How does britain gain from migrants on less than 2 quid an hour?
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It keeps the prices of fruit, cockles and the likes down and reduces labour costs in the construction market whilst increasing the profits of the unscrupulous companies who employ them, the same is true in Germany, Dubai, Singapore and every other developed economy that fails in its duty to adequately police businesses who exploit people for profit.
It's wrong, it is slavery but how has the EU made it any worse? Were the 21 Chinese cockle pickers that died in Morecambe Bay smuggled in because of FOM? Were the 71 Syrians who suffocated in the back of a van in Austria using their FOM? Vulnerable people make bad choices and take risks in trying to improve their lives, unscrupulous bastards exploit them, the world keeps turning but hey, why not blame the EU for it?
How well do you think governments and the right wing press would take it if the EU started publicity campaigns to point out those failures?
It really isn't the EU's fault. They can only enforce EU law. The minimum wage is sovereign
Some people are so blinded by hatred of the EU that literally anything is their fault.
Perhaps that will be a nice net positive of Brexit? Our politicians and people will have nobody to blame but themselves?
Ah, who am I kidding? We'll still find a way to put the blame for our troubles on them.
Perhaps that will be a nice net positive of Brexit? Our politicians and people will have nobody to blame but themselves?
Ah, who am I kidding? We'll still find a way to put the blame for our troubles on them.
When Brexit goes tits up, it'll be the fault of the EU for not giving is a nice deal and the 48% for moaning.
When the deal goes shit they'll continue to blame migrants and their offspring for the state of the nation. They can't blame themselves, they'd be voted out of power
Don't forget liberals and other 'enemies of the people' - they'll get blamed too.
May is straight-facedly making a speech in which she attacks the SNP for wanting to leave the UK and "wrench Scotland out of its biggest market"
"It simply doesn't add up and we should never stop saying so".
"It simply doesn't add up and we should never stop saying so".
Depressing
well we need to keep the price realistic, if things become too expensive then no-one will buy and exploiter will go bust. That's life.
Yes I do believe fom has made it easier for eastern Europeans to make stupid choices.
I love that Stan has gone from asking which unfounded claims they've posted to posts containing 'IMO' 'I feel' and 'I do believe' in 24 hours 
Yeah right. Of course it's the EU's fault. The free movement of labour has always been the dogma and a holy one. Where free movement of goods and capital are limited and regulated by the EU itself, when it's the free movement of labour the EU has only prevented nationals governments of regulating it. Which EU country manages to enforce minimum wage with the enormous pressure on it from all those Eastern Europeans? And what about the jobs above minimum wage, is minimum wage the ideal for the left wing these days? There are millions of Eastern Europeans for who 500 pounds a month is a very good income relative to their cost of living, they are always going to put an enormous pressure on wages in countries with much higher cost of living. They are not going to spend it in the country they work in of course.
'But our workers don't want to do those jobs' Well, you're not paying enough then are you? And when employers pay more, employees will spend more, so you can still make good money. And what about all those Eastern Europeans away from their families and friends living in caravans? Is that the left wing ideal for the life of lorry drivers and builders? And who is paying the unemployment benefits for the Western European lorry drivers and builders? Right, Westen Europeans who managed to hang on to their jobs.
Work harder for less money, that's what the EU is about. Free movement of labour is great when it's about an exciting job or place to live that's not in your own country, but now it's about unfair competition to lower the cost of labour in favour of those who own. With a left wing like this, those who own don't need a right wing at all.
Absurd. No fecking wonder nearly half of us want out.
Free movement of people is regulated just as much as goods and capital, the most pertinent example bring that you treat foreign nationals equally under the law as natives, so minimum wage laws apply.
You can't blame the EU for national governments not policing the minimum wage. Your fire is aimed at the wrong people.
As for the march east, I am in favour of it. There is little evidence that wages have been compressed by their addition to the EU, further I see how they do bring prosperity to this nations. Lots of new eastern european owned business, often set up in the poorer end of town, bringing new life to run down areas.
This is a great irony, EU money and EU migrants more often spend cash and time in the run down areas of Britain than the masters who ran the vote leave campaign.
I also think that we've done a great deed by helping eastern european nations grow, they were shit holes after communism, as they become first world economies, the people who live there won't need to move to live a decent life.
Good post.
I would add the single market has created more prosperity, not less. When I lived in the UK in the 90s after the recession there the standard of living was terrible, in particular the quality of food, standard of hospitality etc. that all improved markedly over the last 20-30 years.
Also, for anyone that understands economics over 40% of the UKs exports go to Europe which is largely made of stable, first world economies. That makes that 40% even more valuable because you do not have the same level of fluctuations as you get trading with third world economies which are the agreements now trying to be formed by May (India etc.).
Sure the Eastern European economies are not there yet in relative terms, but the idea is to invest trade surpluses into those economies so that they can one day improve standards there and become a positive trade partner for the rest of Europe. Is the ability to control immigration from these countries worth the trade off in future lost trade from the whole of Europe?
