Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Stanley Road said:
To me its bewildering yes. Especially in this thread. Dont you see the irony? No one is quoting from it but remainers, remainers that claim brexiters believed its lies.
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It's an easy window into Brexiters' worldview because for us 'remoaners' it is just hard to understand illogical thinking based on delusion.

If you read the comments, you'll clearly see a lot of Brexiters frequent the rag because the dumbest comments always end up as most recommended. It is a handy research tool and a source for much-needed laughter in these times of taking back control with a lying and morally bankrupt government.
 
Jippy said:
Tell us something we don't know.

People who support Brexit are 'narcissists' who dislike foreigners, claims controversial study
  • Belief immigrants threaten the UK was related to the tendency to vote Brexit
  • People who just valued their British identity were not more likely to vote Brexit
  • The findings were based on just 161 leave voters and 345 remain voters
  • The researchers caution that as the study was conducted after the Brexit referendum, it may be that the 'yes' vote increased people's xenophobia
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5124321/Fear-immigrants-linked-support-Brexit.html
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It shouldn't need saying but,


There are millions and millions of very nice people who voted Brexit and remain.

There are millions and millions of cnuts who voted remain and Brexit.

This study of just over 500 hundred people tells us very little.
 
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Rightnr said:
It's an easy window into Brexiters' worldview because for us 'remoaners' it is just hard to understand illogical thinking based on delusion.

If you read the comments, you'll clearly see a lot of Brexiters frequent the rag because the dumbest comments always end up as most recommended. It is a handy research tool and a source for much-needed laughter in these times of taking back control with a lying and morally bankrupt government.
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More likely you are looking for bias conformation of what you believe the typical brexiter to be like. Comments sections in all the online papers, including the classier ones, comtain posts from both sides of the fence. Also this is not the only thread to contain links to the gutter press.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Ah I missed that. I guess the most popular 'tabloid' site in the world aka not really news!
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No problem. I'm just very skeptic about anything they claim, them being honest about their success wouldn't fit to their journalistic style.
 
Stanley Road said:
More likely you are looking for bias conformation of what you believe the typical brexiter to be like. Comments sections in all the online papers, including the classier ones, comtain posts from both sides of the fence. Also this is not the only thread to contain links to the gutter press.
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No, the Daily Mail comments section is the home of some of the vilest cnuts on the net. Some of the shite they spout on there would make even 4Chan go 'whoah, that's a bit much!'.
 
Would it be nice to have the EU negotiators at the UK corner instead of clowns like Davies, Boris and co? They certainly know their stuff and would be able to negotiate for the UK effective deals with loads of countries from a position of strength.....oh wait.....they were in the UK's corner prior to Brexit.
 
Hannan on Sky News...says the UK is undemocratic because we're in the EU, and then has it pointed out to him that the UK has an unelected House of Lords.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I have never said they weren't selected - what I said was Cabinet ministers are also selected.
what I asked you was who did the selection which you still have not answered.
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I have replied that Cabinet Ministers are for the most part are the directly elected representatives of the people first, then become members of the Cabinet selected by the PM (there have been occasionally the odd Lord recruited by the PM who is not directly elected).
None of the Commissioners are elected, they are put forward by their respective countries and selected for their Commission briefs by the President of the Commission. In that sense the process is similar to the Cabinet selection process, but as far as being directly elected and accountable to the public, either in their own country or in the EU, that is not the case for Commissioners.

Paul the Wolf said:
How does a national leader run roughshod, how and where and why , ambiguous statements.
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Do you doubt that Mrs Merkel and increasingly Macron are the most influential National leaders in the EU, basically because they wield the 'biggest sticks' whether that be in terms of population, economies, land mass even. Do you doubt that ultimately they get their way, within the EU on all major decisions, certainly Mr Merkel does/did?. Still not sure, try asking the Greeks about that!

Paul the Wolf said:
I believe you still haven't understood how the EU works or moreover trying to pretend to your Brexit pals that this is the way it works with random people making up these terrible laws (none of which by the way any Brexiter can name that is detrimental to their life).
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As far as the EU public is concerned these might as well be random people, they are unelected by and cannot be removed directly by the general populace, if they do make terrible laws!

