Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
To be honest the people I am talking about were not the brightest and really believed that we would undoubtedly be stronger economically after this five year period. I did avoid talking about the issue because everyone where was Leave where I am and I found it depressing. They seemed as much sold on the rich v poor angle as they were on the immigration issue. Someone I know even said to me 'you don't care, you're rich (I'm not, just middle class I guess).
TBH I don't think they fully comprehended the fallout. The irony is that I will probably be OK economically (I hope, nothing is certain) while a lot of these folk will be hardest hit. They have voted against their own interests I believe. It is like Will Self said in that rant 'they don't know who they have voted for'. The very thought that Boris Johnson is going to save the working class is quite amazing.
Tbh, the leavers have pushed themselves to a cliffs edge here. The best result they could have hoped for was a win plus Cameron invoking Art.50 and then resigning....which kinda was the expecation in general. Then Cameron threw a spanner in the works and left it for his 'successor' and nobody wants to pull the plug now.
- What terms to re-negotiate? How much can they leverage out of EU? Nobody knows.
- What happens to borders? Will refugees in Calais be let into UK?
- What happens to existing immigrants in UK? Even if they quit, they are sill part of EU till official exit? What then? Will they kick immigrants out while negotiating deals with their governments?
- Scotland - Does the new leaders even have an opinion? Will they break up the legacy and split? Impact of this?
and this is on top of the lies...
- No guarantee of money to NHS.
- No guarantee of immigration coming down.
- No guarantee that govt will replace EU investment or even match half to areas which voted to leave.
And Farage has cannot have outted himself more as a slimeball. He admitted to lying. He admits to recession now and suddenly it'll look better "in a couple of years". This is what you get if you ignore the experts in favor of these slimeballs.
Pan's hot. Let's jump into the fire!
Once you trigger article 50, you cannot say 'pals, we were wrong and we want to stay now'. 2 years after it is triggered, you are automatically off.
EU will probably not start negotiating before you will trigger article 50, saying that they cannot negotiate with a lame duck prime minister.
So, as I see it: the next prime minister either triggers the article and accepts a shitty deal from EU (worse than the one you got on March, that is for sure), or trigger the article and makes an economical suicide by not making any deal with EU, or doesn't trigger the article at all.
The first option might be the best one. Damage limitations and UK will be worse than it is, but that's the price you have to pay for half the people being idiots (2% there might have had some good reasons to leave). The second option sends UK in stone age (and EU near that), while the third option is a feck off to half of the UK citizens and a political suicide.
The new prime minister will have a very big problem. It is why the leave camp wanted Cameron to continue.
How old are you out of curiosity?
I had no interest in Politics at school but at the same time I had no knowledge of it. Given how important Politics actually is it's surprising that it isn't a key subject at schools through GCSE years (it might be now I dunno). But perhaps people should start getting educated in Politics at an early age.
Yep quite a few reports of this kind of stuff coming out. All across the country actually.
I don't think anyone ever said all leave voters are racists or xenophobia but the leave voters who didn't see the rather savage streak of it running through their campaign were being wilfully ignorant.
Or the voter for Barnsley who voted leave to stop all the Muslims coming into the country.
I'm supposed to simply accept such things, not say that his vote is based on ignorance or xenophobia but instead a clear and true understanding of the issues. Or that we're supposed to 'educate' them.
Because such people were very receptive to facts and education of course.
And I think it's completely fair for Cameron to resign.
Gove and Johnson want us out of the Eu so much? They can negotiate with them and deal with the political fallout.
How those two and farage have managed to convince anyone that they're a champion of the working class, they're not establishment figures and that they're just 'one of us' us isbeyond me.
Gove and Johnson want us out of the Eu so much? They can negotiate with them and deal with the political fallout.
How those two and farage have managed to convince anyone that they're a champion of the working class, they're not establishment figures and that they're just 'one of us' us isbeyond me.
