Not brexit related but since we are mostly British in this thread,I thought I'll post here.
Look at us ffs!
Look at us ffs!
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Because we cant impose a decision on you. We cant prevent a hard border from being necessary to conform to any kind of trade rules anywhere. The EU is one of the very few frameworks to avoid a hard border and you dont want to conform to their rules.
Ireland is staying in the EU, the only current means of NI having no border with the rest of the island is by having the same trading standards in food, medicine and the thousand other things that pass between the 2 legal jurisdictions. Basically they stay in the Customs Union and the Single Market. The alternative is a border, there is no 3rd option.
None of these are options for ireland, we have no say whatsoever in what decision the british government makes. Neither do the people of Northern Ireland for that matter, their parliament has been dissolved and any kind of leverage to get that back up and running has been thrown away by going into coalition with the DUP.
You could say feck it and put up a border, but then your breaking the agreements your government of 20 years ago made in the Good Friday Agreement. A decision you made, it wasn't forced upon you by the EU, it should be added.
You'd also be breaking the agreements you made ... 6 months ago? But you said they were bolox about a week after signing up to them so I guess its our own fault for taking you vaguely seriously in negotiations.
The EU should be the easiest trade negotiation you have, its in our interest to give you a good deal. You bloody wrote half the rules we use!
You've said it yourself. WTO rules don't allow special arrangements. If you let Irish (and latterly EU) goods and people pass freely through NI, then you have to let every other country you trade with under WTO rules do the same. Are you planning on having free movement and 0 tariffs, regulations or standards for every country you trade with?
Imagine that.
"We have scrapped freedom of movement with the EU...and now have freedom of movement with...everywhere. Thank you."
Right, and what nations will those be? The EU already has trade agreements with Canada, Japan, China, the US (admittedly strained due to its president) that took years to negotiate and are about as good as you can get when it comes to international trade. So who are the UK going to get that the EU doesn't already cover? What big nations are going to preference the UK over the EU?
Not to mention, the EU is right beside the UK. You are literally losing the largest trading bloc in the world that's right on your doorstop in other to try and negotiate trade deals with other countries that already have trade deals with the EU.
I asked you three questions there and you didn't provide an answer for any of them, you didn't explain how those issues could be resolved. You're really not thinking this through, you seem to just go "yeah, well, we can just trade with these guys", or "yeah, but if we're out of the EU we can do this and this" and "yeah, well, we could just not have a hard border?" and yet offer absolutely no fathomable way to do any of that.
Actually, makes sense from a leaver, seeing as that's been their rhetoric this whole time.
I believe they do to an extent because when the UK leaves Ireland will be seen as a potential gateway to the EU, and our trade and financial services are huge compared to our size as a country given the amount of multinationals (especially US ones here), but obviously at the same time it's impossible to deny that in the EU's eyes we are a bargaining chip with the UK, we are the one tangent that there's no solution to without them staying in the single market, because there's simply no other way to avoid a hard border if we don't which neither the EU nor the UK want. The UK seem happy to leave the single market, end freedom of movement, but the one thing they clearly do not want is a hard border. So regardless of whether they have our best interests at heart, they will still do everything in their power to ensure Ireland is looked after.
But we're so far down the rabbit hole that if we accused her of being stupid, thick or even ill-informed we're being "elitist".
So much of the rise of the hard right in the US and here is attributable to the fact saying "No, that's absolutely stupid. You're fecking mental" became less acceptable than being absolutely stupid and fecking mental.
She might be a moron but she inadvertently outlined the real problem behind issues like Robinson, Brexit, Trump, Putin’s cyberwar etc in an area of decentralised sources of information - “I believe what I read unless its proven to be not true.”
The demonisation of the mainstream helps that too. If all politicians are the same and all the 'MSM' lie, what reason isn't there to believe racist feckwits who mainstream politicians and the MSM oppose?
"All politicians are the same"
"Everything the press say is a lie"
There's little that's aided the rise of Brexit and Trump more than that. Moderate political voices, experts, institutions - all mercilessly attacked and undermined in an era where people seek out news they want to hear rather than absorb news that's actually true. So Muslim countries allow men to rape children. Anything said against this politician I like is a conspiracy. Racism doesn't exist because this bloke on Facebook told me.
It's all the same. It's all exactly the same.
"All politicians are the same"
"Everything the press say is a lie"
There's little that's aided the rise of Brexit and Trump more than that. Moderate political voices, experts, institutions - all mercilessly attacked and undermined in an era where people seek out news they want to hear rather than absorb news that's actually true. So Muslim countries allow men to rape children. Anything said against this politician I like is a conspiracy. Racism doesn't exist because this bloke on Facebook told me.
It's all the same. It's all exactly the same.
That's your well thought out and convincing answer is it?