I think you will find a good many people in the EU, whether brexiteers or not, have found the 'freedom of movement' has been detrimental to their lives, because it restricts individual Governments ability to control such matters and not just in Britain.... which is where I think we came in!

Paul the Wolf said:
Obviously the current ministers are doing a very poor job particularly with regards to Brexit, what can we do to get someone in who knows what he or she is doing, I think the Uk needs some new faces quickly, wouldn't you agree?
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Don't agree, I think they are playing cards close to their chests and the press desperate for something to report guess at what they think is going on.
(As for new faces see (*) below)


Paul the Wolf said:
The risk assessment by the BoE is taking in what they think is the worst scenario.
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Has Mr Carney published his best scenario for Brexit after the voter was known he did conceded that Britain could not only survive brexit, but could prosper post brexit... of course he was only able to utter this when the last Chancellor took his foot of Carney's neck?

The Governor is of course struggling to retain a foothold with the brexiteers, just in case Theresa does manage to pull off a deal without having to spend Billions! You know my views on this, I don't think that is possible, in my view Theresa has to get us out of the EU and it will be a costly business in terms of finance and in terms of political careers and in that sense (*) I do think there will be some new faces around post brexit.

Paul the Wolf said:
Brexiters don't seem to understand that the Remainers are concerned with their future and don't want the UK to be ruined. On the other hand Brexiters main hope seems to be crumbling of the EU and that fascists take over the rest of the world like they have in the UK.
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Oh I think they do, the 'me first' sentiment is loud and clear with a lot of remoaners!

The EU will crumble because its undemocratic and finds it impossible to change/reform itself in all the areas that matter, it might last a bit longer, even without Merkel, if it can screw a decent amount out of Theresa, which it looks like doing!
 
I Believe said:
I have replied that Cabinet Ministers are for the most part are the directly elected representatives of the people first, then become members of the Cabinet selected by the PM (there have been occasionally the odd Lord recruited by the PM who is not directly elected).
None of the Commissioners are elected, they are put forward by their respective countries and selected for their Commission briefs by the President of the Commission. In that sense the process is similar to the Cabinet selection process, but as far as being directly elected and accountable to the public, either in their own country or in the EU, that is not the case for Commissioners.

Do you doubt that Mrs Merkel and increasingly Macron are the most influential National leaders in the EU, basically because they wield the 'biggest sticks' whether that be in terms of population, economies, land mass even. Do you doubt that ultimately they get their way, within the EU on all major decisions, certainly Mr Merkel does/did?. Still not sure, try asking the Greeks about that!

As far as the EU public is concerned these might as well be random people, they are unelected by and cannot be removed directly by the general populace, if they do make terrible laws!

I think you will find a good many people in the EU, whether brexiteers or not, have found the 'freedom of movement' has been detrimental to their lives, because it restricts individual Governments ability to control such matters and not just in Britain.... which is where I think we came in!

Don't agree, I think they are playing cards close to their chests and the press desperate for something to report guess at what they think is going on.
(As for new faces see (*) below)

Has Mr Carney published his best scenario for Brexit after the voter was known he did conceded that Britain could not only survive brexit, but could prosper post brexit... of course he was only able to utter this when the last Chancellor took his foot of Carney's neck?

The Governor is of course struggling to retain a foothold with the brexiteers, just in case Theresa does manage to pull off a deal without having to spend Billions! You know my views on this, I don't think that is possible, in my view Theresa has to get us out of the EU and it will be a costly business in terms of finance and in terms of political careers and in that sense (*) I do think there will be some new faces around post brexit.

Oh I think they do, the 'me first' sentiment is loud and clear with a lot of remoaners!

