The whole thing is thicker than an Agatha Christie plot.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
As I say I couldn't read all the article but the impression was that it was part of a clever ploy. The DT is anti-EU so they may have leaked it to undermine her tactic - make it a real walkout and clean break. Cue a Vera Lynn song.
Ive yet to understand this clever ploy. There is every chance that the tory party would lose its wafer thin majority after that and the uk will have a new government to negotiate a new deal
I can only imagine that it's to get the country to back her (strong, remember) against the evil EU by painting the EU even more as the enemy whose aim is to bring us to heel. Which is why I find it intriguing that this strategy is made public months beforehand and by the DT.
But how would that work exactly? The negotiations will end, Westminster will implode with DUP, remainer Tory's and even moderate leavers such as Davis and Boris will go berserk and the UK will head to another GE. There had been articles about Boris/Davis showing discontent at May's zero tolerance with ECJ/immigration. If or/and by the time she convince the EU to return to the negotiation table she will probably lose her wafer thin majority
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Maybe it was originally to frighten the EU over the "divorce payment" issue or to place the blame on them for the failure of the talks ? A rapid end to the issue which would force the country and its parties to unite ? We'll have to wait and hope someome posts the whole article.
If only the EU were primarily interested in securing beneficial trade deals, we could have spared ourselves all of this trouble.
Leaving the EU doesn't make us isolationist, that is but a negative projection of the Remainer. Brexit is akin to a spot of gardening you might say, removing the political tangle that has spread like a pernicious ivy during our membership.
People can mock the idea of a global Britain, however it is a perfectly reasonable objective when put in the context of our European Union history. It was not even a decade-and-a-half ago that the A8 accession took places, yet for some it is as if they were always present. What's to say that 10-15 years down the line we don't look at our new relationships in such a manner? An end to FoM perhaps, but lower barriers to movement with other places. The UK-Brussels story was decades in the making, and so shall this be.
For me, i think this boils down to outlook. I see Europe as its distinct and vibrant nation states, whereas supporters of the 'project' see this...grand singular Europe, a vision which carries no instinctive or emotional loyalty from my perspective.
Leaving the EU doesn't make us isolationist, that is but a negative projection of the Remainer. Brexit is akin to a spot of gardening you might say, removing the political tangle that has spread like a pernicious ivy during our membership.
People can mock the idea of a global Britain, however it is a perfectly reasonable objective when put in the context of our European Union history. It was not even a decade-and-a-half ago that the A8 accession took places, yet for some it is as if they were always present. What's to say that 10-15 years down the line we don't look at our new relationships in such a manner? An end to FoM perhaps, but lower barriers to movement with other places. The UK-Brussels story was decades in the making, and so shall this be.
For me, i think this boils down to outlook. I see Europe as its distinct and vibrant nation states, whereas supporters of the 'project' see this...grand singular Europe, a vision which carries no instinctive or emotional loyalty from my perspective.
And what happens if the EU doesn't get frightened by it? How on earth can she force parties like labour (who are a sniff away from power), the SNP and Lib Dems (both pro EU) and even her own people (Hammond is pro EU, Davis/Boris are leavers but disagree with TM's zero tolerance on immigration/ECJ) to work together? She cant play bluff now that she's so weak politically
If only the Brexit party weren't so obsessed with immigration. The UK would still retain unrestricted access to the single market and still be able to seal deals of its own (the Swiss model). That's the best of two worlds and yet......it would still imply freedom of movement of people.
Since it refuse to give European people equal rights then I fail to understand why the Brits should get unrestricted access to the European market. No bloc will ever accept that (not just the EU but India, the US etc)
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It's quite possible to be somewhere in the middle; keen on the idea of nations retaining their sovereignty and remaining distinct from each other, while still liking the idea of increased unity and cooperation all the same. I'd imagine some of the countries ravished by conflict during World War II are probably not to dismayed at the prospect of becoming more 'singular' than being a divided mess, even if they remain proud of their own, distinct nations.
