Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Smores]

He's right in much of what he says, can't believe he doesn't realise he's hindrance to that message being listened to though.

He's right with some of it, maybe most but he's the worst person to be the messenger. For one because you can lay the blame for brexit at his door and secondly the hypocrisy of him claiming voters were misled.

He doesn't care though he's only doing it for his own interests. Best thing for everyone would be to ignore him.

 

[Ubik]

I'd say it's pretty unlikely he's doing it for himself or for anti-Corbyn reasons, the EU is one of the few things he's rigidly ideological on and it's hard to disagree that there's a severe dearth of effective people championing that argument, Labour having largely given up in all wings of the party. But when he continually insists on refusing to acknowledge that Iraq was a colossal mistake, people aren't going to take him seriously.

 

[Unmutual]

He's right with some of it, maybe most but he's the worst person to be the messenger.

Who else? Reality is that the pro-EU camp have completely collapsed. The only people making the pro-EU argument are Farron and Lucas, who are so insubstantial that the Daily Mail can't even be bothered to attack them.

Someone high profile has to say something, and whoever it it is going to take a serious shoeing. May as well let Blair take the worst of it, maybe it'll allow other people to step in afterwards.

 

[Smores]

I'd say it's pretty unlikely he's doing it for himself or for anti-Corbyn reasons, the EU is one of the few things he's rigidly ideological on and it's hard to disagree that there's a severe dearth of effective people championing that argument, Labour having largely given up in all wings of the party. But when he continually insists on refusing to acknowledge that Iraq was a colossal mistake, people aren't going to take him seriously.

Oh come on, he's friends/aligned with a lot of people who are against brexit and then you've got the fact he makes his career on being relevant. He's taken a reputational hit over chilcot, this is nothing but PR for him so he can make more money down the road.

 

[Smores]

Who else? Reality is that the pro-EU camp have completely collapsed. The only people making the pro-EU argument are Farron and Lucas, who are so insubstantial that the Daily Mail can't even be bothered to attack them.

Someone high profile has to say something, and whoever it it is going to take a serious shoeing. May as well let Blair take the worst of it, maybe it'll allow other people to step in afterwards.

How about anyone else? Blairs actions are responsible for the idea they were flooding in from Europe in the first place, he's one of the main reasons Labour aren't trusted on immigration. All this will do is remind people of this further, its damaging to Labour.

Nearly all the anti-eu arguments trace back to his goverment.

 

[Dobba]

Can only see one party winning the next election now.

 

[Ubik]

Oh come on, he's friends/aligned with a lot of people who are against brexit and then you've got the fact he makes his career on being relevant. He's taken a reputational hit over chilcot, this is nothing but PR for him so he can make more money down the road.

He's friends with those people largely because he's the most unabashed europhile around. He came out of hiding during the 2015 election campaign to make a single speech, that you should vote Labour because if the Tories got in you'd risk leaving the EU.

I don't doubt that he's a chronic self-publicist who resents his image being tarnished, but saying that he's only interested in talking about the EU to keep his friends and get paid to make speeches is akin to saying Corbyn only makes anti-Trident stands so he can speak at CND rallies.

 

[Unmutual]

How about anyone else? Blairs actions are responsible for the idea they were flooding in from Europe in the first place, he's one of the main reasons Labour aren't trusted on immigration. All this will do is remind people of this further, its damaging to Labour.

Nearly all the anti-eu arguments trace back to his goverment.

The latter is highly debatable, to say the least.

But ignoring that, its easy to say "anyone", but who? Can you name a single person with anything like the level of profile needed to get the debate going again? I'm struggling to think of someone.

 

[Smores]

He's friends with those people largely because he's the most unabashed europhile around. He came out of hiding during the 2015 election campaign to make a single speech, that you should vote Labour because if the Tories got in you'd risk leaving the EU.

I don't doubt that he's a chronic self-publicist who resents his image being tarnished, but saying that he's only interested in talking about the EU to keep his friends and get paid to make speeches is akin to saying Corbyn only makes anti-Trident stands so he can speak at CND rallies.

