Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[DomesticTadpole]

I think the interprets the popularity based on the referendum only.
She also interprets the results of the referendum as the will of citizens to focus only and primarily on immigration.

The City and the EPL are probably starting to realise that they are not in her mind when negotiating with the EU.

If Theresa May was looking at the press, she would propose a second referendum just to be certain that the UK citizens are ready to take the plunge.
Since she does not, I can only assume she doesn't want to confirm in any ways.
Note that it's not necessarily a reproach, just an assessment.

Well when she eventually sells us all down the river, she could always buy a nice little house in France or somewhere to retire.

 

[Gasolin]

You have no choice on this issue. At all.

Are you taking about the 40B EUR that the UK committed to pay already but has not paid yet?

The UK could refuse to pay, but that would be a strange move on the international scene.
One that could trigger a war in fact, as it would be a questioning of all international legal treaties...
Who would trust the UK then?
How would they "prove" that they wouldn't do other countries trying to get a treaty with them what they did to the UK?

 

[JPRouve]

I think the interprets the popularity based on the referendum only.
She also interprets the results of the referendum as the will of citizens to focus only and primarily on immigration.

The City and the EPL are probably starting to realise that they are not in her mind when negotiating with the EU.

If Theresa May was looking at the press, she would propose a second referendum just to be certain that the UK citizens are ready to take the plunge.
Since she does not, I can only assume she doesn't want to confirm in any ways.
Note that it's not necessarily a reproach, just an assessment.

I think that the second referendum isn't an option because she didn't gain her position through general elections and she could lose everything.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Are you taking about the 40B EUR that the UK committed to pay already but has not paid yet?

The UK could refuse to pay, but that would be a strange move on the international scene.
One that could trigger a war in fact, as it would be a questioning of all international legal treaties...
Who would trust the UK then?
How would they "prove" that they wouldn't do other countries trying to get a treaty with them what they did to the UK?

They can negotiate all they want about future commitments. They can't walk away from existing liabilities. For obvious reasons. I mean, if they could literally do whatever the hell they want why not kick things off by cancelling all of their current national debt? Boom! A trillion quid out of nowhere!

 

[Rightnr]

Again with the not getting people's points. I'm talking specifically about the race to the lowest corporate tax rates. Nothing else. An issue that your hero in the tartan pant suit has deliberately and provocatively put on the table and will be music to the ears of the corporates and 1%ers.

That's what happens when people think they're fecking over The Man by voting for a Tory/UKIP/Murdoch initiative. Well done all. Really thought this through.

Spot on. Anyone who cannot see this is either ignorant or wilfully blind.

 

[JPRouve]

They can negotiate all they want about future commitments. They can't walk away from existing liabilities. For obvious reasons. I mean, if they could literally do whatever the hell they want why not kick things off by cancelling all of their current national debt? Boom! A trillion quid out of nowhere!

Actually they can do all the things you mentioned, the real problem is that countries loan money to each other, banks too and when one country defaults his reputation(grade) is impacted and loans become expensive, sometimes extremely expensive.

 

[Mozza]

Not everyone likes the same brand

In a good thing we have a deal with Nestlé as well.

 

[Stanley Road]

In a good thing we have a deal with Nestlé as well.

Exactly, more flavours, more brands, more countries and more continents. Not just the eu

 

[Mozza]

You realize the type of conversation you are stuck in?

I'm stubborn enough to keep going

 

[Mozza]

Exactly, more flavours, more brands, more countries and more continents. Not just the eu

Except the EU has many trade deals, at great rates cause it's massive. We'll have to start again from a position of weakness

Talking Chocolate, the price of Freddos have gone up 5p from 25 to 30p, thus hurting the poorer consumer

 

[jackofalltrades]

Johnson is an idiot, and in isolation his babblings might get waved away as typical Boris. When the PM is behaving like a damn moron too however, it just cements our fast developing reputation as a nation of delusional xenophobes.