The EU will crumble because its undemocratic and finds it impossible to change/reform itself in all the areas that matter, it might last a bit longer, even without Merkel, if it can screw a decent amount out of Theresa, which it looks like doing!
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It's pointless repeating the same thing, yes MPs are elected to be MPs of their constituents say 50000 people, that's it, not to be cabinet ministers and certainly not be be given specific jobs which they are evidently not qualified to do. You still have not replied after 3 or 4 attempts as to who puts them forward. Did Merkel put forward Julian King for example because she has more power than anyone according to you, no she didn't.
As I've explained the Commissioners are answerable to the EU parliament which is elected by the public.

Yes Merkel, Macron and May have more power because they are the leaders of the countries which have the largest populations - I said I knew I'd have to keep repeating this.
The freedom of movement has been debunked numerous times already, not the EU's fault May was an awful Home Secretary.

Carney's job is to keep the UK afloat, he's basically a salesman for the UK. Your deal is basically almost done, it's going to be £50/60bn but not to have the trade deal just to start the trade talks that's if they also sort out the Irish border and the Citizens rights, they've got until Monday. If they want the same deal as before we all know the cost and that is not included in the £50/60bn which will be spread over many years.

Funnily enough most people vote selfishly, I can honestly say I never voted for what my next-door neighbour's interest is and I fail to see what benefit voting Brexit will be for anyone in the UK and if Brexiters say they were voting unselfishly that is the biggest joke yet.

At least you confirmed this hope of Brexiters that the EU will crumble, but get extremely upset if someone criticises the Uk, it's sadly pathetic. Just think another 16 months and you'll be on the way to paradise and won't have to worry about the EU (apart from to feed you).
 
Paul the Wolf said:
It's pointless repeating the same thing,
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So why keep doing it?

Paul the Wolf said:
You still have not replied after 3 or 4 attempts as to who puts them forward
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see previous post (perhaps you need to visit specs savers Paul?) "None of the Commissioners are elected, they are put forward by their respective countries and selected for their Commission briefs by the President of the Commission"

Paul the Wolf said:
As I've explained the Commissioners are answerable to the EU parliament which is elected by the public.
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No, you've stated that, but not answered my question of how are they answerable, e.g. can the public via the MEP's vote them out, if so how is this actioned and on what grounds? Also can the public in the absence of direct elections to the Commission, dismiss any Commissioners, individually or collectively, by calling for votes of no confidence to be actioned within the EU Parliament, or when the public discontent or disagreement with their policies reaches a pre-defined or recognised level, or again, can Commissioners only be dismissed by Parliament for acts of fraud or corruption, or similar misuse of public office actions?

I am aware from the Santer Resignations as you say 1999, that 'pressure' was brought on the whole Commission, ultimately via the ECJ to such an extent the whole Commission resigned rather then face a public exposure. However as far as I am aware, even though its almost twenty years ago, nothing has changed significantly in the EU Codes of practice or Governance that would/could specifically prevent another Santer situation arising once again. If you can indicate where there is now preventative measures in place and/or where such gross acts of corruption (and one suspects incompetence) have been prevented in the intervening time period, I would be grateful if you would point them out!

The truth is the EU Commissioners are just not answerable directly to the public, via direct election, just acknowledge that then we can move on.

The original argument on this between us, or so I thought, was over the issue of the democracy or relative democracy between the EU and the UK systems. Would you for example accept that Commissioners are similar to the British Senior Civil Servants, in the functions they undertake and how they are chosen, except they whilst not elected by the public they are possibly better known to the public than their UK counterparts? If you can then we can debate sensibly the relative merits of democracy in the two systems?

Paul the Wolf said:
Yes Merkel, Macron and May have more power because they are the leaders of the countries which have the largest populations - I said I knew I'd have to keep repeating this.
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No need to keep repeating yourself, although I notice you tend to do it on a regular basis, even when the point is no longer an issue, these people carry the big sticks and will wield them as and when appropriate, agreed!

Paul the Wolf said:
The freedom of movement has been debunked numerous times already, not the EU's fault May was an awful Home Secretary.
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Really and you've spent ages and numerous posts telling me its what drives the brexiteers!

