My Dad was a builder and he voted Leave. The lesson is, don't take political advice from builders. We can all come up with anecdotes but I do not think most Tory voters voted for Cameron in 2015 because of the referendum pledge. It was a strategic move to shut up his right wing and neutralise UKIP. It may have carried him from a hung parliament to a majority but I doubt most Tory voters below 50 cared too much about this issue, and certainly not the professional class in the City referred to in the "it bit them on the arse" comment above to which I originally responded.
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My Dad was a builder and he voted Leave. The lesson is, don't take political advice from builders. We can all come up with anecdotes but I do not think most Tory voters voted for Cameron in 2015 because of the referendum pledge. It was a strategic move to shut up his right wing and neutralise UKIP. It may have carried him from a hung parliament to a majority but I doubt most Tory voters below 50 cared too much about this issue, and certainly not the professional class in the City referred to in the "it bit them on the arse" comment above to which I originally responded.
No they didnt vote for cameron cos of ref, i might have mentioned that a thousand times. Its what they got by proxy, they knew that and have to live with that..get it?
If i give you a box of fireworks, do you have more or less chance of a firework injury than if i didnt? We know the answer dont we?
No difference, I wouldn't be stupid enough to hold onto a lit rocket even though some bloke called Nigel or Boris told me it wouldn't be dangerous.
Indeed - so rather than blame people who thought Cameron was a better bet than Milliband for a host of reasons (notwithstanding the pledge to hold a referendum that was expected to be a comfortable win for remain), we are back to blaming the people who voted for it, people who swallowed the lies and thought leaving the EU would somehow reverse 80+ years of ecomomic decay and that oversized fomer market towns could get back some of their old glory. In other words, the mug who signed up to the Brexit ticket is a lot more responsible than the person who, among many other considerations, which may or may not have included the referendum,voted Conservative.
You are missing or avoiding the point. I think you know which.
The point is that holding the referendum was fair enough, even though I don't agree with them because the people who vote in them do not have the necessary qualifications or information to make an informed decision.
I even accept people voting the opposite of my opinion as long as they are properly informed and understand the consequences of their actions. But when it is blindingly obvious that so many people voted because they were lied to, so misinformed and still now don't realise what the consequences of those actions will be, it is beyond belief.
Thats avoiding the point and you know damn well. You are trying to blame others for your like minded set's stupidity.
So if I give you a gun, you have no willpower not to shoot yourself, thus you will shoot yourself and thus you will believe that I have murdered you.
This is exactly the feeble-mindedness that I'm moaning about.
Whoever voted for Cameron's Tory party was also voting for a Brexit referendum. It is that simple.
We need to stop agreeing with Stanley, this isn't healthy.
I don't
We need to stop agreeing with Stanley, this isn't healthy.
true
Cameron's promise for a Brexit referendum was a centerpiece of Tory party GE strategy. It was not some ridiculous proposal buried deep in their manifesto whom no one would ever take seriously. Whoever voted that day knew exactly what they were voting for.
Obviously he did it to attact Labour and UKIP voters over to the Tories to make sure they got in to power, but it backfired because he underestimated the outcome.
Thus according to you the only reason anyone voted for the Tories was to have a Brexit referendum which everyone in 2015 knew would result in a Leave vote and anyone who voted for another party didn't want a referendum or to leave.
I call nonsense.
I am not saying that they voted for just the Brexit referendum. For example I know some who voted Tory during that election because of the tax cuts. However let us not kid ourselves on this. They knew the risks involving voting for the Tory party (ie a referendum on Brexit) and they still voted for it. Its not just Cameron who underestimated the outcome but every silly remainer who voted for the Tory party during that particular GE.
I dare to say that they are more to blame then the leavers. At least the leavers were fed tons of lies about Brexit including 4-5 scenarios (hard brexit, a cherry picking deal with Europe, EFTA, EEA, Boris negotiating a better deal with the EU and then offer a second referendum in two years time etc). The Brexit referendum was pretty clear to everybody. You vote Tory and you'll end up with a Brexit referendum.
