You can't have a purely economic bloc with no politics. Economics involving several countries by definition has a lot of politics at a purely economic level, then there's the collateral consider. It's all or nothing.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You can't have a purely economic bloc with no politics. Economics involving several countries by definition has a lot of politics at a purely economic level, then there's the collateral consider. It's all or nothing.
Britain will be handed £50bn exit bill by EU when Theresa May triggers Article 50, chief negotiator for Brussels warns
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...0bn-exit-bill-eu-theresa-may-triggers-article/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...0bn-exit-bill-eu-theresa-may-triggers-article/
Liverpool voted remain (as did Manchester, Newcastle and, by a very small margin, Leeds). Those cities have at least seen some revival over the past 20 years after a big fall from grace (Liverpool used to have a fairly large financial services sector, hard as it is to believe).
When we are talking about this misguided expression of rage, it refers to the really desperate places here - the small towns that used to be manufacturing or mining centres. Frankly, I can't really blame them if I try to put myself in their shoes - nothing has changed for them whether under Conservative, Labour or Coalition. The fault really lies with Cameron for putting such a vital issue to the vote without foreseeing how it might become a lightening rod for 40 years of pent up grievances that have little or no connection with Europe.
Maybe we can give them the Brexit they deserve and the rest keep on living their lives in a globalised and peaceful Europe.
That would be nice - like the Italian city states. The problem is by no means unique to the UK - Trump also largely bypassed the big cities in winning the US election. The difference is of course the Donald can be kicked out in 4 years whereas there's no easy escape from the Brexit quagmire.
I must have missed that memo
Can you please list the wars that happened in the EU after the EU was created?
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Back to your "out of touch" spiel, you may live in your little insular bubble and don't know what's going on further than the bottom of your road but that's up to you.
I'm not asking you to give me something to be proud to be British, I asked a question to Stan and then replied to his answer, getting a bit touchy are we because having taken the country back and proud to be British or English or from Wessex or Mercia or Chipping Norton, I asked what this pride represents, doubt anyone will tell me.
Whether I'm British English French or Outer Mongolian means nothing, just need to have the necessary documentation to enable me to live where I want to live.
The Deviley war was awful.
You can't blame the Brexiters for missing a time when they used to pit one European country against another while they were busy expanding their empire. Most do not though.
As no-one, including the government, has said how they are going to deal with the result or its effect, it's difficult to disagree on that point. Oh I know,Brexit is Brexit and it will be red white and blue.
You misunderstood what I was suggesting.
The Jacobite rebellion after England and Scotland united.
To be fair, that was also in large part due to exhaustion after the devastation of 1914-45 (like after 1815) and the subsequent demiltarisation under the American defence shield. Many of the old hatreds and suspicions still bubble under the surface in parts of the EU, not just in places like Hungary where a large chunk of people still go on about the Treaty of Trianon but also if you hear someone like Le Pen referring to Russia as a traditional ally and counterweight to Germany. As we lose our living link with WWII, I fear this will only get worse.
I don't want to triavalise 3000 years of history but most of the wars fought in Europe were fought mainly between a powerful bloc/country vs another powerful bloc/country. The EU gathered all countries together under a single banner with issues being dealt by the ECJ.
Also note that blocs makes war less likely to occur. Hence why there had been less wars in the US (1 civil war) then as in Europe. Scotland, England and Wales prospered after the formation of the UK which was instrumental in allowing the UK to focus in dedicating less time fighting one another and more time in invading other lands.
You didn't say otherwise but you are using minorities here. It's like using the existence of the KKK to say that the ideas of segregation are bubbling in the US.
Switzerland has rejected imposing quotas on EU workers in a bid to preserve its close economic ties with the bloc, opting instead to try to curb immigration by giving residents priority in new job vacancies
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/switzerland-u-turn-quotas-on-eu-workers-immigration
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/switzerland-u-turn-quotas-on-eu-workers-immigration
Define peaceful first
But it just depends where you draw the border, doesn't it? Your first paragraph describes perfectly the EU-Russia dispute over Ukraine. And, in a few years time,it could just as easily describe a dispute with Erdogan's Turkey. Also, blocs, if dysfunctional, can fall apart with messy consequences. And, even as a Remainer, I have to say the EU is dysfunctional in many respects.
What's worse than an immigrant, an emigrant
I don't know how well you you know Hungary but I can assure you the prevalence of anti-Romania feeling is not the preserve of a few nutjobs like the KKK. As for France, I defer to you (although how well do you know what la France profonde really thinks - months before, I had thought Brexit would be at least 60% remain). However, whether Le Pen is in a minority view or not with her Russophilia, she is one of the two candidates for the highest office in the land and therefore her views have to be taken seriously.
That's another matter altogether and its enshrined in European history. Europe has a long history of looking down at its more powerful yet somehow less sophisticated neighbour since Roman times. Which is kind of awkward because when Russia sneezed most of the time Europe got hurt. Its time we learn that we cannot choose our neighbours and therefore we're better off learning to live with them even though they might do things we do not like. It comes from a person whose nation lived alongside the mad dog for many many years.
Hence why I believe the EU needs to cut its umbilical cord from the US and the UK, it should build its own army and its should shape its own future. Its one thing hiding behind your bigger brother in the West (who might even be a bigger bully then you himself) and its another dealing with your own problems knowing that if you mess up, you're the one who'll end up bruised. If the usual warmongers want to engage war with Russia then please do but lets keep Europe out of it. Considering how the Vietnam war ended it won't end up nice.
well, peace for a Maltese is probably not having a big chunk of our population killed/nearly starved to death because of some invader.
