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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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As an outsider I can't really see much difference between Trump and Brexit. Both were

a- fuelled by anti immigration and protectionist sentiment,
b- are anti Europe and anti political correctness
c- both are built around the idea that the country is being exploited and it deserves to be treated better
d- both gave power to capitalists

The Republicans have Trump, the Brexiters have Boris and Farage.

So this....we're better then Trump thing is really hypocritical.
 
Unmutual said:
Only one of the whips, and a junior one at that, but its still very unusual.

That said, he has no choice really. He's my MP, in an overwhelmingly Remain constituency that includes Didsbury and the Islington-in-the-North that is Chorlton, along with a massive student population. Voters here have a habit of kicking out MPs they don't like. The previous Labour MP got kicked out in 2005 for voting in favour of the Iraq war. Then the Lib Dem MP got kicked out at the last election as part of the Lib Dem backlash. I strongly suspect that if Jeff voted for A50 his seat would be at risk.
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Most MPs primary concern is their seat so those with large remain majorities are always going to vote that way. I imagine they've factored in 25-30 rebels.

Labour can't win here though, either decision was going to lead to bad press. This way those MPs following the will of their constituents shouldn't face a backlash and the party won't be labelled as a traitor. Best approach for the party but perhaps not for Corbyn's chances going forward.
 
devilish said:
As an outsider I can't really see much difference between Trump and Brexit. Both were

a- fuelled by anti immigration and protectionist sentiment,
b- are anti Europe and anti political correctness
c- both are built around the idea that the country is being exploited and it deserves to be treated better
d- both gave power to capitalists

The Republicans have Trump, the Brexiters have Boris and Farage.

So this....we're better then Trump thing is really hypocritical.
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The British establishment likes to see itself as the Greeks to the Romans. Superior and tutoring the inexperienced and less cultured. Britain's burden, as it were.
 
Of course Brexit and Trump aren't anti political correctness or pro free speech like they claim, although it is of course an easy label to throw on it to dress it up nicely.

It's the specific flavour of 'we, the morally superior, should be allowed, like in the good old days, to say anything under the sun without any of you government funds dependent, commie/leftists/liberals having any sort of reply!'. So when they say blatantly racist things or even just demonstrate hilariously obvious hypocrisy on certain subjects - it's wrong to call them out for it - that's political correctness apparently.
 
devilish said:
As an outsider I can't really see much difference between Trump and Brexit. Both were

a- fuelled by anti immigration and protectionist sentiment,
b- are anti Europe and anti political correctness
c- both are built around the idea that the country is being exploited and it deserves to be treated better
d- both gave power to capitalists

The Republicans have Trump, the Brexiters have Boris and Farage.

So this....we're better then Trump thing is really hypocritical.
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You're not wrong. Even the fecking slogans are similar. Make America Great Again. Get Our Country Back. Baby boomers trying to turn the clock back to a more conservative, idealised past.
 
jackofalltrades said:
The British establishment likes to see itself as the Greeks to the Romans. Superior and tutoring the inexperienced and less cultured. Britain's burden, as it were.
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I think you’re right.

Also am I the only one who see a possible clash of personality between May and Trump? On one hand you’ve got an conservative pastor’s daughter who now think she’s the new Iron Lady. On the other hand you’ve got the typical Alpha male whose got quite a reputation of bullying around weaker opponents and who probably believe that women are there to act pretty and stay in line.
 
devilish said:
I think you’re right.

Also am I the only one who see a possible clash of personality between May and Trump? On one hand you’ve got an conservative pastor’s daughter who now think she’s the new Iron Lady. On the other hand you’ve got the typical Alpha male whose got quite a reputation of bullying around weaker opponents and who probably believe that women are there to act pretty and stay in line.
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May is desperate for allies, so she will probably grin and bear it.
 
Smores said:
Most MPs primary concern is their seat so those with large remain majorities are always going to vote that way. I imagine they've factored in 25-30 rebels.