Haven't seen anything about Boris being criticised by May so maybe there's a subtext here. That the EU is simply being unreasonable and uncooperative, in Boris's case it might imply as always. The same line is being echoed in the pro-Brexit press - the EU is being awkward and silly and will ruin everything ! In effect, though, theGovernment may be preparing the way to blame the EU for their own future failures.

 

[endless_wheelies]

I think the interprets the popularity based on the referendum only.
She also interprets the results of the referendum as the will of citizens to focus only and primarily on immigration.

The City and the EPL are probably starting to realise that they are not in her mind when negotiating with the EU.

If Theresa May was looking at the press, she would propose a second referendum just to be certain that the UK citizens are ready to take the plunge.
Since she does not, I can only assume she doesn't want to confirm in any ways.
Note that it's not necessarily a reproach, just an assessment.

I actually don't think the Premier League will be hit one bit.

It's probably our greatest British export, a beacon of British marketing success on the world stage, the epitome of what Theresa May hopes Britain will achieve on leaving the EU and she isn't going to let that die.

Let's not forget when she was home secretary and the FA was trying to force work permit tightening on Premier League clubs she refused to accept any proposal until it had the consent of the PL. Also bare in mind the core support of Brexit were the idiot working class "c'mon Hull"ers of the country, you think if the quality of the Premier League went to dirt they wouldn't be the first to be up in arms?

The EU has been a thorn in the PL's side for years in terms of how trying to curb how it sells its TV rights to maximise income - the British government has had to step in on more than one occasion and defend them - and so leaving the EU will open the door for whatever practises the PL chooses to maximise sales. Given Scudamore has got someone much more in line with his own views back running the FA I could even see the situation panning out in a renegotiation and slackening of the current non-EU rules resulting in even more player availability for English clubs. About right too because European players are completely overpriced compared to their South American counterparts.

 

[Gasolin]

I actually don't think the Premier League will be hit one bit.

It's probably our greatest British export, a beacon of British marketing success on the world stage, the epitome of what Theresa May hopes Britain will achieve on leaving the EU and she isn't going to let that die.

Let's not forget when she was home secretary and the FA was trying to force work permit tightening on Premier League clubs she refused to accept any proposal until it had the consent of the PL. Also bare in mind the core support of Brexit were the idiot working class "c'mon Hull"ers of the country, you think if the quality of the Premier League went to dirt they wouldn't be the first to be up in arms?

The EU has been a thorn in the PL's side for years in terms of how trying to curb how it sells its TV rights to maximise income - the British government has had to step in on more than one occasion and defend them - and so leaving the EU will open the door for whatever practises the PL chooses to maximise sales. Given Scudamore has got someone much more in line with his own views back running the FA I could even see the situation panning out in a renegotiation and slackening of the current non-EU rules resulting in even more player availability for English clubs. About right too because European players are completely overpriced compared to their South American counterparts.

I am ready to agree with you, but then, isn't it the same for the City? It's one of the finest British success, and one that requires talents from all over the world.
There's also a question of the ability to sell and compete within the union.
She did not even consider taking into account the worries of the City.

Let's not forget that the Theresa May we knew thought the UK was better within the EU. Yet, once in charge of the Brexit government, she had to have a harder stance.

And for the consideration for Hull supporters... well I don't know.

 

[endless_wheelies]

I am ready to agree with you, but then, isn't it the same for the City? It's one of the finest British success, and one that requires talents from all over the world.
There's also a question of the ability to sell and compete within the union.
She did not even consider taking into account the worries of the City.

Let's not forget that the Theresa May we knew thought the UK was better within the EU. Yet, once in charge of the Brexit government, she had to have a harder stance.

And for the consideration for Hull supporters... well I don't know.

I'm not sure she was ever *that* remain, she was calling for tighter immigration laws days before the referendum vote itself, I think she has been scarred by her inability to get the net immigration figure down at all as was her responsibility.

