Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

Not wholly correct - both the British Isles and the island of Ireland have a very natural physical border to permit control of imports, exports and people.

Point of order - Ireland is part of the British Isles - here's an extract from the customs paper yesterday-

The Government has made clear that the answer to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot be to impose a new customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Not wholly correct - both the British Isles and the island of Ireland have a very natural physical border to permit control of imports, exports and people.

However, if either the UK or the EU has already rejected this solution, then not too many other options are available to even negotiate about, let alone implement.

Ireland is part of the EU. You have to stop thinking about it as a separate country. Indeed, much of Ireland's economy is built on the free movement of people, they will not put a border up between themselves and the mainland as you suggest, because simply you are asking the people of Ireland to pay for the vote you cast. It is OUR problem, and ours alone.

 

[Full bodied red]

Point of order - Ireland is part of the British Isles - here's an extract from the customs paper yesterday-

The Government has made clear that the answer to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot be to impose a new customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

Great Britain, British Isles....Sorry....But you know what I meant....

OK....Maybe the UK has a very cunning plan, but I doubt it.

Ireland is part of the EU. You have to stop thinking about it as a separate country. Indeed, much of Ireland's economy is built on the free movement of people, they will not put a border up between themselves and the mainland as you suggest, because simply you are asking the people of Ireland to pay for the vote you cast. It is OUR problem, and ours alone.

Not too sure what you mean there....

 

[sullydnl]

Kinda funny that people who wanted their country to take back control of their borders from the EU are now happy to palm off their border problem on Ireland, who are actually part of the EU.

 

[JPRouve]

Point of order - Ireland is part of the British Isles - here's an extract from the customs paper yesterday-

The Government has made clear that the answer to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot be to impose a new customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

They are a bit strange, they basically propose no hard border between NI and Ireland, freedom to cross for every EU and UK citizens, and no customs border between NI and Great Britain while being under two different jurisdictions. So the idea is to create and maintain a void.

I'm maybe completely wrong but it looks like they are purposely making Brexit impossible.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Great Britain, British Isles....Sorry....But you know what I meant....

OK....Maybe the UK has a very cunning plan, but I doubt it

I doubt it too and tbf I have no idea what the solution could be either. But that was the point brought up long before the referendum , no-one had an answer in the months leading up to the referendum and no-one has since then either - so what happens, something has to happen - disregarding the rights or wrongs of Brexit , there are only 2 possibilities - either the UK stays in the EU or it keeps FoM and remains in the customs union. Any other possibilities on a postcard to Farage or Johnson

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Not too sure what you mean there....

Your suggestion seemed to be to put a border around the entire island, both Ireland itself and NI, and use that as break for customs, free movement etc. That would cost Ireland millions to implement, and given much of their economy is by hosting multinationals based on free movement, billions in their economy.

They didn't vote for brexit, you did, why should they pay for it?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They are a bit strange, they basically propose no hard border between NI and Ireland, freedom to cross for every EU and UK citizens, and no customs border between NI and Great Britain while being under two different jurisdictions. So the idea is to create and maintain a void.

I'm maybe completely wrong but it looks like they are purposely making Brexit impossible.

But what choice is there. In the real world Brexit is practically an impossibility. Far more complicated than putting an X in a box on a ballot paper.

 

[Full bodied red]

Your suggestion seemed to be to put a border around the entire island, both Ireland itself and NI, and use that as break for customs, free movement etc. That would cost Ireland millions to implement, and given much of their economy is by hosting multinationals based on free movement, billions in their economy.

They didn't vote for brexit, you did, why should they pay for it?

Actually, they'd be doing it on behalf of the EU who want a Hard Border, not on behalf of the UK who don't want a Hard Border between the UK and Ireland, while I'm fairly sure the UK would not expect the EU or Ireland to have paid for the border controls around NI.

By the way - I didn't vote at all.....

