Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
711 said:
For which both major parties campaigned with Brexit in their manifestos, so you should be happy it's all working as planned.

Personally I wish people had voted Liberal or SNP, but they didn't, unfortunately, they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit parties.
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Why should I be happy?

If you live in certain constituencies in the UK, you effectively don't live in a democracy. Your vote, unless it goes to increasing the dominant party's majority, means feck all. I hate the FPTP system and its complete lack of accountability and representation. I'd completely overhaul our system if it was up to me.

This is such a strange argument honestly.
 
africanspur said:
Why should I be happy?

If you live in certain constituencies in the UK, you effectively don't live in a democracy. Your vote, unless it goes to increasing the dominant party's majority, means feck all. I hate the FPTP system and its complete lack of accountability and representation. I'd completely overhaul our system if it was up to me.

This is such a strange argument honestly.
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I was replying to Wibble's point about parliamentary democracy. If you didn't vote because you don't believe in it, or the particular form of it we have, then fair enough, my criticsm doesn't apply to you.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't get your point then. The election that mattered was the previous one, the one that put Cameron and his referendum promise in 10 Downing street.
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I think you do. The new parliament could have decided not to go ahead with Brexit and still could if it decided to. And the point you claim not to get is that if there were more Liberal MPs that is what they would do. Even half a dozen might have done it. What a time for the Libs to be so useless, oh well.
 
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vidic blood & sand said:
Tell me why companies will have a need to leave the UK post brexit?
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Lots of the multi-nationals
Ireland is already having discussions with some and predicting quite a few to establish their bases here in Ireland, EU friendly

Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. I’m not sure what’s worse, trump electorate or brexit voters with their heads in the sand. Clearly they both like believing in liars
 
golden_blunder said:
Lots of the multi-nationals
Ireland is already having discussions with some and predicting quite a few to establish their bases here in Ireland, EU friendly

Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. I’m not sure what’s worse, trump electorate or brexit voters with their heads in the sand. Clearly they both like believing in liars
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Since 2016 the MEDEF, the largest employer union in france, is hunting UK based companies, the same is true in Germany and Ireland. In France it was advised to do it discreetly. And I doubt that they will stop even if there is a deal.
 
JPRouve said:
Since 2016 the MEDEF, the largest employer union in france, is hunting UK based companies, the same is true in Germany and Ireland. In France it was advised to do it discreetly. And I doubt that they will stop even if there is a deal.
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Quite a few companies have already moved or announced plans to move to Dublin, Barclays for example.

I imagine Paris, Amsterdam, and Frankfurt will lap up a lot of the financials. Dublin is already maxed out in terms of demand and a lack of available properties/infrastructure so I can't see us reaping too many of the awards.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Quite a few companies have already moved or announced plans to move to Dublin, Barclays for example.

I imagine Paris, Amsterdam, and Frankfurt will lap up a lot of the financials. Dublin is already maxed out in terms of demand and a lack of available properties/infrastructure so I can't see us reaping too many of the awards.
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They’re building left right and centre down Dublin’s quays again. Don’t know if they’re for existing companies or incoming businesses. Either way there is still lots of old places that could be changed to hip new places so I can’t see lack of space being a huge issue
 
golden_blunder said:
They’re building left right and centre down Dublin’s quays again. Don’t know if they’re for existing companies or incoming businesses. Either way there is still lots of old places that could be changed to hip new places so I can’t see lack of space being a huge issue
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Google just snapped up the largest development that was available and I believe all of Capital Dock has already been taken too and that's not even fully built yet. Grant Thornton have bought the new building right beside their current one to switch. Most other buildings would be more-so for small to medium businesses than large ones. We don't really have the space or office size to take in the sort of mammoth firms that could be exiting London. More than likely we'll continue to get the likes of Barclays sending 100 or so jobs our way so they can shift their European headquarters.

Unfortunately years of neglect in the transport infrastructure here (which is abysmal for a capital city of a western country), the mass housing shortage, and already over-availability of financial/tech jobs vs workers means we're a difficult sell for these companies vs a Frankfurt or Paris. I suspect we'll continue our rise to being the Silicon Valley of Europe but finance wise I doubt we'll get much from the UK.
 
Stanley Road said:
And that'll always be the remainers argument. Austerity obviously more important than Brexit, makes sense.
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711 said:
Then those anyones have little right to complain about Brexit, they voted for it.
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Yes, to a huge number of UK voters, direct domestic policies that effect their everyday lives are indeed more important than Brexit. Most of them don't realize the shockingly dramatic effect Brexit could have on their lives and economic prospects. The idea that this means they support leaving is just nonsense.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Google just snapped up the largest development that was available and I believe all of Capital Dock has already been taken too and that's not even fully built yet. Grant Thornton have bought the new building right beside their current one to switch. Most other buildings would be more-so for small to medium businesses than large ones. We don't really have the space or office size to take in the sort of mammoth firms that could be exiting London. More than likely we'll continue to get the likes of Barclays sending 100 or so jobs our way so they can shift their European headquarters.

