BBC Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their tune?
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
yea it's all just a total coincidence.
Also, global warming is a myth.
I had no idea that Brexit was the only cause of fluctuations in our economy, i do stand corrected.
Can a poster no longer make an innocent enquiry on this forum without being derided?
Jeremy Corbyn just lost a vote of no confidence by 172 to 40. What an utter shambles the country's political parties are in. Labour destroyed, Tories fighting amongst themselves and Lib Dems still not recovered from the beating they took at the general election. Only the SNP look to be stable, and no doubt UKIP will claim stability and superiority too. Exceedingly worrying times for everyone. How on earth anyone can be happy with this situation is completely beyond me. Aside from maybe some anarchists.
What an utter shambles the country's political parties are in. Labour destroyed, Tories fighting amongst themselves and Lib Dems still not recovered from the beating they took at the general election. Only the SNP look to be stable, and no doubt UKIP will claim stability and superiority too. Exceedingly worrying times for everyone. How on earth anyone can be happy with this situation is completely beyond me. Aside from maybe some anarchists.The economy was already in a dire state and close to stagnation. The entire world economy bar USA was which is why they've not had the balls to put up interest rates. IMF changing message and declaring austerity a mistake.
I'm not sure why you would pretend otherwise just to argue against a leave voter
As I've said on numerous , probably dozens now, occasions I don't have any politics, I don't have any fallout from the Brexit, just so damned annoyed that a bunch of idealists, idiots and racists have done this to the UK and they still keep denying it is their fault and still trying to blame it on others - still thinking something wonderful has happened to the UK.
Not only has the economy crashed because of Brexit, both political parties are in turmoil, there are no leaders, you have a racist fool trying to destroy what little hope the UK have of recovering in the medium term and a blithering buffoon trying to become PM, and civil unrest developing to boot - welcome to GREAT Britain.
Will you please stop this. It's totally unacceptable, unnecessary and quite frankly getting boring.
The Uk was doing well until the end of last year until the fears of Brexit loomed . Brexit said the Uk has to leave the EU because the EU was in stagnation and going to collapse - but the Euro of the stagnant EU has gained 20% against the pound, the Euro has gained 20% in value against the pound - have to keep repeating it it seems
How anyone can deny Brexit's impact on the economy is beyond me right now. It's one of the reasons why the Leave's leaders have been backpeddling from all the promises they made.
It's always boring to Brexiters, the truth is always boring because Brexiters don't like the truth do they
Insulting people just makes you look so childish and petty. Shall I attribute this to all Remainers or do you not think this would be fair.
Innocent enquiry my arse.I had no idea that Brexit was the only cause of fluctuations in our economy, i do stand corrected.
Can a poster no longer make an innocent enquiry on this forum without being derided?
There is one cause and one cause alone of the current state of our economy, and that's the ridiculous decision 17 million people made.
There are three categories to choose from -you don't have to be all three, otherwise you can tell me what the benefit of this fiasco is to the UK and I'll add another category if you can convince me
I don't think either side denied the likelihood of a short term economic hit; it would be stupid to do so. The focus of debate was more in regard to the medium and long term effects.
However i was under the impression that our construction and manufacturing sectors had been underperforming this past year, for which government policy has been partly responsible (particularly Osborne's).
In the end, the economy was doing OK. The people were seeing teeny tiny benefits from that but not enough to give them hope after enduring a prolonged recession in which they got thoroughly shafted. It's definitely the Tory party's fault, and the Labour party's before them of course, that so many poor people felt they had nothing to lose by voting Leave.
That isn't actually a good reason to purposefully shoot the economy (and many other equally important causes!) in the foot of course, but then most Leave voters aren't capable of critical thinking for whatever reason. The Labour party are, sadly, currently ruining any hope we had of achieving something positive from this sorry mess as they are gearing up to swerve right and no doubt further alienate from politics the 'plebiscite' who voted Leave.
If we don't manage to at least tackle one of the outstanding problems here - working class getting continually shafted by a deluded political class, and the fact that we're about to do something catastrophic to both ourselves and, quite possibly, the rest of Europe - then the country is truly fecked. And I don't mean that in the gibbering UKIP voter sense of the word where they just like whingeing about things because they're old and grumpy, I mean quite-possibly-not-coming-back fecked.