Perhaps im just a cynic

Still he wasn't in hiding he was touting himself round the middle east, now there's a market here on which he can pitch himself as an expert. If he doesn't come out as some point that he's doing a lot of highly paid work ill be shocked. Maybe he just sees this as a fhance to redeem his reputation there's always that.

Either way think all sides agree politically it isn't helpful.

 

[Smores]

The latter is highly debatable, to say the least.

But ignoring that, its easy to say "anyone", but who? Can you name a single person with anything like the level of profile needed to get the debate going again? I'm struggling to think of someone.

The european project, euro, and immigration are all on him. Have we forgotten his warnings about not integrating further and it would all be a huge mistake?

To be honest i dont think the issue needs a poster boy, its being debated in the house and Lords and the media are covering it. It doesn't need its profile raised. MPs have been doing a good job if anyone bothered to listen in on the debates. You could argue someone is needed to make visible this work but that's only for public sentiment its not going to change anything.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

BBC:

2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties

^ An amusing footnote that i was reading earlier. One of those roads not taken.

Its likely that those people you mention don't even know what GDP is or even what percentages are.

Now I'm not saying they are stupid...

No, of course not, i don't even know why you felt the need for a clarification.

I'd say it's pretty unlikely he's doing it for himself or for anti-Corbyn reasons, the EU is one of the few things he's rigidly ideological on and it's hard to disagree that there's a severe dearth of effective people championing that argument, Labour having largely given up in all wings of the party. But when he continually insists on refusing to acknowledge that Iraq was a colossal mistake, people aren't going to take him seriously.

But even that was in part a self-serving act, on account of his ambition to be the first President of Europe.

 

[Adisa]

Toni Blair was right in a lot of the things he said.
However, why can't he see that a lot of what he says will be taken badly, simply because it's coming from his mouth?

 

[LuisNaniencia]

feck me, did Boris Big Red Bus Johnson actually call it a "condescending campaign"?

It may well be but he's got no fecking right to talk about it.

 

[Unmutual]

To be honest i dont think the issue needs a poster boy, its being debated in the house and Lords and the media are covering it. It doesn't need its profile raised. MPs have been doing a good job if anyone bothered to listen in on the debates. You could argue someone is needed to make visible this work but that's only for public sentiment its not going to change anything.

Some joke surely? What's happening in the House is a disaster for people who support the EU, with May being given a free hand to do what she wants, and Labour offering no opposition. The Lords daren't make anything other than tiny tweaks to A50 given that the unamended bill got a majority of nearly 500 in the other place. And you can't really claim that the media is giving the pro-EU argument a fair hearing, can you?

 

[Smores]

Some joke surely? What's happening in the House is a disaster for people who support the EU, with May being given a free hand to do what she wants, and Labour offering no opposition. The Lords daren't make anything other than tiny tweaks to A50 given that the unamended bill got a majority of nearly 500 in the other place. And you can't really claim that the media is giving the pro-EU argument a fair hearing, can you?

MPs in the house are doing exactly what they should, they've quite thoroughly and at length repeatedly laid out their concerns but at the same time voted to respect the referendum result. Voting to respect the referendum is not the same thing as offering no opposition.

May will do what she wants, she's got a majority.

Blair putting his PR expertise on what MPs are already saying wont change anything.

 

[Sweet Square]

How about anyone else? Blairs actions are responsible for the idea they were flooding in from Europe in the first place, he's one of the main reasons Labour aren't trusted on immigration. All this will do is remind people of this further, its damaging to Labour.

Nearly all the anti-eu arguments trace back to his goverment.

He couldn't even resist getting in a bit of xenophobia/racism as well. He's a fecking cnut.

 

[Ubik]

I'm not sure how people can say opposition to Brexit is going well when in the space of a few months, hard Brexit has become the default option. The only real "victory" that's been won is forcing a vote to occur in the Commons, which itself basically just resulted in the Opposition looking ridiculous again. May has absolutely no threat from her left so is happy hoovering up all lapsing Ukippers to her right.