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Actually, they'd be doing it on behalf of the EU who want a Hard Border, not on behalf of the UK who don't want a Hard Border between the UK and Ireland, while I'm fairly sure the UK would not expect the EU or Ireland to have paid for the border controls around NI.

By the way - I didn't vote at all.....

Again, neither the EU nor Ireland voted for, chose, or desired any of this. The EU do not want a hard border, but the UK removing itself from the single market means there HAS to be a hard border. It is our brexit causing this, no one else.

I fear until people can actually accept responsibility for what brexit means, this is just going nowhere. At some point, its time to stop blaming the bogeyman and take some responsibility.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Actually, they'd be doing it on behalf of the EU who want a Hard Border, not on behalf of the UK who don't want a Hard Border between the UK and Ireland, while I'm fairly sure the UK would not expect the EU or Ireland to have paid for the border controls around NI.

By the way - I didn't vote at all.....

The UK want a hard border between the UK and the EU - Ireland is in the EU - ergo... or we forget all this happened and there's no need for a hard border

 

[JPRouve]

But what choice is there. In the real world Brexit is practically an impossibility. Far more complicated than putting an X in a box on a ballot paper.

You are wrong in the real world Brexit is possible but its form is very limited and it's not something that the UK or the EU want. One thing that some brexiters in this thread seem to have missed is that there is a border between NI and Ireland, these are two different countries but one thing makes that border work the way it does and that's the EU Custom Union. The EU isn't asking for a hard border, the hard border has been reinstated the second the UK decided to leave the Custom Union.

 

[I Believe]

this is far too important for your nonsense

I have great sympathy with your brother and the long term effects of what he suffered, but if you want to swap stories on injuries, try these, I lost two relatives in bomb blasts in 1970's in NI and 40 years on we still miss them, their children and their grandchildren, miss them. The daughter of man who worked for me for ten years, lost her leg as a result of a bomb blast on mainland UK, all these connected to the issues in NI. Please don't talk to me about ignorance on these matters, you my friend are the one showing ignorance.

The overall 'Irish' situation goes back centuries

The relatively modern day (up to the Good Friday agreement) 'troubles' lasted almost a half a century.

The people of Ireland north and south have lived with and negotiated around a border between the British Provinces in the North of Ireland and the Irish State in the south for years and will continue to do so, I suspect, whatever the EU and Britain agree on.

Brexit does present problems because of Britain withdrawing from EU, but anyone who thinks the issues in the Island of Ireland had been soley about borders and had been settled already, is engaging in denial.

Brexit does offer an opportunity for all involved to bring about real change, since it seems most people on the Island would a want to be part of the EU, then that is presumably where matters that could lead to a solution could be focused. Overall the issues are not just a question of borders, its much bigger than that and you do it a disservice by sounding as though Britain's withdrawal from the EU is the top and bottom of the problem!

 

[Full bodied red]

They are a bit strange, they basically propose no hard border between NI and Ireland, freedom to cross for every EU and UK citizens, and no customs border between NI and Great Britain while being under two different jurisdictions. So the idea is to create and maintain a void.

I'm maybe completely wrong but it looks like they are purposely making Brexit impossible.

A total 'No Holds Barred ' Brexit is not impossible - it's appears it's what both sides want. And what is going to happen.

Again, neither the EU nor Ireland voted for, chose, or desired any of this. The EU do not want a hard border, but the UK removing itself from the single market means there HAS to be a hard border. It is our brexit causing this, no one else.

I fear until people can actually accept responsibility for what brexit means, this is just going nowhere. At some point, its time to stop blaming the bogeyman and take some responsibility.

The UK didn't choose to remove itself from the SM.....The EU won't let the UK stay in the SM without accepting too many other conditions and requirements that the majority in the UK decided weren't worth it.



But maybe there is cunning plan after all.....