And whilst bankers have a bad reputation amongst her public fans so she can't be openly seen to be backing them, I wouldn't write off that special deal for London just yet. You would be hard-pressed to find a single person in her party who would argue against that. My dad and some other people from his company met Philip Hammond a few months ago and were very impressed with handle he seems to have on the situation for businesses, he's Theresa May's only actual high profile cabinet pick in her own mold and the best indicator of her real mindset beneath everything.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I'm not sure she was ever *that* remain, she was calling for tighter immigration laws days before the referendum vote itself, I think she has been scarred by her inability to get the net immigration figure down at all as was her responsibility.

And whilst bankers have a bad reputation amongst her public fans so she can't be openly seen to be backing them, I wouldn't write off that special deal for London just yet. You would be hard-pressed to find a single person in her party who would argue against that. My dad and some other people from his company met Philip Hammond a few months ago and were very impressed with handle he seems to have on the situation for businesses, he's Theresa May's only actual high profile cabinet pick in her own mold and the best indicator of her real mindset beneath everything.

She's on record as wanting to escape the clutches of the evil ECJ, primarily due to not being able to deport or extradite Abu Hamza.

If she could, I feel, she'd retain the single market but reject pretty much everything else. In short - happy to have European money, but not the people or legal control.

 

[Gasolin]

I'm not sure she was ever *that* remain, she was calling for tighter immigration laws days before the referendum vote itself, I think she has been scarred by her inability to get the net immigration figure down at all as was her responsibility.

And whilst bankers have a bad reputation amongst her public fans so she can't be openly seen to be backing them, I wouldn't write off that special deal for London just yet. You would be hard-pressed to find a single person in her party who would argue against that. My dad and some other people from his company met Philip Hammond a few months ago and were very impressed with handle he seems to have on the situation for businesses, he's Theresa May's only actual high profile cabinet pick in her own mold and the best indicator of her real mindset beneath everything.

Good to know if there's at least some consideration for such a deal for London. Then we need to see how the EU is going to deal with that on their side.
As it's often the case, there will be an arbitrage to make at some point, when not everything will go on their way.
And that's what I fear from Theresa May.

 

[Kentonio]

Haven't seen anything about Boris being criticised by May so maybe there's a subtext here. That the EU is simply being unreasonable and uncooperative, in Boris's case it might imply as always. The same line is being echoed in the pro-Brexit press - the EU is being awkward and silly and will ruin everything ! In effect, though, theGovernment may be preparing the way to blame the EU for their own future failures.

I suspect that's been the plan all along, in the event of things going badly.

 

[devilish]

seriously what did you want her to say? she point black said she know's she can't stay part of the free market, but of course she is going t say id like to negotiate a deal where their are as few tariffs between us as possible.... thats just sensible, what did you want her to say, hey we'd like to give you as much money as possible and take any deal you give us on trade? or where leaving the EU so lets all throw up tariff walls and not try and make a deal? ...... people complaining about that part of the speech wouLd complain about what ever she said.

The tax haven threat for my money was not something i support, but on the other hand apart from that she had given a speech that was if anything too compromising and probably felt she had to make a statement saying hey while we accept we can't have our cake and eat it we won't be pushed around either. But setting up a tax haven is not something i agree with in anyway, and understand why people had issues with that part of the speech.

Considering her upbringing I can sympathise with May. She comes from a strong christian upbringing were stern discipline is the key to everything. She also lives in a country that idolise people like Winston Churchill, Queen Elizabeth II and Maggie Thatcher who hardly can be said to be people's persons. I myself is a bit like that too, mainly because I share the same upbringing myself with relatives who idolised the very same people.

There again, the world had changed. The British empire is gone, the UK is not a big player anymore and this is politics not a class room. The UK is a rich country with a decent army and alot of great people but its not in a position to bully itself to a good deal, at least not against an entire continent.