 

[Unmutual]

To be honest i dont think the issue needs a poster boy, its being debated in the house and Lords and the media are covering it. It doesn't need its profile raised. MPs have been doing a good job if anyone bothered to listen in on the debates. You could argue someone is needed to make visible this work but that's only for public sentiment its not going to change anything.

Suggesting that a prime minister can do as they please if they have a majority is a obviously not true. PMs know that if they fail to meet the wishes of the public too much for too long, they're dead meat. A PMs power comes from public approval.

May knows she has to satisfy the public's expectations on Brexit. As such the battle for what kind of Brexit we see is as much about winning over the public as it is winning in the House.

Those expectations come in part from what people see and hear in the press. And all they've seen and heard for 7 months is what the hard Brexiteers have been saying. The pro-Eu argument has been nowhere. Whether that's advocating for staying in the EU if the deal is bad, or wanting a close relationship the EU in the deal, it flows from the same argument.

Leaving on WTO terms should be the ultimate red line. The idea that it would be better to do that than stay in the EU is anathema to Remainers. And yet if we sit back and blithely allow the pro-Brexiteers to dominate the landscape, then as we approach end of negotiations, if May doesn't get a good deal (a very real possibility) then people will think it's a decent backup option.

As we saw with A50, sitting back to wait and see what happens doesn't work. Your opponents set the agenda. We need to be making the argument clearly all the way along. And right no, no-ones doing that.

 

[Mozza]

Oh come on, he's friends/aligned with a lot of people who are against brexit and then you've got the fact he makes his career on being relevant. He's taken a reputational hit over chilcot, this is nothing but PR for him so he can make more money down the road.

He could make more money without doing this

 

[Simbo]

Call me a sucker but I reckon Blair just gives a shit, I'd do the same in his shoes. The opposition is dead and does need a poster boy, lib dems are useless. There could maybe be someone better than Blair but he is a damn sight better than Boris, Gove and Farage.

 

[2cents]

Blair without the Iraq fiasco - where do we reckon his legacy would stand?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Blair without the Iraq fiasco - where do we reckon his legacy would stand?

He'd still have a tonne of economic negatives, many of which have come to the surface since his departure from office. You can also trace issues regarding devolution and the EU back to the days of New Labour. And given Blair'ss mindset on overseas intervention, the chances are that we'd have sent British forces somewhere else.

 

[Dobba]

Call me a sucker but I reckon Blair just gives a shit, I'd do the same in his shoes. The opposition is dead and does need a poster boy, lib dems are useless. There could maybe be someone better than Blair but he is a damn sight better than Boris, Gove and Farage.

Just make sure he always stands behind a small wall so nobody can see the blood stained money overflowing his pockets.

 

[Cheesy]

Blair without the Iraq fiasco - where do we reckon his legacy would stand?

Perhaps arguably in a similar manner to Thatcher - one of the greatest PM's we've had if you like him, towards the opposite end if not. Arguably contributed to some of the problems we have now but largely led an era of relative prosperity, at least in his first term or two. I'd take him in a heartbeat over Cameron or May.

 

[Untied]

Toni Blair was right in a lot of the things he said.
However, why can't he see that a lot of what he says will be taken badly, simply because it's coming from his mouth?

It was a great speech and I think Blair is well aware that people will dismiss it simply because it was made by him, but he has stepped in because no-one else is doing so.

 

[devilish]

Given the circumstances today, if Trump decides to invade a nation with the blessing of nations such as Saudi and he asks the UK to join, do you honestly think that Global Britain would refuse? Its very easy to condemn Blair, but you mustn't forget that back then the US was lead by a similar cry baby to Trump. The US had bailed the UK in two world wars, it enjoys a great financial relationship with the US and the US treats the UK as an equal rather then some country whose 1/3 of Texas for the mere reason that its a partner the US can depend on. I was anti Iraqi war but I must admit that the pressure for the UK to join that war was ridiculously high.

