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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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Honest John said:
80k is not fantastical at all. It is not uncommon for a person running a business with 50 people in it to be on 6 figures these days. And it is not just bosses either. I have a skilled workforce and there are at least 5 shopfloor engineers in the business who (with overtime) earn £65k+ every year. One guy regularly earns £75k.
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You are completely out of touch if you don't belive 80k isn't a fantastical sum

The high tax threshold starts at £46k so with NI I take home less than half of what I earn.

For people who earn over 100k it is worse. because for every £2 over that earned you lose £1 off your tax free allowance. At the moment that is about £11.5k. So if your earnings get to £123k you have lost all the tax-free allowance meaning that you start paying tax at 20% from zero and the 40% band kicks in around £35k. My benefits in kind - i.e car, fuel and health cover take me to that threshold so that is why I clear less than 50% of what I earn. If that situation worsened then I there is not doubt in my mind that this would have an effect on business creation. You'd get CEO's retraining to be self-employed plumbers because they'd be better off with none of the responsibility. How does that help jobs?
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If there's a demand for the jobs the ceo who's retrained as a plumber has given up then those jobs will just be taken by someone else

You are right this is still more than a lot of people. But you should look into post war tax rates. Take 1975/76 when I first started. There was hardly any tax free allowance and the rate started at 33%. High earners were really targeted paying up to 90%. We had a lot of nationalised industries with unions who were used to having their pay demands met. These pay demands were met by the UK tax payer. Which in turn meant the probability of taxes reducing was almost zero. The country's public services were actually crap and in no way reflected that tax take. Loads of wealthy folk left the country and although I don't have data to hand I would wager that the rate of new business creation was nowhere near what it was in the late 80's when taxes became more business friendly.

The thing to bear in mind is that in order for the government to run those public services (such as they were) required the burden to be shared by the general populace i.e 33% in the £. The tax burden is similar now but it is not taken at source as it was then and much is put into VAT and other things.
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Thanks for the history lesson but fact is people set up business in high tax Britain. They do it today in the high tax scandi nations. America has a very high corporate tax rate and they still set up business

This is why Labour are lying about their spending plans. To get anywhere near funding them they would have to take it from the whole of the workforce and not just the high paid and businesses. That is to say nothing of the borrowing.
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Funny you say this because the party that loves direct taxes are the Tories, its the most regressive form of tax hurting the poorest most

And one more thing. You obviously think that I am some high-flying elitist rather than the work-a-day boss I am, along with thousand of others in this country. Most of whom are doing their level best to keep their businesses afloat and, if they are like me, it's not all for selfish reasons. Some, you may be surprised to learn, actually care quite deeply about their employees. But if you want to characterise us all has Victorian work-house bourgeois chucking 9 year old boys into machinery for no wages, then that is your prerogative.
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I just think you are out of touch, and haven't a clue what earning 80k would feel for 95% of this country

You presumably are on this site because you support United. I would venture that you should look in the direction of players that earn 300k a week and clubs that can spend £200m on a kid that happens to be good at kicking a ball around.
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I don't care what they earn, only they pay their taxes. Also do you think a footballer isn't going to be a footballer because he'll be in the upper tax band?
 
Ultimate Grib said:
The concept of equality under a socialist society is good in theory but it’s seriously flawed in practice and can likely never work.

Socialisms biggest challenge is human nature and thus far it hasn’t been able to succeed against greed, envy and spite among other things.

It is unlikely for it to be able to overcome any of these challenges in our lifetime.
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You’re mixing up Socialism and Communism.
 
Can we get back to Brexit and set up a separate thread on the merits of redistributive taxation and socialism?

As for Jezza, if he doesn’t come up with a more constructive solution than rejecting May’s deal in order to renegotiate for unicorns (during a transition period which is only operative if the UK has signed the withdrawal agreement), then there will be significantly less wealth to redistribute anyway.
 