You might think that as a Johnny Foreigner I can't understand the UK. I beg to differ. I myself come from an upbringing which is pretty similar to Ms May and with relatives who were both anglophiles (ie idolising the same people on that list) but also pretty skilled in self determination. I think you can't be an islander without being that. However as someone whose country never held empires and is relatively small I also acknowledge the wisdom in avoiding divisive arguments and threats especially when most of them are empty.

I don't rate Boris. I think he is an idiot TBH. However I confess that the guy had probably handled TM the best negotiation weapon she needed. Earlier in the Brexit campaign he said that if the Leave vote won then he will go to Brussels, armed with a mandate to leave the EU and ask for some radical changes. Don't take me wrong these changes might or might not be granted. Irrespective of it, it would have given TM something it needs badly ie time.

Time is instrumental to slowly build a solid negotiation team that can go toe to toe with the EU. Time would have also given her the opportunity to bring every stakeholder under one roof and unite this divisive country under one banner so that they can negotiate as a united front. If she had time she could have launched a massive propaganda about how good the single market is and what a shame it would be if its broken because of the EU inflexibility which would in turn pressure the EU politicians to give her a better deal at a later time (a bit like what Canada did when Wallonia nearly sunk their trade deal). The EU has vulnerable countries within it who simply can't afford to stay in a limbo for long so reluctance to activate article 50 would also strengthen the UK's hand and forcing the EU to informal talks.

To achieve that TM should have used tact and positivity, highlighting the EU project positive things and how the UK contributed within the project in a good way. Sure the relation must change, that's what the UK voter wanted and anything rather then a Hard Brexit will need the consensus of the people again. But nothing is excluded and that include taking years to activate article 50, campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU but on different terms or hard Brexit. I assure you the EU would rather give a good deal to the UK then having a time bomb at its feet waiting for a moment of weakness to detonate.

I am aware that Cameron tried something similar. However his deadline was simply too short for 27 countries to agree a good deal for him. Also it was pretty evident that he would campaign in favour of the EU and with his opposition lead by idiots, they never took him seriously.

 

[Kentonio]

Guy Verhofstadt said the comments made by the Foreign Secretary about François Hollande are “abhorrent and deeply unhelpful” as the UK and EU prepare for sensitive talks to determine Britain's future relations with the bloc.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...bhorrent-brexit-nazi-comparison-a7533621.html

 

[Unmutual]

 

[matherto]

Theresa May is fecking useless. I thought Cameron was weak but she's coming across even worse at the minute.

Boris wants shooting. His mere presence on the same planet is irritating.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

 

[Unmutual]

No-one believed she was an avid Remainer back then, same as I dont believe she's an avid Brexiter now.

 

[Zarlak]

It's truly pathetic to see in today's papers and on social media all those who voted leave now up in arms that May is taking us out of the single market. You knew this would happen, you were told this would happen 100 times, you all said 'leaving the single market is fine, we don't need it to survive' or you said 'it won't hurt us that much to leave the single market' and now that it's going to happen all of a sudden they want to blame May for it. No, feck off it's your fault. You're the ones that ignored everybody that said if we left the EU it would mean leaving the single market. It's your fault and you have to deal with it.

 

[Unmutual]

It's truly pathetic to see in today's papers and on social media all those who voted leave now up in arms that May is taking us out of the single market. You knew this would happen, you were told this would happen 100 times, you all said 'leaving the single market is fine, we don't need it to survive' or you said 'it won't hurt us that much to leave the single market' and now that it's going to happen all of a sudden they want to blame May for it. No, feck off it's your fault. You're the ones that ignored everybody that said if we left the EU it would mean leaving the single market. It's your fault and you have to deal with it.

I honestly hadn't noticed that. Far as I can see the Brexit newspapers seem cock-a-hoop with May's plan.

 

[Zarlak]

I honestly hadn't noticed that. Far as I can see the Brexit newspapers seem cock-a-hoop with May's plan.