Labour can't win here though, either decision was going to lead to bad press. This way those MPs following the will of their constituents shouldn't face a backlash and the party won't be labelled as a traitor. Best approach for the party but perhaps not for Corbyn's chances going forward.
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They're certainly damned either way. While I still think backing Leave leaves them worse off on the cost:benefit ratio, there's an argument to be made either way.

But not for Corbyn. His authenticity and consistency are at the centre of his appeal, he really can't start making political compromises. Hes going against a members vote, enshrined at conference and he's making a political calculation, asking the party to back to back something they profoundly disagree with for the sake of winning votes (or not losing them anyway).

Many have already pointed out this is little different from the Welfare Reform bill debacle, and that was an abstention not a for vote.
 
Unmutual said:
They're certainly damned either way. While I still think backing Leave leaves them worse off on the cost:benefit ratio, there's an argument to be made either way.

But not for Corbyn. His authenticity and consistency are at the centre of his appeal, he really can't start making political compromises. Hes going against a members vote, enshrined at conference and he's making a political calculation, asking the party to back to back something they profoundly disagree with for the sake of winning votes (or not losing them anyway).

Many have already pointed out this is little different from the Welfare Reform bill debacle, and that was an abstention not a for vote.
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I foresee less memes titled "deselect now" going around Twitter this time.
 
May & Trump press conference:
May was less effusive, but she said she thought their relationship was good. She also said she thought they shared a commitment to acting in the interests of “ordinary working people”.

As the president himself said, I think we have already struck up a good relationship. You ask what we have in common. I think if you look at the approach that we are both taking, one of the things we have in common is that we want to put the interests of ordinary working people right up there centre stage.

One thing Brexit has brought about, which I thought I would never see in my lifetime is how much "the ordinary working people" love the Conservatives and how much the Conservatives care about "ordinary working people"
 
Ultimate Grib said:
Because immigrants coming to this country need credit to build their lives and no financial institution is going to lend to someone who doesn't make enough money to even pay taxes.

That's why I asked you that question.
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The question was about paying taxes, not lending money.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
May & Trump press conference:
May was less effusive, but she said she thought their relationship was good. She also said she thought they shared a commitment to acting in the interests of “ordinary working people”.

As the president himself said, I think we have already struck up a good relationship. You ask what we have in common. I think if you look at the approach that we are both taking, one of the things we have in common is that we want to put the interests of ordinary working people right up there centre stage.

One thing Brexit has brought about, which I thought I would never see in my lifetime is how much "the ordinary working people" love the Conservatives and how much the Conservatives care about "ordinary working people"
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Its like a breath of fresh air.

Next labour will be offering tax breaks to the rich and introducing austerity plans.
 
Unmutual said:
How so?
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Just to answer the question on why aren't Labour members up in arms like they were over the welfare bill, the answer is while Labour members are in the Remain camp they aren't anti the result. They (Like the rest of the public)know that the EU referendum result has to be respected and to be seen through. Plus after the referendum result, Labour(At the leadership level anyway)have always been about a different Brexit .

Just by chance who was comparing this to the welfare bill ?
 
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Stanley Road said:
Its like a breath of fresh air.

Next labour will be offering tax breaks to the rich and introducing austerity plans.
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:lol:

The British better pray that May´s words are just brown nosing and trying to get a good deal with Trump, because if she really believes that Trump´s policies so far are in favour of the ordinary working people she needs to have her head checked.

Not a single executive order Trump has made so far is in any way, shape or form in favour of the working class. They either don´t really affect them directly or will put them in a worse place than they are right now.

This is especially true with his protectionist economical plans. Scratching TPP, making threats towards their most important trade partners and of course his grand project on the southern border, which he appearantly plans to pay for afterwards by putting massive tariffs on Mexican goods.

Someone should tell the moron that his country runs on a hefty trade deficit and is very well dependent on imports, not only because a lot of stuff is not produced in the US, but also because production costs are way lower in other countries, which in the end lowers the prices for the consumers.

Now guess which classes buy the most imported goods, because they are far more affordable than US products? The lower and middle class.

The irony of this whole clusterfeck is that the vast majority of his voters will be the people who will suffer the most under his policy, which is aimed towrads no one else but the white elite of the country (the class he himself comes from).
 