I don't agree, I don't see how a traditional Tory voter would vote for Labour to be in government. Do you really think that Tories thought that even if there was a referendum , people would actually vote Leave, Cameron certainly didn't and I would guess most people didn't on all sides, the risk at that time was small. Being wise after the event etc.
Obviously the leavers were fed tons of lies and the remain campaign was hopeless - the blame is fully on the people who voted to leave, 100% because they can't think for themselves.
Edit: if the only subject of the 2015 GE was about Brexit, why didn't everyone who wanted to leave vote for UKIP - result was guaranteed - but they got what one seat?
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Harsh.....
There were also plenty of people who voted to REMAIN because they, equally, couldn't think for themselves and believed Project Fear.
But agree - both sides lied and too many people believed the lies from both sides.
By the way, I see the ' Divorce Bill ' is now being suggested at 60 million, not 100 million, although still no itemised bill.
Seems like a bargain to me, just a couple of years' of the equivalent Trade Defecit on the UK's trade with the EU assuming, of course, no FTA.
I don't disagree with the thinking for themselves part but as I've said all along such vital, virtually irreversible decisions should not be put in the hands of people who basically don't understand very much about the decision they're making.
I think the bill is itemised showing what the items are but without an actual figure - it's a question of whether the Uk are willing to agree in principle to pay those items.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-work-longer-hours-uk-leave-eu-a7922486.html
How do these people run the country
How do these people run the country
I was in that same situation a couple of years ago. My family are as labour as one can be and yet, I ended up voting to the nationalist party simply because the PN was in favour of EU membership while the labour party was not. I had family and friends who stop speaking to me because of that Yet that was the right decision to take and today even labour agrees that their views on the matter were wrong.
So seriously, I am the last person who can show sympathy to these traditional tory voters who voted out of loyalty rather then just use their brains. TBH I honestly struggle how anyone whose neither filthy rich nor old can vote to the Tory Party in the first place. But that's just me.
The Brexit referendum was a centerpiece of Cameron's strategy to win the GE. Those who voted for the Tory party knew exactly that a Brexit referendum will follow.
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If I Offer you a referendum and you truly don't want to leave the EU, you vote for someone else. Unless of course, you are an arrogant tory.
I think I'd side with the public ( whichever side of the vote ) because they know what and how their lives in their own country to be, rather than trust any politician ( whichever side of the spectrum ) to actually do what's best for the public rather than what's best for their own ideology and careers, of course.
The EU ( in it's original format as a Trading Bloc ) would have been just fine, perfect almost, if the politicians with their ideology hadn't got their hands on it.
Heads or Tails, the risk was massive
Yes they knew a referendum would follow but you're talking as if it was a foregone conclusion that Leave would win, which was far from the case at the time
Not if you don't agree with the other policies, if you want to leave, vote for UKIP - but then people didn't because they didn't agree with some of their other policies, which is exactly my point.
I agree with you about the politicians but if you are going to vote one way or the other, make sure that you have the correct information, even now 99% of the population couldn't name an EU law that infringes on their personal life but many voted because of that amongst many other things they were lied to about.
It was a foregone conclusion that a pandora's box was going to be opened which may have lead to a disaster. Which in my opinion is pretty crazy considering that the Tory Party was still going to win that election either way.
That isn't fair, because the Tories also promised to continue to ruin the lives of disabled people and push thousands to their deaths and that is like promising a child a new shiny red bike if they eat their veg.
But would they have won the election if they hadn't, serious question, after all they needed the Liberals in 2010 and they need the DUP now.
It doesn't matter what your point is cos if you don't want a referendum vote someone else or don't vote at all, it's quite simple, I'd expect a five year old to understand it.
This makes no sense.
If I had voted at the time and the Tories had said - right we're leaving the EU - of course I would have voted against them , but that's not what happened.
Edit roll on to 2017 GE - most Tory MPs were pro-EU and most Labour MP's are pro-EU but both leaders are anti-EU - what do people do?
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Yeah totally no risk at all, I get it
There's a risk in everything, Cameron could have turned round and said they weren't going to have a referendum after he got elected so people who wanted a referendum could have voted for them for nothing.