How can you agree with Stan, I mean he has lived in Holland for far longer than I have in France, so he must be well and truly out of touch, but of course he favours Brexit
I don't know what la France profonde really thinks, other than that we are all tired of politicians and that if we were to make a frexit tomorrow the leave would probably win because a lot of people wouldn't vote, a big part would sanction the current government and the third part would be made of right and left "nationalists" who have always been against anyone that doesn't sing La Marseillaise(when they can't do it themselves).
It's actually terrifying seeing government ministers replying to claims from the EU with little more than 'You wish, Jonny Foreigner!'. Seriously if a business executive behaved like this, they'd be laughed out of their job in a day.
I would say unrest, racism and terrorism sre not peaceful.
Probably because your lot have been labelling every exit voter as an idiot.
I didnt come to holland cos it is in the eu the same way i wont rush back to england when Brexit is finalised. If i had enuff money not to worry about work then i could easily move back one day. The mrs would love to as well
I am learning that I will not get last word with you
) As for Russia, my own take on it having lived there is that they only respect strength and traditional euro diplomacy is useless. If Europe wants to deal with Russia without the US, then it needs to carry a big stick. At the moment, only the UK reliably wields that big stick. France sometimes does, depending on the President, while the others are military pygmies. Another reason not to totally punish the UK even if our politicians sometimes seem to deserve it.No, imo exit voters are either delusional or xenophobic or racist or idealists but mostly because they have been lied to and are gullible enough to believe it. After all this time still haven't seen a valid argument. Which led to my question about the other possible reason as to what makes a Brit so proud as opposed to other European countries.
If you wish to go back to the UK at some point, good for you, you have a choice, you should be able to live where you want provided you are not a burden on the country where you chose to live. Brits, or English people as you may prefer, can live in the UK (England) and be a burden on the country (I'm not referring to you).
I didn't come to France because it is in the EU either, I live here because I love France which fortunately is in the EU. Even if it wasn't in the EU I would still have come here but as a bonus I can enjoy the benefits of freedom of movement and trade because it is in the EU.
I am learning that I will not get last word with you
Not really, no. Serbia was never a powerhouse but Russia went to war to defend it. WW1 costed Russia the death of millions of people and a regime change which would bring misery to them for decades. Same thing can be said about Syria. Russia defended the Assad regime even though such action caused heavy sanctions on Russia. The same happened in Ukraine were Russia stepped in to defend Russian speaking Ukranians who suffered from years of discrimination. What Russia does is, defending its allies. I wonder whether the US-UK allies can say the same. Maybe we can ask the Shah or Saddam Hussein about their opinion on that.
You make it sound that Russia had been causing wars all over the place but it certainly didn't. The majority of terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism is financed by UK-US ally Saudi Arabia. However no one barely ever say anything about that. We also know who was behind destroying Iraq and who was the catalyst behind turning a democratic Iran into an absolute monarchy which consequently cause a revolt which paved the way to Islamism. Speaking of revolt its never cease to make wonder how the wide majority of countries affected by the Arab spring were countries who happen to be anti West. We've got close ties with Libya and I happen to have Libyan friends. Sure Gheddafi was a ahole but he was mellowing and the country was at the cusp of greatness. There was plenty of optimism in the country who was starting to enjoy heavy investment from the 4 corners of the world. Gheddafi was soon to retire with his son Saadi who was far less volatile then daddy taking over. His dream was to create a sort of EU of Africa with Libya being its Germany. Then suddenly war broke and Libya ended up a little Somalia with Muslim fundamentalists wielding US weaponary. I wonder from were they got that stuff.
Don't take me wrong Russia is no saint. However if look around you, you'll notice that most wars aren't influenced by Russia at all. Sure there's Syria. Yet no one barely speaks of Yemen despite the country being equally attacked. Boris did and he was sent in the corner by the wicked witch of the west because the UK doesn't speak badly about their anti human. women, gay rights friends who finance terrorism and aren't particularly keen in things such as democracy. Which really makes you wonder what would happen if a federal Europe, with a real army of its own, starts getting fed up of having to receive the consequences of the warmongers wars? What would happen if instead of sanctioning Russia, its start sanctioning the UK or the US with some help from Russia and China. No wonder why some people are getting hot under the collar of having a federal and independent Europe with no US lackey vetoing every attempt of making the project work.
Good bit from O'Toole
I wonder how many things in my house are from the eu region, no electronics for sure. I bet if i find anything it was made or assembled outside the eu.
As far as movement is concerned i dont go anywhere, portugal maybe once per year.
That's an interesting post, food for thought...
Yes,good post
Exactly the same can be said of those that voted remain
Or do you think fear of north korea, ww3, plague, locusts and certain death are genuine realities waiting to happen
How gullible remainers were
I didn't mention any of those things
That's the same everywhere, cars, food, furnitureetc, but you didn't buy them from outside the EU - I can buy whatever I want from within the EU without worrying about duty, import licences, customs inspections and so on.
I was in the trading business with companies based in the UK, fortunately I no longer am, pity the poor sods if the UK is out of the EU.
You travel to the Uk as well but you can travel where you like without visa and so on or even currency exchange.
As you say you may return to the UK in the future, what if they say they won't let your mrs in to stay.
They wont
Well importing cheaper cars from Germany to NL carries a cost so its not all clear cut. Supermarkets are full of fruit and veg from countries outside the eu, stuff that can be grown right here and its pricey.