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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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712 said:
Corbyn was a nonentity in 2015, Labour's leader was Miliband, or you could have voted for Clegg's lot. The manifestos were simple, Cameron wanted a referendum, the others didn't.
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I was talking about this year re Corbyn. In 2015 Cameron got more votes because of the referendum promise. If I had been in the UK at that time, would I have voted for Cameron , probably yes - but not for the referendum. A lot of Tory supporters are not anti EU and a lot of Labour supporters are not pro-EU so the lines are smudged, Liberals are a non-important option - as I've said for some time if I was now in the UK I'd have no idea who to vote for and meaningless votes are just a waste of time.
 
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rcoobc said:
I voted Labour because

a) My local Labour Candidate was more pro-remain than my local Liberal Candidate (who seemed to be blaise about Europe and was a Union Leader)
b) Labour are the only party that offered anything in the last election
c) Lib Dems offered NOTHING in the last election

And I consider myself a Lib Dem centralist first and foremost

So - I agree
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i voted labour during Miliband administration and Lib dem during the last GE. We're closer in political views than we think
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I was talking about this year re Corbyn. In 2015 Cameron got more votes because of the referendum promise. If I had been in the UK at that time, would I have voted for Cameron , probably yes - but not for the referendum. A lot of Tory supporters are not anti EU and a lot of Labour supporters are not pro-EU so the lines are smudged, Liberals are a non-important option - as I've said for some time if I was now in the UK I'd have no idea who to vote for and meaningless votes are just a waste of time.
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The irony
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I was talking about this year re Corbyn. In 2015 Cameron got more votes because of the referendum promise. If I had been in the UK at that time, would I have voted for Cameron , probably yes - but not for the referendum. A lot of Tory supporters are not anti EU and a lot of Labour supporters are not pro-EU so the lines are smudged, Liberals are a non-important option - as I've said for some time if I was now in the UK I'd have no idea who to vote for and meaningless votes are just a waste of time.
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Which is why you don't like the idea of Cameron and the Tories being responsible for the referendum and erroneously brought Corbyn into it, presumably as an attempt at deflection.

I understand the discomfort but the fact remains, Cameron and the Conservative party campaigned for the referendum and anyone that voted for them shares the responsibility.
 
712 said:
Which is why you don't like the idea of Cameron and the Tories being responsible for the referendum and erroneously brought Corbyn into it, presumably as an attempt at deflection.

I understand the discomfort but the fact remains, Cameron and the Conservative party campaigned for the referendum and anyone that voted for them shares the responsibility.
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Cameron and the Tories are responsible for the referendum, the result was because of gullible people believing a load of rubbish.
I brought Corbyn in (2017) because May offered a chance to stop this idiocy (even though she thought she was cementing her position) but Corbyn didn't want to stop it either so there was no chance to stop it.

I think both May and Corbyn are equally despicable
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
Cameron and the Tories are responsible for the referendum, the result was because of gullible people believing a load of rubbish.
I brought Corbyn in (2017) because May offered a chance to stop this idiocy (even though she thought she was cementing her position) but Corbyn didn't want it to stop it either so there was no chance to stop it.

I think both May and Corbyn are equally despicable
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Gullible tories yes and you still would have voted for a referendum by proxy. You couldn't make this up.
 
Stanley Road said:
Gullible tories yes and you still would have voted for a referendum by proxy. You couldn't make this up.
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When you think of all the cash wealthy city types poured into the Tory election coffers, and now they're moaning at what's going to happen.
I think turkeys voting for christmas is the apposite phrase, hackneyed though it is.
 
Stanley Road said:
Gullible tories yes and you still would have voted for a referendum by proxy. You couldn't make this up.
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Rubbish, you think only tories voted for leave, the only people I know who voted to leave were all traditional Labour voters who now think May and Boris are the dogs "nuts" - if I had voted from where I used to live it would make no difference anyway, most of my adult life I lived in safe Tory seats with 20k+ majorities.
this Tory/Labour thing is rubbish too with regards to the referendum.
 