Mozza said:
You are completely out of touch if you don't belive 80k isn't a fantastical sum.
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Just shows how skewed the wealth distribution in the UK is. If you make 80k and are moaning about paying a few extra quid to have a functioning NHS and public services then there is no hope of changing your mind. After all, your employees and their families (the people that work to make you wealthy) depend on that system in order to live. You may benefit from Private healthcare but if your workers can't pay for healthcare, childcare etc then your workforce is going to struggle to support your lifestyle longterm.

I make less than half of that and would happily pay a little extra in tax if it meant the NHS was a world leading healthcare system.
 
C3Pique said:
Just shows how skewed the wealth distribution in the UK is. If you make 80k and are moaning about paying a few extra quid to have a functioning NHS and public services then there is no hope of changing your mind. After all, your employees and their families (the people that work to make you wealthy) depend on that system in order to live. You may benefit from Private healthcare but if your workers can't pay for healthcare, childcare etc then your workforce is going to struggle to support your lifestyle longterm.
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Yeah I don't get it at all either. I mean I get basic human greed but the logical conclusion in the rich hoarding all the wealth and feckin everyone else over is gated communities and no go zones outside of them. Is that really what people want the future to look like because that is the way it's going.
 
C3Pique said:
Just shows how skewed the wealth distribution in the UK is. If you make 80k and are moaning about paying a few extra quid to have a functioning NHS and public services then there is no hope of changing your mind. After all, your employees and their families (the people that work to make you wealthy) depend on that system in order to live. You may benefit from Private healthcare but if your workers can't pay for healthcare, childcare etc then your workforce is going to struggle to support your lifestyle longterm.

I make less than half of that and would happily pay a little extra in tax if it meant the NHS was a world leading healthcare system.
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My workforce are paid well.

I don't mind paying extra tax. In fact I already do by virtue of the fact that over half my income is taxed at 40%.

I just object to Labour placing their funding plans wholly on the higher rate taxpayer. a) higher rate payers shoulder a large proportion of the burden already b) taxing them alone more to fund their spending plans will never cover it.

They will have to tax the whole working population at rates at 1970's levels and borrow substantially.

They can't say that though because the populist Robin Hood gloss will rub off.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Don't worry, all these socialist/communist idealists soon change their tune when they get a bit of money themselves.
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Rubbish. Compared to when I worked an entry level job, I give more to charity, do volunteer work and would happily pay a bit more tax now that I earn at a higher level. Not everyone is driven by greed.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Don't worry, all these socialist/communist idealists soon change their tune when they get a bit of money themselves.
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Any stats to back that up? Should be easy to see a trend of those who pay a higher rate moving away from Labour once they do?

If anything I've become more socialist the more money and higher salary I've obtained. Why would my opinion on what's just change with additional security?
 
This beefing up of the text seems as empty as Camerons so called 'victories'.

I'm not sure the EU should be getting involved in playing politics to sell the deal to the british public.
 
Honest John said:
My workforce are paid well.

I don't mind paying extra tax. In fact I already do by virtue of the fact that over half my income is taxed at 40%.

I just object to Labour placing their funding plans wholly on the higher rate taxpayer. a) higher rate payers shoulder a large proportion of the burden already b) taxing them alone more to fund their spending plans will never cover it.

They will have to tax the whole working population at rates at 1970's levels and borrow substantially.

They can't say that though because the populist Robin Hood gloss will rub off.
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For what it's worth I don't think all of the additional tax burden should be placed on £46k+ or whatever the figure is. But there should be a super tax rate for earnings over something like £1m p.a.
 
There is a big difference between taxing the "RICH" and the "Slightly Better Off" - if someone through entrepreneurialism or academic hard work to carve out a career and live a middle class lifestyle, he should not be expected to pick up a significantly greater element of the tab here! In fact he already does by virtue of a 40% tax rate.

Check out the income of Denise Coates (Bet365 owner) being presented on the news today - surely its people like this where fury would be better directed?
 
Back on topic, Tusk says deal agreed
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1122/1012555-brexit/

Britain and European Union political leaders have agreed in principle to a text setting out their future relationship that can be endorsed by EU leaders at a summit, European Council President Donald Tusk has said.