Brexiters won't relent on this. Even when the facts are right in front of them. It's pointless. The more we push, the more they'll push back. Bit like telling your daughter not to date some boy you don't like ...only to make her want him more.
We can only make our plans accordingly and hope this whole thing falls flat on its face.
We can only make our plans accordingly and hope this whole thing falls flat on its face.
Can someone help me find a quote.
It's something to do with how the people have let the politicians down by not voting as the politicians wanted and how it would be easier if politicians could just elect new people.
No idea who said it or what the context was but it's been bugging me all morning.
It's something to do with how the people have let the politicians down by not voting as the politicians wanted and how it would be easier if politicians could just elect new people.
No idea who said it or what the context was but it's been bugging me all morning.
Conservative Leave MP: "There is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"
Well here is no surprise then
Leave campaigner who was worried Remain would win admitted he set up the petition for EURef2
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ferendum-latest-news-vote-leave-a7104076.html
Ooooooops, bloody Remainer's not respecting democracy, oh...
His doubling down on it on Facebook is equally as funny.
Its a qoute from BERTHOLD BRECHT, made when he saw that our Eastgerman Goverment installing Stalinism instead of real (good) left-politics.
edit:
- "Das Volk hat das Vertrauen der Regierung verscherzt. Wäre es da nicht doch einfacher, die Regierung löste das Volk auf und wählte ein anderes?" - nach dem Gedicht: Die Lösung. In: Buckower Elegien, 1953. In: Ausgewählte Werke in sechs Bänden. Dritter Band: Gedichte 1. Frankfurt am Main: Suhrkamp Verlag, 1997. S. 404
He was a genius. Love all the stuff he has done. Reading something of him is worth everytime.
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I've been reading a lot about people voting out are devastated because they have been conned. I can't believe how foolish some people were to believe the dross they came up with.
I'm still devastated my country (Wales) voted out. We get so much EU funding. Unfortunately people were voting on false promises that were never going to materialise. Naive.
I'm still devastated my country (Wales) voted out. We get so much EU funding. Unfortunately people were voting on false promises that were never going to materialise. Naive.
So as has been mentioned before they wanted Cameron to do the negotiating for them and he has had different ideas and has dropped Brexit right in the pooh.
I wonder why the Leavers didn't asked for a binding referendum voted at the qualified majority.
Thank you, that's exactly the one I was thinking of.
Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
Nobody was conned. They were told up front that it was all bullshit and they decided to ignore it. Nothing but back peddling from people trying to save face because they don't want to admit that they were stupid to dismiss the vast majority of expert opinion in favour of three idiots drumming up nationalism.
Youre welcome!
Whats important is the sentence before: Saying the people have dismissed the trust the goverment has in it. Dont know how to translate it good and correctly.
No, because you don't know who is going to be elected and you can't do it too many times.
Why the hell would David Cameron have a plan for something he didn't want?
Surely the onus was on the leave campaign to have some idea of what it wanted out of all this? You'd think if you were keen to leave you would at least have a vague idea of what you wanted.
It's literally a leap in the dark...
I wonder how much of a difference it would have made in the eyes of leave voters if Cameron came out and explicitly said before the vote that he would resign in light of leave victory. The prospect of Government negotiations not being led by Cameron does not seem to sit very well with those who endorsed the leave campaign, which is a bit ridiculous really because I'm not really sure what else they expected Cameron to do in the result of a loss.
Brexiter Iain Duncan Smith: "Our promises were a series of possibilities"
Agree. We seem to be in the bargaining phase of grief now.
Overturning the referendum result at this point would drive vast amounts of the northern working class firmly into the hands of UKIP, or worse. They already felt abandoned, ignored, this would be an actual confirmation of it. Leavers can be beaten long term, but it relies on convincing those that voted that way that they were lied to. And that's not going to happen on the basis of what the various Leavers have said so far in recent days, it'll need to be backed up by pointing to what they actually did in the coming months/years.