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-b...-trade-deal-telegraph-newspaper-idUKKBN1CF18K

 

[Silva]

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You are wrong in the real world Brexit is possible but its form is very limited and it's not something that the UK or the EU want. One thing that some brexiters in this thread seem to have missed is that there is a border between NI and Ireland, these are two different countries but one thing makes that border work the way it does and that's the EU Custom Union. The EU isn't asking for a hard border, the hard border has been reinstated the second the UK decided to leave the Custom Union.

Yes agreed - but it's impossible if the agreement between Ireland and Northern Ireland is to be respected.

 

[C3Pique]

What do we want?

Hard borders between us and the EU!

When do we want it?

Er, we need the EU to be creative, because they can't just impose hard borders.

Nice One, Bretards.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

A total 'No Holds Barred ' Brexit is not impossible - it's appears it's what both sides want. And what is going to happen.


The UK didn't choose to remove itself from the SM.....The EU won't let the UK stay in the SM without accepting too many other conditions and requirements that the majority in the UK decided weren't worth it.



But maybe there is cunning plan after all.....

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-b...-trade-deal-telegraph-newspaper-idUKKBN1CF18K

How does joining NAFTA solve the Irish border problem?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yes it does, because that's what actually I said, not what you misquoted!



Did I say that they did?

For goodness sake man read the dammed post, before sounding off, you are making yourself look silly.

I expressed a sentiment put to me over many years by my friends in Ireland. Personally for me, if they choose to live in the EU thats fine, that is the Irish determining their own future.

Northern Ireland may well have to leave the UK, in order to join the EU as a separate entity, whether they could as an independent country or have to join with the Irish Republic, I don't know, maybe the Brexit situation may open that debate. At the moment there seems to be stalemate in NI anyway, Brexit may break the log-jam.

Whichever it is it is ultimately up to the people of Ireland to determine, collectively, or possibly as two independent States within an Irish Con-Federation, or some similar overarching structure that is accepted by the EU.

I'm sorry, where in the below do you specify this exactly? Or do you expect me to read future you's posts to determine that it's due to what friend's in Ireland have told you?

Major target? for who, for what purpose?

It would seem the Republicans in NI long since gave up the idea they could bomb the province into a United Ireland and the Unionists realise that the Republican ideal of a United Ireland isn't going to go away.
Brexit will force a new look at things sure, but ultimately it won't be Brussels or London that solve the problem, it will be Dublin and Belfast and the whole of Ireland will probably be better off for it!

I hope you can see the irony in you telling me that I'm making myself look silly for misquoting your post when your post never had the information you are claiming is oh so vital to it in the first place.

Any opinion polls in Ireland show strong support of the EU, and a want to stay regardless of Brexit, as well as general dismay and frustration towards the UK for voting to leave. If your friends are expressing the sentiment that we will "probably be better off for it" then they are completely in the minority and you using their opinions to form your statements is a silly thing to do. Maybe you should try dealing in facts like others in this thread do. I'm losing count of how many false statements and claims you've made in this thread so far and then tried to backtrack on. (Germany and UK being the only net contributors, for example).

Or maybe you could even take into account what the Irish in this thread are saying, which is universally that we see the EU as a good thing and Brexit as a bad thing, and we'd pick the EU over the UK any fecking day of the week.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes agreed - but it's impossible if the agreement between Ireland and Northern Ireland is to be respected.

There is a technically possible solution but from what I understand it's not realistically possible. The re-unification of Ireland in or out of the EU or the UK.

Bear in mind that I'm clueless on all things Irish, I'm only looking at it from a legal standpoint.

 

[Massive Spanner]

There is a technically possible solution but from what I understand it's not realistically possible. The re-unification of Ireland in or out of the EU or the UK.

Bear in mind that I'm clueless on all things Irish, I'm only looking at it from a legal standpoint.