The funny thing is that one one hand Brexiteers ridicule Blair for caving in to Bush and on the other hand they pushed this country in a situation when they simply have to cave in to the US because they don't really have a choice. During Blair's administration the UK was a proud member of the EU. That gave the UK unrestricted access to the single market. Brexit Britain is desperate for a deal with the US because to give them some credibility in the world fora.

 

[Stanley Road]

Have you been on holiday?

 

[Simbo]

Given the circumstances today, if Trump decides to invade a nation with the blessing of nations such as Saudi and he asks the UK to join, do you honestly think that Global Britain would refuse? Its very easy to condemn Blair, but you mustn't forget that back then the US was lead by a similar cry baby to Trump. The US had bailed the UK in two world wars, it enjoys a great financial relationship with the US and the US treats the UK as an equal rather then some country whose 1/3 of Texas for the mere reason that its a partner the US can depend on. I was anti Iraqi war but I must admit that the pressure for the UK to join that war was ridiculously high.

You have a point sure, but Trump is a a whole different kind of fish to Blair or any other western leader in modern history. Resistance to any decision by him to invade a country would be monumental in the UK and anywhere else. Blair could go with Bush cos he had the support of the British people. Maybe he lied to do it but in the wake of 911 it was easy enough for him to gather enough support either way. Trump can't make a valid argument for anything. Unless there are clear-cut reasons to take action somewhere like NK starting nuclear war or something, I don't think there is any chance a British PM could support Trump in a war.

 

[711]

You have a point sure, but Trump is a a whole different kind of fish to Blair or any other western leader in modern history. Resistance to any decision by him to invade a country would be monumental in the UK and anywhere else. Blair could go with Bush cos he had the support of the British people. Maybe he lied to do it but in the wake of 911 it was easy enough for him to gather enough support either way. Trump can't make a valid argument for anything. Unless there are clear-cut reasons to take action somewhere like NK starting nuclear war or something, I don't think there is any chance a British PM could support Trump in a war.

Good analysis, quite a contrast.

 

[Ubik]

It was a great speech and I think Blair is well aware that people will dismiss it simply because it was made by him, but he has stepped in because no-one else is doing so.

I was thinking about it yesterday after Unmutual said similar and it's true, there really is no-one of stature left to make the case. So depressing.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

The main reason why Tories won the GE was Nick Clegg. He screwed the liberals by making a deal to prop up Cameron and then screwed them even harder by propping up their policies too.

The split of Liberal voters caused a major shift in balanced areas and Cameron managed to gain 24 seats with only 0.9% more of the vote than in the previous election. Both Labour and Conservatives made gains in voters and Labour in fact made even bigger gains than the Conservatives but it wasn't able to capitalise in key balanced areas.

One of the main reasons for that was Camerons tactics with the debates where he put in front of the people a bigger choice of candidates witg similar policies who despite not having any chance of ruling the country would have every chance to sway voters. By changing the fabric of the election from a two horse race to one centre right in conservative and several centre left parties he effectively killed any logical gains Labour should have made from the Lib Dems.

They played it brilliantly by instilling the fear of Ed being propped up by the SNP in the very likely event of a hung parliament while playing down the UKIP connection at the same time on their end because they were only looking for a majority government. It forced Labour to keep denying this. It was Cameron who gave SNP the platform to destroy Labour in Scotland.

Utimately played into the hands of the grand puppet master Murdoch's propaganda machines and they have done so for decades so I don't know why we even bother.

I will repeat what I said before, screw you Nick Clegg!

Whilst there's no doubt a lot of truth in the points regarding the Liberal and Tory destabilisation of Labour, the platform for the SNP to destroy Labour began long ago in the 90s with tuition fees and was completed when the invasion of Iraq.

Quite simply, to hit the political middle ground in England Labour had to move so right they were no longer representave of general Scottish public opinion. This is an issue in lots of England too, but in Scotland the SNP saw a gap and they filled it. Labour are dead in Scotland even though, ironically, they now have a leaser who, Eurosceptiscism aside, would have been more popular because they are seen to have betrayed lots of core values that Labour were meant to have when in government.