This issue, in the UK at least, was a hot topic long before May was Home Secretary, this one is laid firmly at Blair's door, indeed some (but not me) would argue the whole upsurge in UKIP support, the notion of Brexit, et al was caused by Blair's actions on this matter and the Labour Government's subsequent refusal to even discuss the issues raised on control of immigration. If you are looking for a scape-goat for Brexit, you need not look much further. As one reporter put it had Blair shot Ukip's fox, things might have turned out differently.

Personally this has never been an issue for me and is not why I voted to leave. I want the UK away from the equivalent of the runaway train that is the EU, destined for destruction and running on tracks it has laid for itself.
By the way I think the final price for the deal (and the divorce bill together) will be around £80B, if we pay more than that 'we was robbed'... but even so I would take it, just to get the hell out of it!
 
Jippy said:
Either way, 44.5 million uniques a month is pretty fecking staggering.
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They are heavily, heavily, heavily adbertised. Everywhere you go on the internet you see some Daily Mail “article” aka bombastic bullshit advertised on outbrain and similar bullshit amplifiers.

I’m sure there is ads on this site too for it!
 
I Believe said:
So why keep doing it?

see previous post (perhaps you need to visit specs savers Paul?) "None of the Commissioners are elected, they are put forward by their respective countries and selected for their Commission briefs by the President of the Commission"

No, you've stated that, but not answered my question of how are they answerable, e.g. can the public via the MEP's vote them out, if so how is this actioned and on what grounds? Also can the public in the absence of direct elections to the Commission, dismiss any Commissioners, individually or collectively, by calling for votes of no confidence to be actioned within the EU Parliament, or when the public discontent or disagreement with their policies reaches a pre-defined or recognised level, or again, can Commissioners only be dismissed by Parliament for acts of fraud or corruption, or similar misuse of public office actions?

I am aware from the Santer Resignations as you say 1999, that 'pressure' was brought on the whole Commission, ultimately via the ECJ to such an extent the whole Commission resigned rather then face a public exposure. However as far as I am aware, even though its almost twenty years ago, nothing has changed significantly in the EU Codes of practice or Governance that would/could specifically prevent another Santer situation arising once again. If you can indicate where there is now preventative measures in place and/or where such gross acts of corruption (and one suspects incompetence) have been prevented in the intervening time period, I would be grateful if you would point them out!

The truth is the EU Commissioners are just not answerable directly to the public, via direct election, just acknowledge that then we can move on.

The original argument on this between us, or so I thought, was over the issue of the democracy or relative democracy between the EU and the UK systems. Would you for example accept that Commissioners are similar to the British Senior Civil Servants, in the functions they undertake and how they are chosen, except they whilst not elected by the public they are possibly better known to the public than their UK counterparts? If you can then we can debate sensibly the relative merits of democracy in the two systems?

No need to keep repeating yourself, although I notice you tend to do it on a regular basis, even when the point is no longer an issue, these people carry the big sticks and will wield them as and when appropriate, agreed!

Really and you've spent ages and numerous posts telling me its what drives the brexiteers!

This issue, in the UK at least, was a hot topic long before May was Home Secretary, this one is laid firmly at Blair's door, indeed some (but not me) would argue the whole upsurge in UKIP support, the notion of Brexit, et al was caused by Blair's actions on this matter and the Labour Government's subsequent refusal to even discuss the issues raised on control of immigration. If you are looking for a scape-goat for Brexit, you need not look much further. As one reporter put it had Blair shot Ukip's fox, things might have turned out differently.

Personally this has never been an issue for me and is not why I voted to leave. I want the UK away from the equivalent of the runaway train that is the EU, destined for destruction and running on tracks it has laid for itself.
By the way I think the final price for the deal (and the divorce bill together) will be around £80B, if we pay more than that 'we was robbed'... but even so I would take it, just to get the hell out of it!
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It's pointless repeating it because you won't accept you're wrong, if I said something was black you would say it was white.
So the person who makes cheap childish remarks.. oh dearie me...
And you still haven't answered the question, five times and counting.. who .. not which country

If you don't know how the system works you'd better look it up or refer to mine or other people's posts on the subject.
You still haven't said how Merkel and Macron wave there big sticks and yet May who has the equivalent power of Macron does not.