I can't see it happening, not in the next few decades, at least. Ultimately half of the North don't want a reunified Ireland, I think even if Brexit goes terrible for them it'll still be very difficult to convince them to vote on a reunified Ireland. I think we'd be more likely to see an independent North back in the EU, but even that would take a considerable amount of time because they are heavily reliant on the UK for jobs and subsidies so the EU would need to help provide those for them to stop the north going into turmoil.

 

[Full bodied red]

How does joining NAFTA solve the Irish border problem?

It doesn't....

And yes - I've no idea how the UK can solve the Irish Border problem given it's backed itself into a corner with its ' No Hard Border between NI and the rest of the UK '.....At least not without some assistance / advice / suggestions / dialogue from all of the EU and Ireland and Northern Ireland.

But it would help solve the apparent impossibility of the UK to get any sort of Trade Deal with the EU.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There is a technically possible solution but from what I understand it's not realistically possible. The re-unification of Ireland in or out of the EU or the UK.

Bear in mind that I'm clueless on all things Irish, I'm only looking at it from a legal standpoint.

I'll keep out of that debate, thanks

 

[JPRouve]

I can't see it happening, not in the next few decades, at least. Ultimately half of the North don't want a reunified Ireland, I think even if Brexit goes terrible for them it'll still be very difficult to convince them to vote on a reunified Ireland. I think we'd be more likely to see an independent North back in the EU, but even that would take a considerable amount of time because they are heavily reliant on the UK for jobs and subsidies so the EU would need to help provide those for them to stop the north going into turmoil.

That's what I understood and that's why I think that the Uk are making Brexit impossible, the other solution is to be part of the Custom Union but that's what they are leaving.

 

[sullydnl]

There is a technically possible solution but from what I understand it's not realistically possible. The re-unification of Ireland in or out of the EU or the UK.

Bear in mind that I'm clueless on all things Irish, I'm only looking at it from a legal standpoint.

Indeed that is not realistic at all. One of the main issues with the border is the effect it could have on the peace process. Avoiding that by doing something that would have a much, much worse effect on the peace process isn't in tbe island's interests.

The current Irish Taoiseach rather forcefully dismissed the idea on those grounds not long ago. If the Republic's government is that set against the idea then it has stopped before it even started.

Rightly so too because it would be an absolute nightmare.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Tactics....Designed to make it as difficult as possible for the UK.

EU say they won't discuss anything else until agreement on a leaving / divorce settlement, but, of course, won't or can't provide an itemised bill.

Seems absolutely obvious that the EU wants to cut all ties with the UK on BREXIT day and they are using the refusal to provide the leaving / divorce settlementl as their main weapon

Davis et al are too polite / desperate to actually come out and say that, but it's probably getting near the time when the UK should perhaps put the ball back in the EU's court and say that the UK has already agreed to pay what's correct and reaonable, which it has, but he can't discuss anything else ( ECJ, FoM, Transition Period, Irish Border ) till he's seen the bill. Certainly, it's time for the UK to grow a pair.

Sure looks that way. Its supporters would portray the EU as some open and honest parental figure, simply looking out for poor innocent children. lol Ultimately, It takes two to tango and they don't want to dance. Although they might think about it, just think about it mind, if we give them both the 4x4 and the convertible.

As i believe you alluded to in a later post, the same goes for their so-called offer on citizens' rights. The requirement that the ECJ maintain jurisdiction negated the proposal of any sincerity, and shock horror, turned the average person into a pawn.

This is why i think it is good to see both a No Deal and future relations with NAFTA being discussed in the news today. Even if we do come to more reasonable terms, a formal alliance with our North American friends could be our eventual destination further in the future.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It doesn't....

And yes - I've no idea how the UK can solve the Irish Border problem given it's backed itself into a corner with its ' No Hard Border between NI and the rest of the UK '.....At least not without some assistance / advice / suggestions / dialogue from all of the EU and Ireland and Northern Ireland.

But it would help solve the apparent impossibility of the UK to get any sort of Trade Deal with the EU.