This also fuels the independance movement in Scotland, because if you go through all those years of Tory governments, to then get a disapointingly right wing Labour, followed by a series of increasingly right wing governments and populist movements in England it starts to seem that the only escape is constitutional change. In short, the nationalist movement in Scotland is broadly driven by the left (and that will lead to problems soon enough as nationalist and left wing principles are not natural bedfellows).

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Given the circumstances today, if Trump decides to invade a nation with the blessing of nations such as Saudi and he asks the UK to join, do you honestly think that Global Britain would refuse? Its very easy to condemn Blair, but you mustn't forget that back then the US was lead by a similar cry baby to Trump. The US had bailed the UK in two world wars, it enjoys a great financial relationship with the US and the US treats the UK as an equal rather then some country whose 1/3 of Texas for the mere reason that its a partner the US can depend on. I was anti Iraqi war but I must admit that the pressure for the UK to join that war was ridiculously high.

The funny thing is that one one hand Brexiteers ridicule Blair for caving in to Bush and on the other hand they pushed this country in a situation when they simply have to cave in to the US because they don't really have a choice. During Blair's administration the UK was a proud member of the EU. That gave the UK unrestricted access to the single market. Brexit Britain is desperate for a deal with the US because to give them some credibility in the world fora.

Honestly! its come to this?

 

[Pexbo]

Toni Blair was right in a lot of the things he said.
However, why can't he see that a lot of what he says will be taken badly, simply because it's coming from his mouth?

Because, unbelievably considering how far he got and how far he has been since, he has absolutely zero self awareness.

 

[Dobba]

Because, unbelievably considering how far he got and how far he has been since, he has absolutely zero self awareness.

Self awareness isn't a money maker or blood lust satisifier so he's not interested in acquiring any.

 

[711]

Given the circumstances today, if Trump decides to invade a nation with the blessing of nations such as Saudi and he asks the UK to join, do you honestly think that Global Britain would refuse? Its very easy to condemn Blair, but you mustn't forget that back then the US was lead by a similar cry baby to Trump. The US had bailed the UK in two world wars, it enjoys a great financial relationship with the US and the US treats the UK as an equal rather then some country whose 1/3 of Texas for the mere reason that its a partner the US can depend on. I was anti Iraqi war but I must admit that the pressure for the UK to join that war was ridiculously high.

The funny thing is that one one hand Brexiteers ridicule Blair for caving in to Bush and on the other hand they pushed this country in a situation when they simply have to cave in to the US because they don't really have a choice. During Blair's administration the UK was a proud member of the EU. That gave the UK unrestricted access to the single market. Brexit Britain is desperate for a deal with the US because to give them some credibility in the world fora.

Nonsense. Trump isn't similar to anyone. I'm no fan of Bush but what you mean by cry baby I have no idea.

 

[Ubik]

Well thank heavens for that.

 

[devilish]

Nonsense. Trump isn't similar to anyone. I'm no fan of Bush but what you mean by cry baby I have no idea.

He might not has been as lunatic then Trump was but George W was hardly the brighest bulb around. His invasion of Iraq was purely to finish what daddy started and he was determined to do so as much as Trump is determined to push his immigration ban

 

[devilish]

Honestly! its come to this?

its called history mate and as a person who comes from a former British colony who also won the George Cross for valour it hurts me as much as it might hurt to you. The Nazis were beaten by the Russians and the US saved Europe from the Russians. Without the Russians we would be speaking German by now. Without the US we would probably be communists. Poor Jeremy C, he was that close to achieve his dream

 

[Fingeredmouse]

He might not has been as lunatic then Trump was but George W was hardly the brighest bulb around. His invasion of Iraq was purely to finish what daddy started and he was determined to do so as much as Trump is determined to push his immigration ban

Trump has no precedent.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well thank heavens for that.

I hear Queen Victoria's planning a comeback