712 said:
When you think of all the cash wealthy city types poured into the Tory election coffers, and now they're moaning at what's going to happen.
I think turkeys voting for christmas is the apposite phrase, hackneyed though it is.
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I'm not sure the wealthy were entirely against Brexit. They're pro status quo for the most part but they always seem to get stronger during economic catastrophes. It's their interests which are being represented in exit negotiation.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Rubbish, you think only tories voted for leave, the only people I know who voted to leave were all traditional Labour voters who now think May and Boris are the dogs "nuts" - if I had voted from where I used to live it would make no difference anyway, most of my adult life I lived in safe Tory seats with 20k+ majorities.
this Tory/Labour thing is rubbish too with regards to the referendum.
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I'm not sure you understand what a party manifesto is. The Tory manifesto was clearly for a referendum, and the both Labour and the Liberals against.

edit: Farage wanted one as well.
 
712 said:
I'm not sure you understand what a party manifesto is. The Tory manifesto was clearly for a referendum, and the both Labour and the Liberals against.

edit: Farage wanted one as well.
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I agree

Slight correction though. Farage offered Brexit WITHOUT referendum.
 
712 said:
I'm not sure you understand what a party manifesto is. The Tory manifesto was clearly for a referendum, and the both Labour and the Liberals against.

edit: Farage wanted one as well.
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You're talking as if the party manifesto was to leave - it was to have an advisory vote, that's all.

Apart from anything else I wasn't even interested in UK politics in 2015 or in 2010. I haven't voted in the UK since 2005 but some on here are trying to insinuate I was partly responsible:lol:.

It was only in latter 2015 that warning signs showed something incredibly stupid was afoot in good old Blighty
 
712 said:
I'm not sure you understand what a party manifesto is. The Tory manifesto was clearly for a referendum, and the both Labour and the Liberals against.

edit: Farage wanted one as well.
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True but people don't generally vote on a single issue, just as it was wrong to paint people voting Labour in this year's election as supporting a hard Brexit just because Labour or at least Corbyn had indicated they would leave the single market. The sad truth is a lot of people (not least Cameron) were complacent about the likely outcome of a referendum, probably not realising just how fractured British society had become.

As for the wealthy Tories getting their deserts, it's more a case of the super-rich (Banks, Murdoch etc) achieving their nefarious aims by coopting gullible people with an ill-defined grievance (see also Donald Trump).
 
Paul the Wolf said:
What the hell are you on about?
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The idea that Theresa May is as despicable as Corbyn, or most other politicians at that, is bollocks. Her and a healthy majority of conservative MPs are genuinely bad people.

It's amazing that a group of people who consistently vote to make the lives of disabled people worse aren't hounded out of the country.
 
Silva said:
The idea that Theresa May is as despicable as Corbyn, or most other politicians at that, is bollocks. Her and a healthy majority of conservative MPs are genuinely bad people.
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Presume you mean you think May is more despicable than Corbyn - I don't hold any politician in any high regard, most of them are in it for their own benefit and when people vote they usually do it for their own benefit as well. As I haven't voted for any politician or event anywhere in the world in the last 12 years ...
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You're talking as if the party manifesto was to leave - it was to have an advisory vote, that's all.

Apart from anything else I wasn't even interested in UK politics in 2015 or in 2010. I haven't voted in the UK since 2005 but some on here are trying to insinuate I was partly responsible:lol:.

It was only in latter 2015 that warning signs showed something incredibly stupid was afoot in good old Blighty
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Was the word advisory in the manifesto? Was it mentioned by Cameron and his team even once in the campaign? Was it in the wording of the referendum question itself?

I'm not insinuating you're to blame for anything, unless you voted Tory in 2015, in which case you are.
You do seem strangely sensitive about it, but I suppose there could be many reasons for that.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Presume you mean you think May is more despicable than Corbyn - I don't hold any politician in any high regard, most of them are in it for their own benefit and when people vote they usually do it for their own benefit as well. As I haven't voted for any politician or event anywhere in the world in the last 12 years ...
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You don't have to hold them in high regard. Even if all politicians were self interested sociopaths, it's obvious in their voting record that some are significantly worse than others.
 