Why do keep referring to 1999 - why not refer to Davis yesterday in Parliament trying to conceal facts from everyone, democracy at its finest, oh no he wasn't there, la la la (not listening are you?)

UKIP support is very easy to see why and no I haven't said Freedom of Movement drives Brexiteers, what I have been saying is xenophobia and racism drive Brexiters and for the support of UKIP.

You cannot see that all this argument and discussion debunks all the other pretences of why Brexiters want to leave the EU - it's amusing to keep going round and round - the economic arguments that to anyone with basic economic sense can see will be disastrous for the UK, then the laws that nobody can name, then the EU undemocracy from a country who is more undemocratic than the EU, they are all proved wrong and then we come back to the real reason and strangely not one Brexiter dislikes foreigners. Then we go around again.

This particular discussion started when you said the Commissioners are the masters of the EU which has been proved wrong... next..
 
Paul the Wolf said:
It's pointless repeating it because you won't accept you're wrong,
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Could say the same for you!

Paul the Wolf said:
And you still haven't answered the question, five times and counting.. who .. not which country
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This has been answered/implied a number of times previously, this is why you came up with the preposterous accusation I had said Merkel/Macron had appointed more than one Commissioner, what is the matter with you? This is a nonsense matter, who else from each Country would nominate their Commissioner, except the Prime Minister/Head of Government, how else would some of these dubious characters get to become Commissioners? Certainly wouldn't be elected by the public would they?

Paul the Wolf said:
If you don't know how the system works you'd better look it up or refer to mine or other people's posts on the subject
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I've looked in vain Paul, please point me to where exactly you have explained how the Commissioners are directly accountable/answerable to the public, instead of keeping just stating they are, via the MEP's, specifics please, second or is it third time of asking :-

E.G.
Can the EU public directly or via the MEP's vote them out, if so how is this actioned and on what grounds?
Can the EU public in the absence of direct elections to the Commission, dismiss any Commissioners, individually or collectively, by calling for votes of no confidence in the Commission to be actioned within the EU Parliament?
When public discontent or disagreement with the Commission policies reaches a pre-defined or recognised level, what action against the Commissioners can be taken, by the public?
Or again, can Commissioners only be dismissed by Parliament for acts of fraud or corruption, or similar misuse of public office, actions?

Paul the Wolf said:
You still haven't said how Merkel and Macron wave there big sticks and yet May who has the equivalent power of Macron does not
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They use it sparingly its true, but because of the size of their respective sticks are able to apply pressure, diplomatic, economic, personal, to achieve their aims. Like all leaders they 'do deals' some of them obvious some maybe not so obvious, they provide weight/backing to others arguments, sometimes collective opposition, but they will co-operate with each other, join forces if you will, to push certain matters, the Germanic/Franco axis has always been at the heart of the EU.
Previous UK PM's have been seen to have influence, in the early days of the newly emerging EU, but May of course because of the impending brexit now has limited 'stick wielding' powers, certainly as far (once we are out) as the rush to oblivion the EU is planning, or at least Juncker is advocating, goes. Also the UK's power/influence overall has been waning, we are not in the euro zone, our opt outs and rebates are not popular with other members and taken altogether represent good reasons why we should no longer be a member of the EU, but we rather would like to continue trade with it... if possible, at least until it hits the buffers.

Paul the Wolf said:
Why do keep referring to 1999
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Because after the Santer Resignation debacle this was the perfect opportunity for the EU to reset itself, to prevent a repeat situation ever occurring and to address other democratic issues, it didn't really have to be a root and branch change, but it was a time and opportunity for change, that wasn't taken. The very fact that the EU did not take this opportunity, in the eyes of many (including my own) and of others who like me at the time worked for the EU, it was a grave error, which unfortunately after the enlargement was an opportunity not available again, simply because of the size, it was an example of where the advantages of scale, didn't work! One such example was in terms of independent financial audits, there was some change, the EU Court of Auditors etc., but again there was and as far as I am aware still is, no independent outside audit perspective.