I'm sure they've all been discussing various suggestions, but it's a problem that maybe cannot be solved as maybe the case of citizens rights.
These have to be sorted before trade deal can be discussed and thus no trade deal - May wants a transitional deal to sort out the WTO status - so what happens if March 2019 comes along and nothing has been agreed. No deal of any description. It's a total disaster for the UK and even getting WTO membership is going to take time , nevermind joining NAFTA

 

[JPRouve]

Indeed that is not realistic at all. One of the main issues with the border is the effect it could have on the peace process. Avoiding that by doing something that would have a much, much worse effect on the peace process isn't in tbe island's interests.

The current Irish Taoiseach rather forcefully dismissed the idea on those grounds not long ago. If the Republic's government is that set against the idea then it has stopped before it even started.

Rightly so too because it would be an absolute nightmare.

Which lead us to no brexit, if we are to respect the Irish context, and I believe that we should, then we have to be in same Custom area which means no real brexit. For what it's worth that's why a lot of people on the continent aren't anti-EU, we are perfectly aware of the fact that we share land borders and we will have to interact heavily with each others. It's truer in the case of Ireland but it's the same idea.

 

[Kentonio]

As i believe you alluded to in a later post, the same goes for their so-called offer on citizens' rights. The requirement that the ECJ maintain jurisdiction negated the proposal of any sincerity, and shock horror, turned the average person into a pawn.

What a crock. Are we supposed to have forgotten your heroes calling us bargaining chips and not giving a single feck about us for about the first 9 months after Brexit?

This is why i think it is good to see both a No Deal and future relations with NAFTA being discussed in the news today. Even if we do come to more reasonable terms, a formal alliance with our North American friends could be our eventual destination further in the future.

Oh yeah, let's have a formal alliance with Trump's America, what possible downside could there be to that?

 

[I Believe]

@Massive Spanner

If you are referring to my comments you will notice I said 'probably' better off! this is based on what my Irish friends, some living in the north and some in the south, have indicated to me over a period of years.
The general feeling seemed to be "we love having visitors to this island, but we would like to manage our own affairs", as I say these are sentiments and comments expressed to me over the years, mostly in situations where little or no alcohol had been consumed!

See reference to 'my friends'

I would truly love to know how "the whole of Ireland will be better off" than a situation where we've a completely open border,[/QUOTE]

Your misquote!

I never referred to an open border at all, in fact any border!

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Pretty disturbing thread from a hard core Brexiteer. His blog indicates that he would be happy to see a 1/3 of the economy leave for the sake of Brexit.

I had a bit of hope the country would take a step back once we realised where this is headed.
We seem determined to go full on, head first for this car crash.
I am just curious to know how the Tories intend to blame Labour for this nonsense.

I think a lot of people have to accept that the main motivation for Brexit is clear and it is all about getting it at all costs.

The NAFTA stories today are laughable and sound like clutching at straws.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

"we love having visitors to this island, but we would like to manage our own affairs"

Said no Northern Irish unionist ever.

Almost as though the random thoughts of a few friends is a pretty terrible way to judge the politics of a divided nation of several million people, right?

 

[Full bodied red]

What a crock. Are we supposed to have forgotten your heroes calling us bargaining chips and not giving a single feck about us for about the first 9 months after Brexit?

Oh yeah, let's have a formal alliance with Trump's America, what possible downside could there be to that?

Blame Cameron and Osborne and the others for the delay -not those trying to start from scratch.

People who blame the current negotiating team for the delay would be the same ones moaning if May had called Art 50 the next day without ANY plan.

 

[Massive Spanner]

@Massive Spanner



See reference to 'my friends'

Are you for real? That post was after your initial post that I replied to, that was my whole point. I honestly don't think you actually read what others in this thread say.

you never referred to an open border, but right now we have one, right now if the UK leaves the EU we will no longer have one.