It makes me question the fundamentals of democracy that her vote has equal value.
It is genuinely like she is struggling to form a coherent thought. It seems like she has never questioned any of this stuff before now and you can see that she is starting to doubt it as she speaks.
So many idiots
She’s one of them morons who see’s a “This cornershop is refusing to allow a St George’s flag being brought into the shop because it insults the Muslim community there. We need to get Muslims out of this country. SHARE IF YOU AGREE”
Scarfolk has always been eerily like Brexit Britain anyway, good to see the government finally acknowledging it.
In fact worryingly it looks like it might be where the government are getting all their ideas
created 18 months before the Windrush scandal broke
Scarfolk has always been eerily like Brexit Britain anyway, good to see the government finally acknowledging it.
In fact worryingly it looks like it might be where the government are getting all their ideas
created 18 months before the Windrush scandal broke
The last two in particular are
Yup, we're sliding inexorably into a parody 1970s Britain, I'm wholeheartedly looking forward to the three day week and proper British food like Spam fritters and faggotsThe last two in particular are
Yep, it's a sad state of affairs alright.
Because the UK signed an agreement with the EU stating that what ever happened there would be no boarders between NI and ROI. Are you saying that the UK can't be trusted to honour agreements they sign? If yes then why should anybody make a trade agreement with us.
When the penny drops with people just how less attractive a trading partner we are when we can no longer offer access to the wider European market by virtue of trading with us should be a watershed moment. It won't be though. Someone will say "project fear", someone else will say "fish" and someone else will wonder why we're being so pessimistic because it's not nearly as bad as a world war.
666 pages. This would have been more appropriate to reach on the day we left.
1666 might be more appropriate.
The devil is in the detail and Brexiters don't do details.
The bloody nerve of Morgan (who'd likely become the new Lord Haw-Haw if the fee satisfied him) citing the War, considering his historic traduction of British soldiers.
Not to mention those wars saw massive losses of life, destruction to major UK cities and towns in blitzes, and involved extreme rationing and major sacrifices from people in the home-front in their day-to-day lives, all while living with the perpetual fear they could be bombed or that we'd lose the war. If that's the sort of thing we're having to prevail over here then...yeah, can see why some people might not be quite so keen on Brexit.
He licks the balls of the dog that licks Putins balls. What sort of cretin does one have to be to listen to him?
Not to mention those wars saw massive losses of life, destruction to major UK cities and towns in blitzes, and involved extreme rationing and major sacrifices from people in the home-front in their day-to-day lives, all while living with the perpetual fear they could be bombed or that we'd lose the war. If that's the sort of thing we're having to prevail over here then...yeah, can see why some people might not be quite so keen on Brexit.
Reminds me of a quote from the Vietnam war doc I'm watching. Along the lines of 'victory in war is most celebrated by those who never witnessed it'. The nostalgia of the post-war generation has led to a huge sense of self-importance and exceptionalism without any knowledge of the suffering. If they actually witnessed any of the horrors of war they would be happier to forget about it.
That’s a great quote and a great post, thanks for sharing.
Been thinking about this for a while.
Look at this crook. Who the feck is waiting 50 years?
Probably not really true. By most reports the DUP representative in London are a different kettle of fish to those in Northern Ireland, it might be true with them. They apparently don't have much affection for the GFA. They prefer their little ideology to the practicalities of living in Northern Ireland i guess, probably because they don't live in NI. Been a few reports that most of the power in the party has passed to them and Arlene Foster et al are just following their lead at this stage. Its a problem I dont see any solution to during the lifetime of this british government.
But think how lucky they are now to have you to explain that to them, with your superior understanding of history. If only that generation hadn't wasted so much time racing ferrets and standing at football matches they too might bettered themselves just like us.
That was the view of a Vietnam Cong soldier who saw a rise in nationalism after the war and did not like to see the next generation revelling in his generations 'victory'. Nothing to do with my understanding of history, maybe you'd see that if you got off your high horse.
Fair enough. So long as you're not claiming any relevance to the UK today then consider me off it.
The DUP have never supported the GFA. They were against it from the start. They see this as an opportunity to damage the Irish government by getting as hard a Brexit as possible and to also in their eyes anyway strengthen their ties with the rest of the UK by ensuring that Northern Ireland sticks with the same terms as rest of the UK - no matter what the cost. I think they see a hard border as damaging Ireland which is fine by them due to their innate hatred of ROI and couldn't give a toss what the impact will be in the north. They do not really care about the people of Northern Ireland outside of their core support and are more than happy to go against what is the wishes of the majority here (who voted against brexit) to benefit themselves by having power and influence in the UK parliament. They are to a man (and woman) utterly corrupt. I've had many dealings with the DUP over the years and I have witnessed first hand how they work. They truely are bereft of any moral compass and are all about getting power and more importantly money.