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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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  • Poll closed .
Paul the Wolf said:
That's not my point, we've had a breakdown of age, of geographical position, of education etc , let's have a breakdown of amount of tax paid, I'll have a bet that the tax paid by the 48% is far superior to that paid by the 52%.
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It's very much my point. Democracy isn't accidental, it needed to be fought for and it needs respecting, today just as much as it ever did.
What's next on your list I wonder, why not have a breakdown of sex, race, religion, disability or immigration status while you're at it?
 
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712 said:
It's very much my point. Democracy isn't accidental, it needed to be fought for and it needs respecting, today just as much as it ever did.
What's next on your list I wonder, why not have a breakdown of sex, race, religion, disability or immigration status while you're at it?
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I have nothing against democracy , everyone should have a vote over 18.

Still missing my point - Jippy paid £174 towards the EU from his salary in a whole year, by the amount of tax he paid he earns a good wage.
Thus it can be taken that the amount of tax paid by the majority of people was much less than this amount.

Thus my point is the fallacy that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was partly due to the economic hardship caused by the EU on the average British person - in other words, a load of bs
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I have nothing against democracy , everyone should have a vote over 18.

Still missing my point - Jippy paid £174 towards the EU from his salary in a whole year, by the amount of tax he paid he earns a good wage.
Thus it can be taken that the amount of tax paid by the majority of people was much less than this amount.

Thus my point is the fallacy that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was partly due to the economic hardship caused by the EU on the average British person - in other words, a load of bs
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It's barely that much more than a TV licence or Hammersmith & Fulham annual parking permit. Hardly worth gambling your entire economy about.
That's the crazy thing.
 
Jippy said:
It's barely that much more than a TV licence or Hammersmith & Fulham annual parking permit. Hardly worth gambling your entire economy about.
That's the crazy thing.
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For a lot of people it's much less than that.
We all know it's nothing about money. People are prepared to sacrifice who knows what just to leave the EU.
There is one main reason but people try to hide behind other excuses.
 
Jippy said:
It's barely that much more than a TV licence or Hammersmith & Fulham annual parking permit. Hardly worth gambling your entire economy about.
That's the crazy thing.
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I agree entirely, a sum well worth paying for the benefits, political and economic, of EU membership as far as I'm concerned.

But we are where we are, etc.
Maybe we need two EU threads, one to re-fight the referendum and heap due blame upon the categories of voters responsible for getting it wrong, and one to actually discuss where we go from here.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I have nothing against democracy , everyone should have a vote over 18.

Still missing my point - Jippy paid £174 towards the EU from his salary in a whole year, by the amount of tax he paid he earns a good wage.
Thus it can be taken that the amount of tax paid by the majority of people was much less than this amount.

Thus my point is the fallacy that one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU was partly due to the economic hardship caused by the EU on the average British person - in other words, a load of bs
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What did he get in return for his 174? feck all I expect.

All you seem to be outlining is there are more Have Nots then Have's and thats a pitiful society, its also a reflection of most European countries I'd imagine.

But surely the Have Nots cannot all be thick, yet they might feel aggrieved.

It also sounds from your argument that only the better off feel the benefit of the eu.

Not a great reason to stay in
 
The "have nots" are huge benefactors and will suffer the most by exit. 1.4 billion quid a year was redirected to poorer areas. And the "have nots" pay next to nothing if not actually nothing for membership. Yet they also gained part of the 2 billion a year that EU migrants add to the UK economy, the vast majority of which they will probably now lose.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
For a lot of people it's much less than that.
We all know it's nothing about money. People are prepared to sacrifice who knows what just to leave the EU.
There is one main reason but people try to hide behind other excuses.
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Im prepared to sacrifice my job and possibly my house for a cause that grips me enough, what are you prepared to sacrifice to keep the uk in the eu Paul? what are you prepared to sacrifice for anything you believe in?
 
Wibble said:
The have nots are huge benefactors and will suffer the most by exit. And pay next to nothing if not actually nothing for membership. Yet they also gained part of the 2 billion a year that EU migrants add to the UK economy, the vast majority of which they will probably now lose.
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How are they huge beneficiaries,.how do they experience those benefits?
 
712 said:
Democracy isn't accidental, it needed to be fought for and it needs respecting, today just as much as it ever did.
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It's not a be all and end all on it's own. There are bad democracies too where the corrupt few take advantage of the public. Kind of a common theme amongst most developing world democracies imo. I don't respect democracy just because it is so. It's the way it functions, people who govern etc that deserve it's respect.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
For a lot of people it's much less than that.
We all know it's nothing about money. People are prepared to sacrifice who knows what just to leave the EU.
There is one main reason but people try to hide behind other excuses.
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Indeed. We had the anti-Polish graffiti on the local community centre round here. It's sad, we have a large EU national population in H&F and my own wife is brown and foreign born. Someone's going to do something really stupid at some point.
712 said:
I agree entirely, a sum well worth paying for the benefits, political and economic, of EU membership as far as I'm concerned.