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Least you agree that Brexit has had a short term economic impact then.
Well we can't know the long term (I imagine 5 years) effects. Leave might be right we might weather the storm, recession and job losses and come out smelling of roses. Who knows, most economists seem to think we will underperform in the long term but I'll humour and not listen to the experts.
We've been criticising Osborne and his austerity programme for a long while, have you been doing the same? Or is this a new occurance as you find yourselves on opposites side of the fence.
I have members of family who are small business owners and after talking with them and how EU legislation cripples their growth I made my decision.
I said that there would be consequecnes in the immediate term weeks and months ago, albeit in the original thread.
And some of those experts based their conclusions on flawed reasoning (the Treasury), or knowingly extreme scenarios (the OECD iirc).
If you search back you'll find me criticising cuts and austerity as early as 2010/11.
Would you mind saying which EU legislation is crippling their growth
I've seen a number of people I know saying this. I haven't seen them explain what those regulations are. I'm not trying to belittle you here, I'm genuinely asking as I'm sure there are silly regulations passed in such an enormous organisation, just as there are in the UK parliament.
Could you give me some examples of regulations that have crippled your family's business?
And yet...you voted Conservative in the last general election?
Yet you're now saying that the economy was on a downturn anyway..regardless if it was or not I don't think we would be expecting another recession if it wasn't for Brexit.
I agree in the long term who knows what the impact will be but I don't think it's a great idea to play with people's lives in the short term.
I won't search back, you're quite well known as a Tory supporter so I'm sure you criticised but deep down it wasn't high on your agenda. In any case I think your main criticism towards Osborne and cuts was towards the military budget.
I might be being slightly optimistic, but I can defiantly see us not leaving the EU as we are still in the EU for at least 2 years and as more things happen like this, things change.
They are a business that don't trade within the EU (except the UK itself) yet have to adhere to EU legislation on stuff like waste management and have to stick to strict rules on the way things are produced etc. It costs them more than it should have to basically.
Yeah bro that's exactly what it is. These people ( I'm referring specifically to the racists, not leave voters as some homogeneous group) have always been unwelcoming and prejudiced, the only thing the result did was allow a fair few of the uneducated simpletons to believe that it's legally and morally OK to act and say the things they were too scared to before.
Once the police and courts finish doing their jobs then I can see our "multiculturalism" going back to business as usual (mostly unreported and ignored)
So they have to not pollute the environment? And produce quality products? How is that a bad thing? Is there a specific rule you're thinking of that is clearly ridiculous?
Nope as it isn't my business I just put my family interests first.
Interesting. So you didn't agree with the Green Party's firm position that leaving the EU would lead to more austerity, a bonfire of workers' rights, and would jeopardise our environmental progress?
Or did you in fact vote Remain?
See, this would be called selfishness. feck the world long as my family make a few more pennies.
Of course it is selfishness but not on a personal scale. When didn't a person put his family before other people?
Plus we ain't talking mega bucks here it is basically an income that feeds kids.
They have to play by the rules as they're competing with European businesses for customers in the UK.
I despair, keep seeing" Remain lost, accept it " - can someone tell me who won?
Wow that's quite ridiculous. You voted leave to feck up thousands of other people's lives so that your family could save a few pennies by not pulluting the environment.
Exactly, are my family supposed to chalk feck on the business to appease to those who want to remain?
Having spent a few days posting little snippets of anger and exasperation, I have a slightly longer take, and an explanation of why I am incredibly worried about the political future of our country:
In one sentence, the Leave campaign, and the right more generally, have created a horribly and incurably toxic political situation within our country.
The Leave vote is at its heart a rejection of the status quo. It is people who feel that the current economic order is not serving them expressing that anger. Racism and xenophobia thrive in such an environment, and those campaigning for Leave have presented it as an easy solution to the economic stagnation many have felt whilst also pandering to those fears.
But the EU, and freedom of movement within it, are not to blame for their economic stagnation and struggles. Suggesting otherwise is a horribly poisonous thing to have done:
1. The EU may be an ally of the globalisation and market capitalism that has left the working classes behind, but leaving cannot cure globalisation's failings. To combat the ills of globalisation you need the opposite of a retreat into the nation state. You need countries to work together to develop a more equitable settlement.