There are articles about how May has betrayed everyone who voted and how she's fallen at the first hurdle, failed us in negotiations by conceding that we have to leave the single market and how it's all her fault. Like feck off, it could not have been made any clearer before the vote that this would have to happen and people either chose to ignore it in which case it's their fault, or chose not to believe it based on nothing and choosing not to believe any expert on the matter which again is their fault. But now they'll wash any personal responsibility off of themselves and look to blame whoever else they can.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No-one believed she was an avid Remainer back then, same as I dont believe she's an avid Brexiter now.

The lot of them are devious wankers who say whatever they need to say at the time for the benefit of their own career, whether or not it is in the best interest of the country. That much has been obvious from the outset. I posted that tweet because it's always interesting to see a blatant example of their self-serving nature but even more so when May is expecting the country to rally behind her aggresive negotiation tactics. People need to be aware that she's behaving the way she is because she thinks it's the best thing for her career and for the Tory party, not because she thinks it will be in the best interests of the future of Britain.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

As far as I can remember, she's only said she'll make the best of the situation now that the referendum is done. She's not doing a great job of it but I don't think you can accuse her of flip flopping unless someone asked her which way she voted herself.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The lot of them are devious wankers who say whatever they need to say at the time for the benefit of their own career, whether or not it is in the best interest of the country. That much has been obvious from the outset. I posted that tweet because it's always interesting to see a blatant example of their self-serving nature but even more so when May is expecting the country to rally behind her aggresive negotiation tactics. People need to be aware that she's behaving the way she is because she thinks it's the best thing for her career and for the Tory party, not because she thinks it will be in the best interests of the future of Britain.

Well exactly that, she thinks this is what the majority of voters want to hear & believes it will get her a general election win when it comes around.

She certainly doesn't give a hoot if it's the best thing for the country or not, just as Cameron didn't give a shit when promising a referendum to the uneducated on Europe if they just voted him in.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

She's lost it this woman. Calling out businesses for not paying enough taxes just 2 days after threatening to make the UK a tax haven.

Nutter.

 

[Smores]

It's truly pathetic to see in today's papers and on social media all those who voted leave now up in arms that May is taking us out of the single market. You knew this would happen, you were told this would happen 100 times, you all said 'leaving the single market is fine, we don't need it to survive' or you said 'it won't hurt us that much to leave the single market' and now that it's going to happen all of a sudden they want to blame May for it. No, feck off it's your fault. You're the ones that ignored everybody that said if we left the EU it would mean leaving the single market. It's your fault and you have to deal with it.

I'm not sure thats fair. The vote was not on leaving the single market, now you could argue given the lack of a plan its their fault as this was always a possibility but i think its a stretch to claim this was always the outcome.

May has put down her own boundaries (whilst stating brexit means brexit) based on attracting voters and internal political pressures. No one voted that immigration has to stop for instance but she's very much decided to reach that conclusion anyway, valid or not.

You can only draw the conclusion that asking such a simple question was as bad of an idea as asking one at all.

 

[Zarlak]

I'm not sure thats fair. The vote was not on leaving the single market, now you could argue given the lack of a plan its their fault as this was always a possibility but i think its a stretch to claim this was always the outcome.

May has put down her own boundaries (whilst stating brexit means brexit) based on attracting voters and internal political pressures. No one voted that immigration has to stop for instance but she's very much decided to reach that conclusion anyway, valid or not.

You can only draw the conclusion that asking such a simple question was as bad of an idea as asking one at all.

Pretty much every single expert on the matter advised the people over, and over, and over, and over again that leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market so it's completely fair. Those people chose to completely ignore it, gloss over it or in a lot of cases try to justify leaving the single market saying it was overrated, actually hindered us and would allow us to make more deals with everyone else. Now it's sinking in they're looking for someone else to blame rather than themselves.