The UK's plan to tear up trade agreements and form new ones is heavily dependent on the agreement with the US as the only stable of economy with significant enough trading volume to provide the same level of trade stability as with the EU.
So far from what I can see is that every single outcome from Brexit is going to result in screwing over the little guy:
- Currency devaluation has already led to price increases and rising inflation
- Loss of trade agreements will lead to increase in import costs pushing up prices further
- Employers will need to spend more on more expensive labour thus pushing up costs further
All of that could have been prevented, if the EU would have made reasonable reforms about social security for European migrants: European migrants should get their social security payments from their home country and not from the country they are migrating to. They should be only eligible for welfare payments after working X years in the new country.
Fun fact: Originally the minimum wage was implement to price those pesky black and Asian people out of the market; it wasn’t intended to boost the income of the “superior” white citizens. Eugenics ftw.
Fun fact: Originally the minimum wage was implement to price those pesky black and Asian people out of the market; it wasn’t intended to boost the income of the “superior” white citizens. Eugenics ftw.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that's how it works.
Or you are suggesting that people that live and pay taxes in a country should be supported by a country that doesn't receive taxes from them?
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Hear this in almost every post so why do the eu make targets, limits, ceilings and floors for no-one to follow?
And we pay for this. What if ithe eu didn't exist? governments ignoring piss taking farmers, govern as you like. It'd be exactly the same as it is now only a lot cheaper. Plus we wouldn't have to hear "you cant blame the eu for that" anymore
He means their country of origin not their adopted one
So he means that the country that receives the taxes shouldn't pay for one his residents?
I only know how it works in Germany, where the government just passed new laws to prevent the worst abuse. Still that’s not how it works in reality.
Prior to the UK joining the EU it was the sick person of Europe who was begging its way into Europe. The UK is leaving the EU, this time as a financial powerhouse. You really can't complain that the EU had treated you badly can you?
Nearly everybody in the Western world is working harder for less. That's due to globalization and the redistribution of weath. We're competing with countries whom up to 10-20 years old were out of the picture but had now become financial powerhouses. Every Western economy is suffering because of it including countries like the US whose not in the EU.
If you close doors to Europe then rest assured that Europe will shut doors to the UK. If you want more access to someone's market then rest assured that they would want more access to their people coming to work in the UK. You cant expect UK companies to have unrestricted access to someone's market and then say 'we don't want your people around'. India and even the US were pretty clear on that regard
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It's fairly simple, if you don't work you have next to no rights and if you work you are protected by the country your work is because that's where you pay taxes.
I can only talk about Germany. Your first point wasn’t true till dec2016 when the government changed it. Reality is not as black/white as you try to frame it. What happens if you worked for a day and get unemployed afterwards? I also made a point about how things should be and not about how they are.
This discussion illustrates perfectly that the rules are different in each country within the EU - but of course every country is supposed to have the same rules and the EU are supposed to impose all these regulations. Another myth.
Exactly. And if you're eurosceptic to begin with then knee-jerk criticism of Brussels is the default response to any challenges your country faces, whether or not the issue should be handled locally.
Well theres your argument right there for not paying in
It's got to the point where I'm convinced you deliberately miss the point of people's posts. Nobody can get the wrong end of the stick so often in the same thread. You're just trolling. Admit it
think what you like but there is so much gash spoken by some remainers in here its become addictive.
You can be expelled or if you comply to the rules of the country you are living in you can receive something.
What I find strange is that if you were pro-Remain you were supposed to be a young leftie and if you were pro-Brexit you were supposed to be an old right winger.
Oddly enough all the people I know who on the whole are not young and predominantly Tory voters (including myself) were pro-Remain and all the traditional Labour voters of all ages were predominantly pro-Brexit.
Oddly enough all the people I know who on the whole are not young and predominantly Tory voters (including myself) were pro-Remain and all the traditional Labour voters of all ages were predominantly pro-Brexit.
Thats the problem with trying to pigeon hole people or tar with the same brush
Unless people are either extreme left or extreme right, which I would hazard a guess only applies to a very small percentage of the population, I don't believe political leanings played too much of a part in the decision.
More liberal Tories like you and @Jippy were fairly pro-Remain, however the Tories as a party have an inherent Euroscepticism to them, with a lot of their older voters and membership base edging to Leave.
Meanwhile, there's definitely a solid contingent of Labour voters who went for Brexit but the party voters as a majority still backed Remain. There's definitely a large group of Labour voters who feel disillusioned with the party, and with their more liberal, European stance...but it's by no means a dominant group.
In reality how many people are expelled? You can argue all you like about national govts being responsible but once you are in the UK and get a lawyer it is an expensive business to get rid. In fact it is probably prohibitively expensive to do so. What does it cost to go through the process of removing someone who is determined to stay?
You can’t just be expelled. The baseline was that each country has to treat Eu migrants like their own citizens. Due to the fact, that this would obviously ridiculous we ended up in a situation, where a certain level of special treatment is allowed. The whole thing is very much work-in-progress and courts decide most of these issues in fairly political ways. Especially when it goes up to the eugh. That’s why Cameron was negotiating in the first place.