But we are where we are, etc.
Maybe we need two EU threads, one to re-fight the referendum and heap due blame upon the categories of voters responsible for getting it wrong, and one to actually discuss where we go from here.
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We might as well have two threads- I doubt anyone has changed their entrenched view in this thread.
 
Stanley Road said:
Im prepared to sacrifice my job and possibly my house for a cause that grips me enough, what are you prepared to sacrifice to keep the uk in the eu Paul? what are you prepared to sacrifice for anything you believe in?
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Most people paid nowhere near £174 a year, it's nothing or next to nothing in most cases.

I'm not sacrificing anything, always stay a step ahead of the game.

As since the beginning of this whole story, I want the real reason behind all this to be pronounced, very few will say the real reason.
 
Stanley Road said:
What did he get in return for his 174? feck all I expect.

All you seem to be outlining is there are more Have Nots then Have's and thats a pitiful society, its also a reflection of most European countries I'd imagine.

But surely the Have Nots cannot all be thick, yet they might feel aggrieved.

It also sounds from your argument that only the better off feel the benefit of the eu.

Not a great reason to stay in
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I don't expect a direct personal return from my mighty £174, but my firm has offices in Europe and I worry about my colleagues. My father was an accountant with mainly farmers as clients. I worry about them too.
My job security is directly linked to the financial markets, so that also makes me nervous.
I'm still struggling to see any upside from Brexit, but we're on page 308 of this thread and well beyond the original battle lines.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Most people paid nowhere near £174 a year, it's nothing or next to nothing in most cases.

I'm not sacrificing anything, always stay a step ahead of the game.

As since the beginning of this whole story, I want the real reason behind all this to be pronounced, very few will say the real reason.
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what are you prepared to sacrifice for your beliefs?
 
Jippy said:
I don't expect a direct personal return from my mighty £174, but my firm has offices in Europe and I worry about my colleagues. My father was an accountant with mainly farmers as clients. I worry about them too.
My job security is directly linked to the financial markets, so that also makes me nervous.
I'm still struggling to see any upside from Brexit, but we're on page 308 of this thread and well beyond the original battle lines.
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Well th eu wont guarantee my status in holland, am i worried, not at all.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
It's not a be all and end all on it's own. There are bad democracies too where the corrupt few take advantage of the public. Kind of a common theme amongst most developing world democracies imo. I don't respect democracy just because it is so. It's the way it functions, people who govern etc that deserve it's respect.
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Sell me a better system by all means.

I get democracy hasn't worked everywhere, and I reckon I was ahead of the curve in realising many peoples would rather back their religious or ethnic group over political principle, but this is a thread about the UK, where democracy used to a thing to be looked up to and fought for, and for me it still is.
 
1.4 billion euro a year in things ranging from infrastructure to business development grants, unemployment mitigation schemes like the 175 million quid one that helped MG Rover employees find work when they collapsed, multimillion pound redevelopment of Swansea waterfront museum and uni campus, Liverpool alone got 1.3 billion quid over 9 years with another half billion on its way and Manchester has benefited nearly as much with many schemes producing financial benefit to the area well after the initial funding stopped. The NE, Scotland and Cornwall have been huge net receivers.

The irony is the Jippy's of the world who are actually paying something for all this benefit are getting little or nothing directly in return but are more than willing to pay it because of the huge indirect financial and social benefits of membership mainly voted to stay.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
All I said was that system doesn't matter standalone. It's how it's implemented that makes it deserving respect or not. For example, Pakistan is a constitutionally democratic country....but would you respect what's happening there?
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You deleted the second sentence of my quote, maybe because it would have answered your question.
 
From another board, on a forthcoming by-election:
The UKIP guy is well known for being a liar and is an absolute arsehole, surely not even leave voters would be daft enough to vote for Eddie Hitler
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:lol:
 
Wibble said:
1.4 billion euro a year in things ranging from infrastructure to business development grants, unemployment mitigation schemes like the 175 million quid one that helped MG Rover employees find work when they collapsed, multimillion pound redevelopment of Swansea waterfront museum and uni campus, Liverpool alone got 1.3 billion quid over 9 years with another half billion on its way and Manchester has benefited nearly as much with many schemes producing financial benefit to the area well after the initial funding stopped. The NE, Scotland and Cornwall have been huge net receivers.