712 said:
Was the word advisory in the manifesto? Was it mentioned by Cameron and his team even once in the campaign? Was it in the wording of the referendum question itself?

I'm not insinuating you're to blame for anything, unless you voted Tory in 2015, in which case you are.
You do seem strangely sensitive about it, but I suppose there could be many reasons for that.
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As I said I've no idea what was in the manifesto in 2015 or 2010 and as I said I haven't voted for years. I'm not sensitive about it, just find it funny when people are trying to shift blame from the obvious reasons
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Rubbish, you think only tories voted for leave
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No, they voted for a referendum by proxy and this referendum had only 2 outcomes. so yeah, they have got exactly what they deserve and they should just shut it now and get on with it. Blaming labour voters for anything is ridiculous. Personally I hope all tory voters suffer for their naivety, I really do.
 
Silva said:
You don't have to hold them in high regard. Even if all politicians were self interested sociopaths, it's obvious in their voting record that some are significantly worse than others.
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True but regard is maybe the wrong word, I wouldn't trust any of them, but in the end people vote for those who would appear more beneficial or least damaging to their own personal situation
 
Stanley Road said:
No, they voted for a referendum by proxy and this referendum had only 2 outcomes. so yeah, they have got exactly what they deserve and they should just shut it now and get on with it. Blaming labour voters for anything is ridiculous. Personally I hope all tory voters suffer for their naivety, I really do.
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No you blame the Tory voters who voted to leave, you blame the UKIP voters who voted for leave and the Labour voters who voted for leave or any other party.
Surely the 2015 GE was not just about one thing. The most likely outcome of the referendum was to stay, even Farage thought so just the night before the result.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
No you blame the Tory voters who voted to leave, you blame the UKIP voters who voted for leave and the Labour voters who voted for leave or any other party.
Surely the 2015 GE was not just about one thing. The most likely outcome of the referendum was to stay, even Farage thought so just the night before the result.
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How could any of them vote if there was no referendum. Blame lies with cameron and his voters. The End
 
Stanley Road said:
How could any of them vote if there was no referendum. Blame lies with cameron and his voters. The End
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But there was a referendum and they did have a choice what to vote for, no-one forced them to vote leave, only because they believed what they were brainwashed into believing - what is it now then , because the reality is starting to hit home, it's "wasn't my fault, guv"
 
Stanley Road said:
This is Exactly how people vote
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Not in a general election. I am fairly certain most of Corbyn's younger supporters are pro-EU, just as most centre-right conservative voters in 2015 focused more on their general level of confidence in Cameron/Osbourne vs Milliband/Balls rather than the referendum bone thrown to the rabid Eurosceptic wing.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But there was a referendum and they did have a choice what to vote for, no-one forced them to vote leave, only because they believed what they were brainwashed into believing - what is it now then , because the reality is starting to hit home, it's "wasn't my fault, guv"
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Paul, no tory govt no ref, its not.hard.to get. I saw a bloke in the bookies back an odds on horse in a 2 horse race, guess what happened?
 
MoskvaRed said:
Not in a general election. I am fairly certain most of Corbyn's younger supporters are pro-EU, just as most centre-right conservative voters in 2015 focused more on their general level of confidence in Cameron/Osbourne vs Milliband/Balls rather than the referendum bone thrown to the rabid Eurosceptic wing.
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I used.to work with this builder in thr 90s, hos mum didnt know how to vote so.he asked her what her main concern was, nuclear threat, so she voted tory.
 
Stanley Road said:
Paul, no tory govt no ref, its not.hard.to get. I saw a bloke in the bookies back an odds on horse in a 2 horse race, guess what happened?
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Just because Trump's got a nuclear weapon, doesn't mean he has to press the red button, although the way people are turning into mindless zombies, guess what happened?
 
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