Ultimate Grib said:
If you are self employed and don't make enough money to pay taxes you are not a good lending prospect. Can you see how the two are intertwined?
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Ultimate Grib said:
If you are self employed and don't make enough money to pay taxes you are not a good lending prospect. Can you see how the two are intertwined?
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I'm confused now. Most self employed folks are self employed to lower their tax exposure, under IR35. So are you saying that they want to be PAYE employees?
 
Chorley1974 said:
I'm confused now. Most self employed folks are self employed to lower their tax exposure, under IR35. So are you saying that they want to be PAYE employees?
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You seem to be completely oblivious to what I am saying. If you are not paying tax that means you are earning less than £11k which is the current personal allowance. That's less than minimum wage for normal 35 hour weeks and even lesser for the hours that they actually do. What financial institution post 2008 crash is going to lend to these people?
 
Ultimate Grib said:
You seem to be completely oblivious to what I am saying. If you are not paying tax that means you are earning less than £11k which is the current personal allowance. That's less than minimum wage for normal 35 hour weeks and even lesser for the hours that they actually do. What financial institution post 2008 crash is going to lend to these people?
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Subprime/Crappy mortgages are back, coincidentally.
 
Sweet Square said:
Just to answer the question on why aren't Labour members up in arms like they were over the welfare bill, the answer is while Labour members are in the Remain camp they aren't anti the result. They (Like the rest of the public)know that the EU referendum result has to be respected and to be seen through. Plus after the referendum result, Labour(At the leadership level anyway)have always been about a different Brexit .

Just by chance who was comparing this to the welfare bill ?
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When polled during the leadership contest last year a majority of Labour members favoured having a second referendum, 54% yes to 34% no (slightly bigger among full members).

I'm not sure what you mean by a different kind of Brexit, but obviously we're facing a Tory Brexit and that's what Labour are voting for.

The parallels with the reform bill seem pretty clear. Both were unpopular with Labour members but both had an electoral mandate, in both cases Labour didn't want to be seen to ignore what the public was saying, but wanted to use amendments to soften the worst of the blow.

As for who's saying it, it's just social media chat.
 
Ultimate Grib said:
You seem to be completely oblivious to what I am saying. If you are not paying tax that means you are earning less than £11k which is the current personal allowance. That's less than minimum wage for normal 35 hour weeks and even lesser for the hours that they actually do. What financial institution post 2008 crash is going to lend to these people?
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As if credit evaluation would happen solely on the basis of current income. If he can forward a coherent business plan he will be able to take a loan.
 
Unmutual said:
When polled during the leadership contest last year a majority of Labour members favoured having a second referendum, 54% yes to 34% no (slightly bigger among full members).

I'm not sure what you mean by a different kind of Brexit, but obviously we're facing a Tory Brexit and that's what Labour are voting for.

The parallels with the reform bill seem pretty clear. Both were unpopular with Labour members but both had an electoral mandate, in both cases Labour didn't want to be seen to ignore what the public was saying, but wanted to use amendments to soften the worst of the blow.

As for who's saying it, it's just social media chat.
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Ah come on the parallels are completely different - one was a debate that spread across 4 countries, biggest political decision since maybe WW2 and had more people voting it than any general election in the past. The other was hardly a public outcry over benefits but a plege in a tory manifesto(Which isn't worth the paper it's written on, ''we will safeguard British interests in the single market'' is one of it's pledges)by a tiny majority tory government.

Also what part of abstaining(And thus voting for)the Welfare Bill soften the blow ?
 
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Javi said:
As if credit evaluation would happen solely on the basis of current income. If he can forward a coherent business plan he will be able to take a loan.
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A coherent business plan might be able to secure a start up loan for the business. Barely making ends meet for years won't get you a loan regardless of any magical business plan you can come up with.

Income, expenses and credit rating are the sole criteria used to assess mortgage applications. It requires 2-3 years of accounts to be assessed before any decision is made. If income is ploughed into limited companies and no salary is withdrawn then banks will not do any sort of lending to the individual regardless of the profit the business might be making.
 