The European Union is approaching a crossroads: Britain could choose to faff about whilst paying for things it doesn't much agree with, or break with that flawed status quo. Being caught somewhere in the middle was part of the problem.
Telegraph:
Not sure that's going to catch on compared to the divorce analogy
My number one frustration with this government, is how badly they are selling or explaining 'Global Britain.' Brexit so far has be insular, xenophobic and fearful.
Yes there are potential long-term upsides to Brexit (not that I'm saying they outweigh the long-term downsides). A free trade deal with the USA is possible, although by the time we leave the EU, Trump will probably be gone, and I believe there is a higher chance the USA will prioritise a trade deal with the EU. Or maybe you want free movement in the anglosphere; Australia, Canada, New Zealand and lower barriers elsewhere. Great, I've spoken about this many times. More power to you, although I really can't see the public being sold on this new free movement area after leaving the EU.
The truth is, if we want Global Britain, it start's with a soft Brexit. It's inescapable. If we want to be a launch pad for US companies into Europe, we need a soft Brexit. If we want to be a launch pad for EU companies into the USA, we need a soft Brexit. If we want lower barriers on freedom of movement to the Anglosphere, we need a (successful) soft Brexit.
Whatever this 'Global Britain' concept is, it requires a Soft Brexit. Not this insular, protectionist, fearful and xenophobic Brexit we have right now.
You can't just decide that Remainers see Europe as the EU and that Leavers see Europe as 28 vibrant states. A 10 book encyclopedia of Europe would be oversimplifying it.
Europe is history; empire, theatre, Rome, democracy, monarchy, war, genocide, Greece, renaissance and so on. It's politics and freedom; Northern Ireland, Catalonia, Basque, Flanders, Scotland. It's friendship. It's peace.
On the latter two, you might find examples of friendship in the darkest hours of European history, but you would struggle to find more obvious examples of peaceful corporation than within the EU.
We are leaving the EU. It will continue without us.
And now we'll be in a position where the EU will take either path and we'll find ourselves having to deal with the end result, even if it's not one we don't like.
I'm wary of complete integration to the point where all power is centralised in Brussels but, again, it takes a long, long way for it to actually get there considering most countries have a veto on major matters. And getting, say, all 27 member states to agree on essentially becoming one, unified central state would be completely impossible, at least for a long, long time anyway. It's the EU general goal, yes, but I think it's fundamentally unachievable.
I get the feeling such comments are going to be ones we'll see for decades to come. Those who dislike the EU will perpetually argue it's on the verge of becoming this one big state...but then this is another area where Brexiteers arguments inherently become muddled...since they like to argue that the EU is both this big, bad centralised power that reduces the autonomy of its member nations...but that it's also simultaneously a bureaucratic mess where nothing can get done. I'm not saying you necessarily think that, but it probably does apply in a lot of cases.
For what it's worth, I do think there's some things we were never particularly on board with in the EU, and that probably contributed to our exit. We were never keen on the Euro, and were naturally less receptive of free movement because unlike nations such as France and Germany, we've never really been in a position where we're situated right beside multiple other member states, meaning free movement was more of a necessity. Plus the damage inflicted upon us during World War II was minimal compared to several other nations, and the need to find something that could create unity and prevent that all from happening again was never quite there. But then again...we weren't forced to take the Euro, and would've been likely able to prevent further integration by vetoing certain legislation.
I doubt Brexit will solve a lot tbh, for those who want it to happen. Once it's all said and done those who feel disillusioned with Britain in its current state and who feels things need to change will probably find something else they don't like, and they'll still be perpetually annoyed, whether it be to Brexit not being what they expected it to be, or the deal not being good enough, or something like that. And for it's worth I'm not convinced it's be something particularly crippling or awful for our economy either (more pointless and resulting in instability) but I expect we'll look back on the whole thing in a few years and wonder why we bothered.
Hell, we've already seen a lot of that disillusion seep in already. Leave won...but if you listened to figures like Farage, you wouldn't really know. He's still always unhappy about something, and still always ranting, complaining and full of discontent. As are plenty of Brexiters.
Unfortunately yes, been to 3 in 20 years. They are the worst thing ever.