Still don't see how you or anyone relieves the culpability of the people who actually did vote leave from the consequences of what happens after Brexit.
Same old, same old, always blame somebody else.
If you vote for someone then you're voting for all their policies, whether you like all of them or not.
In this case a vote for the Tories was a vote for a referendum. Not everyone who voted Tory wanted a referendum but they voted for one all the same.
No party is going to perfectly represent your world view in its entirety. Each individual voter has to decide what compromises they're willing to make and vote accordingly. In this case the pro-EU Tory voters made their compromise on the referendum and risked the general public voting in a way that ultimately didn't suit them. In retrospect the assumption that the vote wouldn't go against them was (given the high stakes) terribly reckless and naive.
There's more than enough blame to go around but those who knowingly voted for a Tory party promising a referendum have to take their share.
In this case a vote for the Tories was a vote for a referendum. Not everyone who voted Tory wanted a referendum but they voted for one all the same.
No party is going to perfectly represent your world view in its entirety. Each individual voter has to decide what compromises they're willing to make and vote accordingly. In this case the pro-EU Tory voters made their compromise on the referendum and risked the general public voting in a way that ultimately didn't suit them. In retrospect the assumption that the vote wouldn't go against them was (given the high stakes) terribly reckless and naive.
There's more than enough blame to go around but those who knowingly voted for a Tory party promising a referendum have to take their share.
Blame someone else, that's rich. Blaming someone else is all you've done for the past 20 posts.
Why are apportioning the blame more than one year after the referendum and what good does it do?
This is what Paul isn't getting
I agree with you about the politicians but if you are going to vote one way or the other, make sure that you have the correct information, even now 99% of the population couldn't name an EU law that infringes on their personal life but many voted because of that amongst many other things they were lied to about.
I'm sure there are '00s of '000s in the UK and here who can't, but there were lots of people in the UK who voted not about EU Law and the ECJ, didn't believe either side's promises, lies and threats, etc, but experience the EU's effects on ALL its members in their everyday life.
Live in some countries, those effects are the equivalent of the Golden Goose.
Live in other countries, and it's pretty easy to believe the EU just takes the piss.
The EU doesn't create wealth for everyone - the cake is a finite size, and everytime you give people more than they contribute to making it, it means somone else receives less that they contribute to making it.
I'm fairly sure that's how most people in the UK were thinking when they voted to leave.
I'm sure there are '00s of '000s in the UK and here who can't, but there were lots of people in the UK who voted not about EU Law and the ECJ, didn't believe either side's promises, lies and threats, etc, but experience the EU's effects on ALL its members in their everyday life.
Live in some countries, those effects are the equivalent of the Golden Goose.
Live in other countries, and it's pretty easy to believe the EU just takes the piss.
The EU doesn't create wealth for everyone - the cake is a finite size, and everytime you give people more than they contribute to making it, it means somone else receives less that they contribute to making it.
I'm fairly sure that's how most people in the UK were thinking when they voted to leave.
Blame someone else, that's rich. Blaming someone else is all you've done for the past 20 posts.
I'm blaming the people that actually did it, sounds reasonable to me.
I've gathered that the labour contingent have united from both sides to bash the tories and absolve labour from any wrongdoing.
Carry on if it makes you happy - I've no sympathy with the tories or labour for quite some time.
It's quite unbeleviable, isn't it
.How these people even dare to open their mouths in public. Drive the country they are running down the drain, for no good reason other than vanity, and then come back with 'I just feel'.
It's so depressing. I love the British people even if i'm not one of them. They deserve better than this. They deserve better than the incompetent buffons now complaining that their own fantasies won't come to fruition. Fox now saying the UK won't be 'Blackmailed', FFS, they are actively ruining their country's negotiating position by insulting the ones they are negotiating with.
And to think that their counterparts were even willing to act as if they hadn't heard the million and one lies told about them during the campaign... for the common good. The Brits should get out their pitchforks and drive out these lunatics sabotaging their and their childrens future.
I did say it was one of the reasons. I'll be waiting to find out how these people's lives have been improved by voting as they did in say 5 years time