The irony is the Jippy's of the world who are actually paying something for all this benefit are getting little or nothing directly in return but are more than willing to pay it because of the huge indirect financial and social benefits of membership mainly voted to stay.
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This is the ridiculous sutuation we find ourselves in. I've said before that I'd not moan at an extra penny on income tax for the NHS. Maybe that is easy for me to say as someone who is comfortable and has a wife earning a good chunk more. Stick it just on higher rate tax then.

But if those Sunderland voters who voted out in their droves lose their lifeblood Nissan plant, it's the likes of me and my wife who'll be footing the tab. Surefire way to build more mutual resentment and reinforce the north/south divide.
 
Jippy said:
This is the ridiculous sutuation we find ourselves in. I've said before that I'd not moan at an extra penny on income tax for the NHS. Maybe that is easy for me to say as someone who is comfortable and has a wife earning a good chunk more. Stick it just on higher rate tax then.

But if those Sunderland voters who voted out in their droves lose their lifeblood Nissan plant, it's the likes of me and my wife who'll be footing the tab. Surefire way to build more mutual resentment and reinforce the north/south divide.
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Out of interest, will you still be going Tory in 2020? Surely this shambles has been enough to tempt you off them?
 
Cheesy said:
Out of interest, will you still be going Tory in 2020? Surely this shambles has been enough to tempt you off them?
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Well seeing as how everyone else keeps repeating themselves, let's be clear:

This entire Brexit shambles is the fault of everyone who voted Tory in the last election. The referendum was quite clearly in the manifesto, and if you voted Conservative, then you're to blame.

Stick your demographic categorising on that.
 
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Will Absolute said:
One Belgian province recently almost scuppered an EU trade deal with Canada. Wallonia will have no say in any future British trade deal with the Canadians.

The argument that Britain has a bigger voice inside the EU is only true if the EU faithfully echoes Britain's opinions and interests. It doesn't. Britain's input is diluted by the input of 27 other countries who may have very different views.
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But how can one such small province have a democratic say in something so large and important within the dictatorship that is the EU, when Britain of £65m people had to leave the EU to bring back this control to Westminster?
 
Will Absolute said:
One Belgian province recently almost scuppered an EU trade deal with Canada. Wallonia will have no say in any future British trade deal with the Canadians.

The argument that Britain has a bigger voice inside the EU is only true if the EU faithfully echoes Britain's opinions and interests. It doesn't. Britain's input is diluted by the input of 27 other countries who may have very different views.
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The only problem with your argument is that it is bollocks. Britain, German, France etc do have a bigger voice and greater influence that has always resulted in us having a large influence over future direction. How do you think we got such a favorable rebate deal (that we have now pissed away)? It certainly wasn't because we have the influence of Wallonia.

And mention of Wallonia is disingenuous. The issue that nearly scuppered the deal in question was that Belgium (not Wallonia) nearly didn't back it. Belgium might have a sub optimum system that allowed a state to nearly stop a National level decision but who are we to complain when we have fecked things right up by allowing a referendum due to political horsetrading which bit everyone in the arse, other member states included.
 
Ultimate Grib said:
But how can one such small province have a democratic say in something so large and important within the dictatorship that is the EU, when Britain of £65m people had to leave the EU to bring back this control to Westminster?
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That is one of the worst non sequiturs in this thread and it has some competition.
 
Can someone remind me what the advantages are again, because I can't seem to see any.

A good friend of mine was banging on about people coming from other European countries, former Eastern Block type countries, and using the NHS for free, which I am not actually sure they are allowed to do. Anyway, that is something that can be easily sorted without actually withdrawing from Europe.

I understood that the thing with the NHS was that British nationals can use health services in Europe for free and those countries reclaim the cost from the UK (E101) and by the same token, Europeans can use the NHS and the NHS can reclaim the costs from the country of the patient.

It's basically bollocks and a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
 
Jippy said:
It's a tough one. I wouldn't vote for either mainstream party right now and we have no credible opposition, in reality.
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It's always a lesser of 2 evils in any election. They are both shite, and always have been, it's just a question of which one is least likely to feck things up completely. Since Labour always feck things up completely, it kind of narrows down the choices, unless you are a racist bigot, in which case you can now vote for UKIP.
 
Sassy Colin said:
It's always a lesser of 2 evils in any election. They are both shite, and always have been, it's just a question of which one is least likely to feck things up completely. Since Labour always feck things up completely, it kind of narrows down the choices, unless you are a racist bigot, in which case you can now vote for UKIP.
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I'd normally agree, but the clusterfeck of a referendum was obviously on the Tories' watch.
 
The referendum was clearly in their manifesto, people got what they voted (badly) for.

I suppose you could say Cameron and Osborne have paid the political price though, maybe potential Tory voters should now be concentrating on how well or how badly the current lot are handling it. As a Labour geezer I'm in complete despair, I can't see any centre-left alternative at all.
 
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