Myself and also I suspect many others, have since come to the conclusion that the EU as it stands is incapable of initiating change from within, it is just possible, ironically, that brexit might just cause another Santer moment a chance for redemption, with the UK being the sacrificial offering or catalyst, (depends on how you view things) that precipitates that moment.., but don't hold your breath!


Paul the Wolf said:
This particular discussion started when you said the Commissioners are the masters of the EU which has been proved wrong... next.
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No, I agreed with your comments when you asked about this matter and nothing has been proved wrong, Commissioners are unelected and they make the laws.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
UKIP support is very easy to see why and no I haven't said Freedom of Movement drives Brexiteers, what I have been saying is xenophobia and racism drive Brexiters and for the support of UKIP.
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UKIP would not be a force if British working class families thought they had a reasonable chance of aspiration in society.

Its trendy to call it racism but it is more about fairness in society for those whose families have paid their taxes and want decent jobs and a chance to be a homeowner.
 
The Outsider said:
UKIP would not be a force if British working class families thought they had a reasonable chance of aspiration in society.

Its trendy to call it racism but it is more about fairness in society for those whose families have paid their taxes and want decent jobs and a chance to be a homeowner.
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I'm aware of the point that people who want a better life would vote for something that would help them. UKIP were and never will be the solution. They could have called themselves We Hate Foreigners Party but even now that wouldn't quite be acceptable.

If all goes according to Brexit plan the UK will be outside the EU in 16 months time and thus so-called independent - thence the need for UKIP and Farage as a political person will be obsolete.
You see if you were gullible enough to believe that independence of the UK from the EU was all they wanted , why does Farage appear in front of a poster of non-European people or why does he creep around other RW figures in Europe and the USA. Very simple he is a racist and xenophobe. He couldn't care less if the Uk was part of the EU or not after all he's stolen a living as an MEP for a very long time from the very organisation he claims to despise. He'll even get a nice pension from them if the UK cough up the money.

When I was young it was the Irish, Indian sub-continent, African and Caribbean who suffered the abuse but in those days it was fairly hidden because you would only see people like skinheads openly showing their hatred for foreigners. Since Brexit it is now much more acceptable for ordinary people to openly express their xenopobia.

It's always been there and UKIP appeal to this inherent suspicion of foreigners in the British mentality.

Now when the Uk leave the EU in which way will those people be better off, as most people who know what they're talking about predict the Uk will suffer tremendously economically and the first to suffer will be the ones who have the least now.
 
The Outsider said:
UKIP would not be a force if British working class families thought they had a reasonable chance of aspiration in society.

Its trendy to call it racism but it is more about fairness in society for those whose families have paid their taxes and want decent jobs and a chance to be a homeowner.
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All of this has nothing to with UKIP.
 
The Outsider said:
UKIP would not be a force if British working class families thought they had a reasonable chance of aspiration in society.

Its trendy to call it racism but it is more about fairness in society for those whose families have paid their taxes and want decent jobs and a chance to be a homeowner.
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That isn't what UKIP was selling.
 
I Believe said:
Could say the same for you!

This has been answered/implied a number of times previously, this is why you came up with the preposterous accusation I had said Merkel/Macron had appointed more than one Commissioner, what is the matter with you? This is a nonsense matter, who else from each Country would nominate their Commissioner, except the Prime Minister/Head of Government, how else would some of these dubious characters get to become Commissioners? Certainly wouldn't be elected by the public would they?

I've looked in vain Paul, please point me to where exactly you have explained how the Commissioners are directly accountable/answerable to the public, instead of keeping just stating they are, via the MEP's, specifics please, second or is it third time of asking :-

E.G.
Can the EU public directly or via the MEP's vote them out, if so how is this actioned and on what grounds?
Can the EU public in the absence of direct elections to the Commission, dismiss any Commissioners, individually or collectively, by calling for votes of no confidence in the Commission to be actioned within the EU Parliament?
When public discontent or disagreement with the Commission policies reaches a pre-defined or recognised level, what action against the Commissioners can be taken, by the public?
Or again, can Commissioners only be dismissed by Parliament for acts of fraud or corruption, or similar misuse of public office, actions?