All that said, it does seem that the ghost of Douglas Adams is now writing things for IDS to say.
Nice words, but sovereignty does mean something, control of your laws and borders seems to mean a lot to a lot of people.
Similar to ill-judged Iraq fiasco
No, the lie that doing this will achieve that seems to mean a lot to a lot of people. There's a difference.
Really. So you know that we won't change our laws or border control once we leave the EU, your crystal ball is powerful indeed.
Why the hell would David Cameron have a plan for something he didn't want?
Surely the onus was on the leave campaign to have some idea of what it wanted out of all this? You'd think if you were keen to leave you would at least have a vague idea of what you wanted.
It's literally a leap in the dark...
When Osborne announced the exit budget, he was accused of being disgusting, scaremongering and tory mps said he should step down.
Now we find out the peopke running the campaign to leave had literally no plan on how to leave.
Ate people still scaremongering?
It's already been shown that being in the EU does not have any significance to our laws, and the Leave campaign have already conceded that immigration will not fall. So no, my crystal ball isn't powerful but my eyes and ears sure as hell are. If yours are not, I mean.. I'd refer you to a specialist but we all know how you feel about them.
You really think that UK won't change it's border control once it leaves the EU? Surely turning the tap off for free movement of people would change immigration numbers? There are people I work with who are from the EU who would not be here if the same rules were applied to them for those outside the EU.
Guardian: Will article 50 ever be triggered?
The funny thing about that was Osborne simply outlining what we'd need to do to cover the economic hit of Brexit.
He wasn't seeking to do a 'punishment budget', he was saying if we lose £30 billion in tax receipts this is what I'll have to do to cover it.
How the hell did that get marketed as punishing people for voting out?
The numbers are insignificant, we've been over this a million times. Experts have told you that you're wrong. That nothing will change, that a 0.5% decrease in our population is nothing, will do nothing and that the problems you are attributing to immigration in the first place are not because of immigration. Basically wrong on all counts.
The very people you just voted for admitted that immigration will likely not change. Where exactly are you taking your informed opinion from if every expert disagrees with you and even the people you just voted for admitted that they were wrong about it. Are you just plucking it from nowhere?
How would we lose £30bn in tax receipts?
So you are one of those, who prefere locking themself in a prison? No free movement, no studying in Barcelona, no Erasmus in Berlin, no living in Paris? Visas for every little shit which would be the most normal thing if you are in the EU? Making new contracts for every little trade you want to make. Congratulations. You will have a life just as complicated you wanted it to be.
Are you choosing to ignore the leave MPs who are clearly stating immigration won't change? That freedom of movement is a necessity of trade deals?
No matter how many times the immigration argument has been completely debunked, people will still argue differently. I bet you that in 3 or 4 years time when the immigration figures have actually risen compared to this year (or hardly changed at all) that the people who voted leave will still be banging the same drum about controlling our borders. They also do not understand that it works both ways and we stand to lose far more because of it.
They simply cannot comprehend the argument or the political ramifications or the difficulties of the situation, nor will they want to admit they are wrong or have been lied to. It's far easier to throw make believe ideas like "when we control our own borders and laws" at you because quite simply they have absolutely no other answer because 1. They don't understand it and 2. Nobody does. The law argument is equally as ridiculous because we will still have to adhere to international laws, and what exactly did they want changed? If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious.
I saw an interesting article about everyone returning from Gibraltar and the Costa's and how much of a strain that would be economically due to many being over retirement age or registered unable to work, but I suppose they will all be ok because they are white.
It will be part of our deal to leave, we will not get a deal without it. No deal, no trade as you say.
Quite an assumption, I voted to remain.
You seem very emotional about this, you like others have been happy to hand out personal insults to folks who don't agree with your opinion. Immigration as it stands is not sustainable with our current infrastructure, whether it's from the EU or otherwise, >500,000 a year additional people puts strain on NHS, schools etc.