Referring to a text discussed yesterday by British Prime Minister Theresa May and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, the EU summit chair said in a statement: "The Commission president has informed me that it has been agreed at negotiators' level and agreed in principle at political level, subject to the endorsement of the leaders."

The text was shared with the 27 other governments of the European Union this morning.

Mrs May is due to make a Brexit statement at around 2.30pm.
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Ady87 said:
This simply isn't true and can be added to the pile of other lazy comments you've made on the topic over the last day or two.
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I've seen it happen many times. Not everyone that is successful, obviously, but a good few. Self-made wealthy people are often the worst of the lot.
 
Heardy said:
There is a big difference between taxing the "RICH" and the "Slightly Better Off" - if someone through entrepreneurialism or academic hard work to carve out a career and live a middle class lifestyle, he should not be expected to pick up a significantly greater element of the tab here! In fact he already does by virtue of a 40% tax rate.

Check out the income of Denise Coates (Bet365 owner) being presented on the news today - surely its people like this where fury would be better directed?
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It should be of a greater focus but the reality is the 40% band will need to increase to support the society we all want. 40% isn't particularly high and the principle that those who take the most from the economy should also be giving the most back to society is an important one, effort is irrelevant as with all the effort in the world you'll struggle to earn money in a run down economy/society.

Personally I'd increase IHT before anything else but that's outrageous to the tory folk.
 
Smores said:
It should be of a greater focus but the reality is the 40% band will need to increase to support the society we all want. 40% isn't particularly high and the principle that those who take the most from the economy should also be giving the most back to society is an important one, effort is irrelevant as with all the effort in the world you'll struggle to earn money in a run down economy/society.

Personally I'd increase IHT before anything else but that's outrageous to the tory folk.
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Somewhere near 1976 maybe?

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/incometaxrates_1974to1990.pdf
 
Sassy Colin said:
10 separate tax rates, fecking hell!
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Yes and the whole workforce were taxed. But the public services were pretty crap and never reflected that take.

Mainly because the government spunked it all meeting striking workers in nationalised industries pay demands. So they could carry on producing stuff that nobody wanted to buy.

By 1979 they could not go to the taxpayer for any more to fund this lunacy and we got the Winter of Discontent - then Maggie.

Edit: Everyone remembers the medicine, not the original illness. We were called the Sick Man of Europe.
 
Honest John said:
Yes and the whole workforce were taxed. But the public services were pretty crap and never reflected that take.

Mainly because the government spunked it all meeting striking workers in nationalised industries pay demands. So they could carry on producing stuff that nobody wanted to buy.

By 1979 they could not go to the taxpayer for any more to fund this lunacy and we got the Winter of Discontent - then Maggie.
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But, but...socialism?
 
Mozza said:
You are completely out of touch if you don't belive 80k isn't a fantastical sum
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Absolutely. 70k a year puts you in the top 5%.

And the other point about people conflating hard work, with how much they earn is everything that is wrong in this country. There is a base assumption that if anyone doesn’t have a good wage, they don’t work hard enough. It’s even worse in the US.
 
Honest John said:
Yes and the whole workforce were taxed. But the public services were pretty crap and never reflected that take.

Mainly because the government spunked it all meeting striking workers in nationalised industries pay demands. So they could carry on producing stuff that nobody wanted to buy.

By 1979 they could not go to the taxpayer for any more to fund this lunacy and we got the Winter of Discontent - then Maggie.

Edit: Everyone remembers the medicine, not the original illness. We were called the Sick Man of Europe.
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Most countries in the world have experienced the fact that government run services tend to be more inefficient than the private sector.

Yet somehow some people on here on to re-nationalize everything and expect the higher earners to pay for it.
 
I see madcnut Maybot is still ploughing on ahead despite how it clashes with airwave opinion that her deal can fcuk off.
 
Cal? said:
Most countries in the world have experienced the fact that government run services tend to be more inefficient than the private sector.

Yet somehow some people on here on to re-nationalize everything and expect the higher earners to pay for it.
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What is the benefit of greater efficiency if the increased efficiency only benefits the profits of foreign operators?

I don't think we should re-nationalise everything, but I don't think its as black and white as you're suggesting
 
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