You're right that the vote wasn't to leave the single market, but it was still made painfully clear that the vote to leave the EU included leaving the single market as a consequence, and still people voted to leave. It's not the fault of May for carrying out exactly what was said would happen before the vote.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not sure thats fair. The vote was not on leaving the single market, now you could argue given the lack of a plan its their fault as this was always a possibility but i think its a stretch to claim this was always the outcome.

May has put down her own boundaries (whilst stating brexit means brexit) based on attracting voters and internal political pressures. No one voted that immigration has to stop for instance but she's very much decided to reach that conclusion anyway, valid or not.

You can only draw the conclusion that asking such a simple question was as bad of an idea as asking one at all.

That's a bit confusing, leaving the EU de facto meant leaving the single market and to get back into the single market the UK would have had to give things that they weren't going to give because they were at the heart of Brexit, namely FOM and respecting the rules of the market.

There was only two alternatives, a hard Brexit or no real Brexit.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

The lot of them are devious wankers who say whatever they need to say at the time for the benefit of their own career, whether or not it is in the best interest of the country. That much has been obvious from the outset. I posted that tweet because it's always interesting to see a blatant example of their self-serving nature but even more so when May is expecting the country to rally behind her aggresive negotiation tactics. People need to be aware that she's behaving the way she is because she thinks it's the best thing for her career and for the Tory party, not because she thinks it will be in the best interests of the future of Britain.

Well exactly that, she thinks this is what the majority of voters want to hear & believes it will get her a general election win when it comes around.

She certainly doesn't give a hoot if it's the best thing for the country or not, just as Cameron didn't give a shit when promising a referendum to the uneducated on Europe if they just voted him in.

This is exactly what's going on, and for me the worst part is that it distracts so much from finding a proper solution for the situation. It's complex enough as it is, without all the flip-flopping. All the U-turning and obvious self interest from the politicians who are supposed to step up and actually lead in a sensible way makes it nearly impossible to judge whether good decisions are being made, and if this doesn't stop quickly it's only going to be more of a shambles.

 

[Smores]

That's a bit confusing, leaving the EU de facto meant leaving the single market and to get back into the single market the UK would have had to give things that they weren't going to give because they were at the heart of Brexit, namely FOM and respecting the rules of the market.

There was only two alternatives, a hard Brexit or no real Brexit.

We voted on neither of those things so that's just an interpretation, one that May has certainly bought into but it doesn't necessarily follow that every leave voter voted that way.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/11/uk-voters-back-norway-style-brexit-poll-reveals

As per the above, the Norway option polled well. Again perhaps born from ignorance that it meant giving up FOM but if they voted leave believing it an option perhaps they also weren't willing to lose single market access at all.

 

[Dobba]

Clearly people voted to leave because they're sick of unelected elites, therefore we need a referendum on the monarchy and if May doesn't deliver one she is an enemy of the people.

 

[JPRouve]

We voted on neither of those things so that's just an interpretation, one that May has certainly bought into but it doesn't necessarily follow that every leave voter voted that way.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/11/uk-voters-back-norway-style-brexit-poll-reveals

As per the above, the Norway option polled well. Again perhaps born from ignorance that it meant giving up FOM but if they voted leave believing it an option perhaps they also weren't willing to lose single market access at all.

Like I said your posts are confusing, you voted to leave the EU. When you leave the EU you automatically leave the single market there are no interpretations here that's the direct implication.

 

[Adebesi]

Pretty much every single expert on the matter advised the people over, and over, and over, and over again that leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market so it's completely fair. Those people chose to completely ignore it, gloss over it or in a lot of cases try to justify leaving the single market saying it was overrated, actually hindered us and would allow us to make more deals with everyone else. Now it's sinking in they're looking for someone else to blame rather than themselves.

You're right that the vote wasn't to leave the single market, but it was still made painfully clear that the vote to leave the EU included leaving the single market as a consequence, and still people voted to leave. It's not the fault of May for carrying out exactly what was said would happen before the vote.

