possible to negotiate that with the EU given the restrictions it would place on the UK.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

May cosying up to Trump whilst trying to negotiate a good deal for Britain exiting the EU with the EU, is one of the dumbest foreign policy decisions imaginable.

If it looks like a deal can be made swiftly with the US that strengthens the UK position.

Trumps EU ambassador thinks the Euro will fail inside 18 months and Trump thinks he can trust Putin as much as Merkel.

Remember when politics was boring?