Brexit is probably one of the strangest phenomenons I have seen in Politics.
The experts, for the sake of independence let's use, for example, the Governor of the Bank of England, are lining up to tell us this will be a disaster. The people who championed Brexit to further their own Political careers - never thinking for a moment they would win, are now shitting themselves and have crawled back into their holes desperately trying to avoid being smeared by the inevitable fallout.
Yet still there are people that won't give it up. Despite not actually being able to tell us why being out of the EU will help us in any way shape or form.
I don't think I have ever before seen people just continue to look at white and call it black. Anyone think of any other cases where this has happened?
The experts, for the sake of independence let's use, for example, the Governor of the Bank of England, are lining up to tell us this will be a disaster. The people who championed Brexit to further their own Political careers - never thinking for a moment they would win, are now shitting themselves and have crawled back into their holes desperately trying to avoid being smeared by the inevitable fallout.
Yet still there are people that won't give it up. Despite not actually being able to tell us why being out of the EU will help us in any way shape or form.
I don't think I have ever before seen people just continue to look at white and call it black. Anyone think of any other cases where this has happened?
Good to know you can see both sides.
In the not too distant past, there was once a country that thought they were superior to others, who blamed their woes on foreigners and created a mass hysteria among the population into believing that their empire would last a thousand years.
It might have failed in the short run but that countries plan seems to have worked after all.
Wonder if 7 million Brexiters are willing to sacrifice their lives for the cause.
If tariff free is so much fun why does all my fruit and veg come from new zealand or mexico?
You only buy Kiwis?
Onions from nz, sweet onions from mexico. Have to say the size of them i have never seen before, enormous.
Asparagus from peru even tho they are grown 20 mins from my house.
Are mexican foods not tariff free?
Onions from outside the EU have a 9.6% tariff
Here is where your onions come from:
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/import/nld/show/0703/2015/
Compare this to France where 16% of imported onions come from Holland but mainly Spain
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/import/fra/show/0703/2015/
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Wait, did you literally just write that unprompted?
That's a good question, in France most products come from France or Spain.
dunno you tell me, I imagine tariff free trade with Europe is more expensive than importing from countries where labour is cheap and tariffs are involved. just a thought.
More like dropping napalm on your back garden.
Good to know you can see both sides.
I am still waiting to hear what the argument of the other side is! :-)
I attended a debate with the owner of my former company who is a very successful businessman and prominent Brexit campaigner - was all over the news and radio stations in the run up to the referendum
I was genuinely hoping to hear some salient points on why we would be better off outside the EU. I thought he was going to tell us how his businesses would benefit from a Leave vote and how many other businesses would too. After his opening monologue and a few flimsy stabs at answering simple questions his argument basically became...."let's roll the dice...why not, be bold.... you know it's all just a German conspiracy to take control of Europe after they lost WW2"
That's just one example but I could go on and on
Edit: In fact, there is one good reason - you acknowledge that leaving the EU would be bad for the UK but good for the world's poorer countries who sit outside and can't get decent trade deals. Other than that, still waiting
Brexiters have had it easy because until now their shtick has simply been to accuse anyone who thinks it mightn't be brilliant as an unpatriotic 'remoaner'. Now negotiations have started it'll be harder to hide behind bravado.
Not sure 'let's be patriotic and get behind Britain', is going to cut much mustard once it becomes clear it's all going horrible wrong and David Davis is out of his depth.
Not sure 'let's be patriotic and get behind Britain', is going to cut much mustard once it becomes clear it's all going horrible wrong and David Davis is out of his depth.
Tell him about our fruit n veg in Holland, good price, good size, good tariffs. Cheaper than europen shite.
Maybe one made in the EU would have made your reply relevant.
I'm sure buying non-EU phones at 15-20% higher prices due to the £ going south against the $ and € will make it great for British consumers.
Ah yes, always better to rely on products made in harsh working conditions by workers at near slave labour wages.
lol, uk fruit pickers you mean
Want to compare their wages and conditions to people in the third world doing that job?