The thing is the Remain side said repeatedly that if we leave we would end up outside the single market. But the Leave said gave a lot of mixed signals about it and people like Johnson repeatedly said we would be able to stay inside it, or we would end up with a deal that replicated it so we wouldnt feel the difference. All that stuff about how German car manufacturers wouldnt allow anything to happen to their biggest market, yadda yadda yadda. So I think some people probably did vote to leave taking him at his word and assuming all the stuff about how we would end up outside of it were simply "Project Fear".

Im not saying this to make the case that we shouldnt leave the single market though. I think it will be a disaster, or at least a very material drag on the economy, but it IS what people voted for, and if they were mislead then I guess that's bad luck for us Remainers, people always get lied to in elections. People were so busy during the campaign complaining about the lack of information, there was no time left over for actually looking at the information that was out there. The problem wasnt a lack of information at all, in fact, it was too much information, conflicting information, a lot of which was completely false.

I didnt have a strong opinion about referendums as a concept before, having not been involved in one before. But definitely this experience - and to a much lesser extent the one on electoral reform - has put me off them, big time. This stuff is too complex and people cant be trusted to inform themselves and make sensible decisions. That is why we elect people we trust or whose overall values we basically share, and let them make the difficult decisions for us.

But yeah, given that this happened, and the people voted the way they did, I do think we should come out of the single market and everything else and see how that goes. Because the alternative would be that while the economy would be better off, trust in politics will collapse even further. And we'd probably end up with a UKIP government sooner rather than later and come out anyway.

 

[jackofalltrades]

What was included in the referendum seems irrelevant to me. Anyone who could be bothered to look for the information could find it. They could refer to different sources and weigh up the pros and cons, decide who to trust and who not. It was Remain or Leave. That's what referenda do, give simple binary options. Brexiters argue that in the referendum on joining the EEC back in the 70s people weren't asked whether they wanted to be part of the EU as it is now.

 

[Zarlak]

The thing is the Remain side said repeatedly that if we leave we would end up outside the single market. But the Leave said gave a lot of mixed signals about it and people like Johnson repeatedly said we would be able to stay inside it, or we would end up with a deal that replicated it so we wouldnt feel the difference. All that stuff about how German car manufacturers wouldnt allow anything to happen to their biggest market, yadda yadda yadda. So I think some people probably did vote to leave taking him at his word and assuming all the stuff about how we would end up outside of it were simply "Project Fear".

Im not saying this to make the case that we shouldnt leave the single market though. I think it will be a disaster, or at least a very material drag on the economy, but it IS what people voted for, and if they were mislead then I guess that's bad luck for us Remainers, people always get lied to in elections. People were so busy during the campaign complaining about the lack of information, there was no time left over for actually looking at the information that was out there. The problem wasnt a lack of information at all, in fact, it was too much information, conflicting information, a lot of which was completely false.

I didnt have a strong opinion about referendums as a concept before, having not been involved in one before. But definitely this experience - and to a much lesser extent the one on electoral reform - has put me off them, big time. This stuff is too complex and people cant be trusted to inform themselves and make sensible decisions. That is why we elect people we trust or whose overall values we basically share, and let them make the difficult decisions for us.

But yeah, given that this happened, and the people voted the way they did, I do think we should come out of the single market and everything else and see how that goes. Because the alternative would be that while the economy would be better off, trust in politics will collapse even further. And we'd probably end up with a UKIP government sooner rather than later and come out anyway.

They didn't get mixed signals about it, that's what people will tell themselves to make themselves feel better, transfer the blame and take no personal responsibility. The overwhelming majority of experts gave very clear signals on it. If you dug hard enough for the one guy who disagreed with them then sure you could get mixed signals. Nobody was mislead. The experts all stood up and said 'if you leave the EU, you will leave the single market'. Boris Johnson and Michael Gove stood up and said hahaha nah mate we won't and that's enough for some people apparently.