They use it sparingly its true, but because of the size of their respective sticks are able to apply pressure, diplomatic, economic, personal, to achieve their aims. Like all leaders they 'do deals' some of them obvious some maybe not so obvious, they provide weight/backing to others arguments, sometimes collective opposition, but they will co-operate with each other, join forces if you will, to push certain matters, the Germanic/Franco axis has always been at the heart of the EU.
Previous UK PM's have been seen to have influence, in the early days of the newly emerging EU, but May of course because of the impending brexit now has limited 'stick wielding' powers, certainly as far (once we are out) as the rush to oblivion the EU is planning, or at least Juncker is advocating, goes. Also the UK's power/influence overall has been waning, we are not in the euro zone, our opt outs and rebates are not popular with other members and taken altogether represent good reasons why we should no longer be a member of the EU, but we rather would like to continue trade with it... if possible, at least until it hits the buffers.

Because after the Santer Resignation debacle this was the perfect opportunity for the EU to reset itself, to prevent a repeat situation ever occurring and to address other democratic issues, it didn't really have to be a root and branch change, but it was a time and opportunity for change, that wasn't taken. The very fact that the EU did not take this opportunity, in the eyes of many (including my own) and of others who like me at the time worked for the EU, it was a grave error, which unfortunately after the enlargement was an opportunity not available again, simply because of the size, it was an example of where the advantages of scale, didn't work! One such example was in terms of independent financial audits, there was some change, the EU Court of Auditors etc., but again there was and as far as I am aware still is, no independent outside audit perspective.

Myself and also I suspect many others, have since come to the conclusion that the EU as it stands is incapable of initiating change from within, it is just possible, ironically, that brexit might just cause another Santer moment a chance for redemption, with the UK being the sacrificial offering or catalyst, (depends on how you view things) that precipitates that moment.., but don't hold your breath!

No, I agreed with your comments when you asked about this matter and nothing has been proved wrong, Commissioners are unelected and they make the laws.
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Finally we're making some progress, very slow but you move one step forward and two steps back. It must have been painful for you to concede that the same person who nominates the EU Commissioner also appoints the Cabinet but then you spoil it by saying dubious characters. Did the Uk Head of State nominate a dubious character or is it only the 27 other Heads of States who nominated a dubious character, looks like your inherent suspicion of foreigners is peeking through.

I never said Macron or Merkel nominated more than one - you keep saying the Commissioners are the masters of the EU and on the other hand say Merkel and Macron are waving their big stick, which one is it? - is it the Commissioners or Merkel/Macron controlling the EU , by your own admission it can't be both.

Now the accountability, in my first post on the subject and in the item quoted from the EU it explains how this works, you should try harder. Hint - 2/3rds majority in EU parliament vote of no confidence.

Now I have a problem - I live in Rushcliffe and my MP is Kenneth Clarke, I am a Tory and voted for him and I am pro-Remain like him.
Unfortunately Theresa May has appointed a half-wit as Brexit secretary. The said half-wit is not my MP and I can't vote him out and in any case there is no election scheduled till 2022 - I've written to Theresa May but a robot replied and said they couldn't do anything to assist me. I want the half-wit out of office, what do I do?

Sorry who made the laws again?
 
The Outsider said:
UKIP would not be a force if British working class families thought they had a reasonable chance of aspiration in society.

Its trendy to call it racism but it is more about fairness in society for those whose families have paid their taxes and want decent jobs and a chance to be a homeowner.
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I'm not quite sure if you're suggesting migration creates this unfairness?
Or you're saying its misdirected anger?
 
The Outsider said:
UKIP would not be a force if British working class families thought they had a reasonable chance of aspiration in society.

Its trendy to call it racism but it is more about fairness in society for those whose families have paid their taxes and want decent jobs and a chance to be a homeowner.
Click to expand...

So, horrendously expensive education and a rampant housing market is the EU‘s fault? Sorry, but that’s the UK‘s responsibility.
 
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