What exactly have your friends told you that makes them (probably) think the north and south will be better off when Brexit happens? What's better than an open border? Joint passports etc.? Or maybe they somehow keep all this stuff? Go on, tell me why these Irish friends of yours think we'll probably be better off, enlighten me as to their reasons for believing that could probably be the case. I mean, I assume they have plenty.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Blame Cameron and Osborne and the others for the delay -not those trying to start from scratch.

People who blame the current negotiating team for the delay would be the same ones moaning if May had called Art 50 the next day without ANY plan.

No she waited 9 months and then triggered Art 50 without any plan and still doesn't have one

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Cameron and the Tories should have at least had an outline plan, but politicians and arrogance are inseperable.

To be honest you have to blame the voters, well 52% of them for buying into the Project Fear nonsense. The right-wing media also has to take its blame.

As others have said. May should have had a feasible plan before invoking article 50. Except she was arrogant like most of the folks for Brexit.

 

[Full bodied red]

No she waited 9 months and then triggered Art 50 without any plan and still doesn't have one

Disagree.

She has a plan - misguided, unworkable,unachievable, perhaps, but at least she now has one.

Nobody else had one other than those whose plan was to ignore the result of the referendum

To be honest you have to blame the voters, well 52% of them for buying into the Project Fear nonsense. The right-wing media also has to take its blame.

As others have said. May should have had a feasible plan before invoking article 50. Except she was arrogant like most of the folks for Brexit.

There you go - one anti-Brexit poster moaning that she took to long to call Art 50, and a few minutes later one complaining that she called it too soon.

Maybe if some the Project Fear lies hadn't been so outrageous, some people might have believed the genuine ones.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

There you go - one anti-Brexit poster moaning that she took to long to call Art 50, and a few minutes later one complaining that she called it too soon.

Maybe if some the Project Fear lies hadn't been so outrageous, some people might have believed the genuine ones.

To be fair I was agreeing with @Paul the Wolf on his point that May has just had a lack of a plan and continues to do so.

Perhaps not calling it "Project Fear" particularly as even hardline Brexiteers are admitting many of the fears would have been a good start.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Disagree.

She has a plan - misguided, unworkable,unachievable, perhaps, but at least she now has one.

Nobody else had one other than those whose plan was to ignore the result of the referendum

But that isn't a plan, it's a wish list - it's got to be vaguely sensible.
It wasn't compulsory to go ahead.

As I've said many times, you surely don't change unless it's for the better and until you have a workable plan that could realistically benefit the country you don't proceed.
Trying to explain that to just over half of those who voted is not easy admittedly and of course she didn't want to lose her job.

 

[I Believe]

What exactly have your friends told you that makes them (probably) think the north and south will be better off when Brexit happens

You really, I mean really, do have to read the posts, my friends did not say they thought they would be better off with Brexit, I never said they said they would be better off with Brexit. It told you previously, in the earlier post, that, over a period of years (pre-dating Brexit by at least 25 years) their main preoccupation has seemed to me to have been that the Island of Ireland should be left to sort its own problems out! That's it, finite, end off, that's all folks!

At least two of my friends, believe that if President De Valera had accepted Churchill's (admittedly it was only a reputed) offer in 1940's there would now be either a full Irish state, or an Irish Confederation of two independent states North and South that would govern Ireland and represent both traditions. Maybe the border problems associated with Brexit will allow, or even force, whatever, a re-visit to the thinking that was behind this idea in 1940?

Brexit is already and will become a catalyst for change in the UK as well as in the EU. An idea whose time has come! Ireland (NI) and Scotland had a predominant remain vote, whereas England and Wales voted by a majority to leave, the overall vote as we know 52:48 in favour of leaving. These votes rightly or wrongly represents the Will of the People and that has to be respected, by Governments across the UK, (or as Paul the Wolf says, risk facing the angry mob) In respecting those votes it would seem that at some point the UK will change its internal structures, how or in what way has still to be decided, but first comes Brexit!