2. Leaving will in fact make the economy worse in the short to medium term. Investment will fall. Regeneration projects will falter. National debt will rise or services will be further cut. If the Conservatives are truly to dedicated to radically rolling back the state Brexit offers the perfect excuse to go further.
And so we have a situation in which people who are struggling economically have been encouraged to make a decision that will only make things worse for them economically in the short term. But not only that, the campaign preyed upon fears about their country being overrun by swarms of foreigners. That it was no longer sufficiently English. That their services and schools couldn't cope with the burden of foreigners. Fears like these are easy to stoke in the febrile atmosphere of economic uncertainty, but far less easy to cure.
What happens in 5 years time when those areas left behind by globalisation have stagnated even further in the wake of Brexit? These voters have their country back, but it is not getting better for them in the short term. Will they be placated by the promise that now we are leaving things will get better with time? Or does the anti-immigration sentiment this referendum has fuelled grow? What is preventing the anger that was directed at the arrival of immigrants from shifting to demanding the deportation of those who are already here?
The Leave vote is the product of anti-elitism and xenophobia, fuelled by the failings of globalised capitalism to deliver growth and prosperity to the western working class. Within England however, the Leave vote has created the perfect opportunity for the far-right to grow and thrive.
In one sentence, the Leave campaign, and the right more generally, have created a horribly and incurably toxic political situation within our country.
The Leave vote is at its heart a rejection of the status quo. It is people who feel that the current economic order is not serving them expressing that anger. Racism and xenophobia thrive in such an environment, and those campaigning for Leave have presented it as an easy solution to the economic stagnation many have felt whilst also pandering to those fears.
But the EU, and freedom of movement within it, are not to blame for their economic stagnation and struggles. Suggesting otherwise is a horribly poisonous thing to have done:
1. The EU may be an ally of the globalisation and market capitalism that has left the working classes behind, but leaving cannot cure globalisation's failings. To combat the ills of globalisation you need the opposite of a retreat into the nation state. You need countries to work together to develop a more equitable settlement.
2. Leaving will in fact make the economy worse in the short to medium term. Investment will fall. Regeneration projects will falter. National debt will rise or services will be further cut. If the Conservatives are truly to dedicated to radically rolling back the state Brexit offers the perfect excuse to go further.
And so we have a situation in which people who are struggling economically have been encouraged to make a decision that will only make things worse for them economically in the short term. But not only that, the campaign preyed upon fears about their country being overrun by swarms of foreigners. That it was no longer sufficiently English. That their services and schools couldn't cope with the burden of foreigners. Fears like these are easy to stoke in the febrile atmosphere of economic uncertainty, but far less easy to cure.
What happens in 5 years time when those areas left behind by globalisation have stagnated even further in the wake of Brexit? These voters have their country back, but it is not getting better for them in the short term. Will they be placated by the promise that now we are leaving things will get better with time? Or does the anti-immigration sentiment this referendum has fuelled grow? What is preventing the anger that was directed at the arrival of immigrants from shifting to demanding the deportation of those who are already here?
The Leave vote is the product of anti-elitism and xenophobia, fuelled by the failings of globalised capitalism to deliver growth and prosperity to the western working class. Within England however, the Leave vote has created the perfect opportunity for the far-right to grow and thrive.
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But you know those very same regulations protect your kids from shoddy products, polluted environment, dangerous chemicals and unsafe food?
That's what I don't think people understand. We pay the EU money, they make some laws and schemes they think will benefit the European economy and society. We could pay that same money to British bureaucrats instead and they would make laws that they think would benefit only the British economy and society. Except that when we want to sell our stuff to Europe, or buy their (potentially cheaper or perhaps non-existent in the UK) products or services, then everybody has two sets of shitty regulations to deal with instead of one. Prices go up. People lose jobs. Kids don't get fed.
So vote remain and feck up thousands of small business owner lives? Where does it end?
Slight correction from your perspective - Vote remain and feck up thousands of small business owners who pullute the environment and not adhere to standards provided by European firms.
Morality has no place in a business decision. The potential faraway impact of lessening regulations on that family's hypothetical children has to be weighed against the fact that, for example, with more money in a looser regulatory framework, that family can afford to spend on better quality items anyway.