Ultimate Grib said:
A coherent business plan might be able to secure a start up loan for the business. Barely making ends meet for years won't get you a loan regardless of any magical business plan you can come up with.

Income, expenses and credit rating are the sole criteria used to assess mortgage applications. It requires 2-3 years of accounts to be assessed before any decision is made. If income is ploughed into limited companies and no salary is withdrawn then banks will not do any sort of lending to the individual regardless of the profit the business might be making.
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I agree with the first sentence, if we're talking about mortgages. I though the issue at hand was credit for business. However it shouldn't really make any difference for the bank whether what you earn is called "income" or "profit from a limited company" (if you take it as dividends, that is, but somehow you have to make ends meet, so...)
 
Javi said:
I agree with the first sentence, if we're talking about mortgages. I though the issue at hand was credit for business. However it shouldn't really make any difference for the bank whether what you earn is called "income" or "profit from a limited company" (if you take it as dividends, that is, but somehow you have to make ends meet, so...)
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No the issue I raised is that the self employed paying no tax would have difficulties obtaining credit.

A salary is a consistent guaranteed sum paid weekly or monthly so it provides more security. Dividends are paid anually and are not guaranteed hence the problem with using them as main source of income.
 
Sweet Square said:
Ah come on the parallels are completely different - one was a debate that spread across 4 countries, biggest political decision since maybe WW2 and had more people voting it than any general election in the past. The other was hardly a public outcry over benefits but a plege in a tory manifesto(Which isn't worth the paper it's written on, ''we will safeguard British interests in the single market'' is one of it's pledges)by a tiny majority tory government.
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The referendum may be more important, but its revisionist to downplay the Welfare Reform bill. It was the culmination of austerity, which had dominated politics for 5 years. Brexit will have much longer ramifications, probably, but austerity was to the last Parliament what Brexit is to this one, the overarching theme. Anyway the suggestion that Corbyn stuck to his guns when it didnt matter, but not when it did, is hardly complementary.

Besides, the scale of the thing works both ways. 5 million more people voted for Remain than voted for the Tories in 2015. If the show of support for Brexit was greater then any recent General Election, so was the scale of opposition to it.

You're right to point out that sometimes manifestos contain little noticed promises that people don't really consider, but you can't argue that austerity wasn't central to the last general election. The Tories said they'd shrink Government and the welfare state if they won, and they won, so they started to do just that. Whether you argue the letter of the law or the spirit of it, the Tories had electoral justification for what they wanted to do.
 
Unmutual said:
The referendum may be more important, but its revisionist to downplay the Welfare Reform bill. It was the culmination of austerity, which had dominated politics for 5 years. Brexit will have much longer ramifications, probably, but austerity was to the last Parliament what Brexit is to this one, the overarching theme. Anyway the suggestion that Corbyn stuck to his guns when it didnt matter, but not when it did, is hardly complementary.

Besides, the scale of the thing works both ways. 5 million more people voted for Remain than voted for the Tories in 2015. If the show of support for Brexit was greater then any recent General Election, so was the scale of opposition to it.

You're right to point out that sometimes manifestos contain little noticed promises that people don't really consider, but you can't argue that austerity wasn't central to the last general election. The Tories said they'd shrink Government and the welfare state if they won, and they won, so they started to do just that. Whether you argue the letter of the law or the spirit of it, the Tories had electoral justification for what they wanted to do.
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I'm not downplaying the welfare bill(I was one of those people who would have loved to see MPs deselected because of it)all I'm trying to do is give reasons why the Labour membership this time isn't up in arms about the Party voting for something they don't like.

So if you can't see the difference between how the Labour membership views the abstaining (And this voting for)of the Welfare bill and the vote to leave the EU than it's pointless carrying on the discussion.

Edit- Sorry if that sounded a bit cnuty.
 
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This is where Brexit has brought Britain today. May is in Ankara to talk with the man responsible for putting all of the journalists in jail, supporting ISIS, and currently in the process of running the economy into the ground by way of rewriting the constitution that states certain articles cannot be amended, although he'll break the law and do it anyway. Looking forward to seeing the shitty propaganda that's an attempt to spin this one.
 
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