Unfortunately years of neglect in the transport infrastructure here (which is abysmal for a capital city of a western country), the mass housing shortage, and already over-availability of financial/tech jobs vs workers means we're a difficult sell for these companies vs a Frankfurt or Paris. I suspect we'll continue our rise to being the Silicon Valley of Europe but finance wise I doubt we'll get much from the UK.
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I think I need to move my arse to Ireland hearing about this over-availability in tech jobs vs workers. The other option is Berlin where I already have friends. Buttfeck learning German
 
MadMike said:
I think I need to move my arse to Ireland hearing about this over-availability in tech jobs vs workers. The other option is Berlin where I already have friends. Buttfeck learning German
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it's not all rosey. As good as IT options and wages are in Dublin it's equally very expensive to live here and very difficult to get accommodation right now. It's a tough place for expats to come, not that that stops them.
 
MadMike said:
I think I need to move my arse to Ireland hearing about this over-availability in tech jobs vs workers. The other option is Berlin where I already have friends. Buttfeck learning German
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Easy enough to get by without speaking German in Berlin. One of the most cosmopolitan cities I’ve been to. Every second conversation you overhear is in English.
 
Massive Spanner said:
it's not all rosey. As good as IT options and wages are in Dublin it's equally very expensive to live here and very difficult to get accommodation right now. It's a tough place for expats to come, not that that stops them.
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Yeah I heard about that. I have an ex-colleague who returned home to Dublin from London. He says basically what you're saying, that costs have been rising to the point where it's more expensive than London now in many things including housing. While the "package" the city offers outside of work opportunities is far inferior in terms of services, infrastructure and general shit to do. Last time I visited was 5 years ago and didn't fall in love with the place.

I visit Berlin every year for the last 10 years, due to having childhood friends there. And while the City is not on par yet with places like Munich and Hamburg it's come on leaps and bounds in that time. So many construction projects there. And they are also screaming for more tech people there, with salaries for the sector well above the average. But if you want to integrate and not be the outsider immigrant, you gotta learn German and I don't know if I have the appetite for that. Otherwise I would have probably made the leap couple of years back.
 
MadMike said:
Yeah I heard about that. I have an ex-colleague who returned home to Dublin from London. He says basically what you're saying, that costs have been rising to the point where it's more expensive than London now in many things including housing. While the "package" the city offers outside of work opportunities is far inferior in terms of services, infrastructure and general shit to do. Last time I visited was 5 years ago and didn't fall in love with the place.

I visit Berlin every year for the last 10 years, due to having childhood friends there. And while the City is not on par yet with places like Munich and Hamburg it's come on leaps and bounds in that time. So many construction projects there. And they are also screaming for more tech people there, with salaries for the sector well above the average. But if you want to integrate and not be the outsider immigrant, you gotta learn German and I don't know if I have the appetite for that. Otherwise I would have probably made the leap couple of years back.
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He's right about the services and infrastructure but when it comes to "general shit to do" Dublin punches well above it's weight, if only because the countryside is so much closer/easier to get to than when you live in London. I've lived in both cities for a very long time and my general quality of life in Dublin is miles better than London because of the "general shit to do" factor. Although I guess that would differ if you're not a fan of the great outdoors.
 
Yeah if you have a car in Dublin then there are shitloads of things well within an hour's reach of your doorstep to do. Not to mention the city itself has loads of nice pubs, restaurants, activities etc and generally a pretty great atmosphere all year round. It will never compete with a London in size or vastness of places to visit within the city itself but as small cities go it's pretty damn good. Much more enjoyable city to be in than most of the similar sized mainland European ones I've visited imo (Brussels, Vienna, Lisbon, Copenhagen, Manchester). I'd say even the likes of Prague and Budapest despite how beautiful they are won't entertain you as long as old-grey Dublin will.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's right about the services and infrastructure but when it comes to "general shit to do" Dublin punches well above it's weight, if only because the countryside is so much closer/easier to get to than when you live in London. I've lived in both cities for a very long time and my general quality of life in Dublin is miles better than London because of the "general shit to do" factor. Although I guess that would differ if you're not a fan of the great outdoors.
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If by outdoors you mean going to the mountains or sea and then yes London is lacking any of that in near proximity. Just getting out of London (as in the M25 area) can take over and hour which makes it a drag as well. You end up going on pre-planned City/Weekend breaks rather than doing nature stuff on impulse. Therefore it's more rare

I was more referring to stuff to do within the city. The list of places, exhibitions, parks, museums, activities etc. within the city is unending. So long as you are motivate to move your arse, you'll never run out of things to do. I didn't get that feel from Dublin. But then again metropolitan London is 10 times bigger than Dublin so that's to be expected.
 
MadMike said:
If by outdoors you mean going to the mountains or sea and then yes London is lacking any of that in near proximity. Just getting out of London (as in the M25 area) can take over and hour which makes it a drag as well. You end up going on pre-planned City/Weekend breaks rather than doing nature stuff on impulse. Therefore it's more rare

I was more referring to stuff to do within the city. The list of places, exhibitions, parks, museums, activities etc. within the city is unending. So long as you are motivate to move your arse, you'll never run out of things to do. I didn't get that feel from Dublin. But then again metropolitan London is 10 times bigger than Dublin so that's to be expected.
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Yeah that’s very true. Although my own experience of London was that schlepping around the city could get quite draining so we tended to spend most of our lives in our own postcode. Probably an age thing too. Back when I used to spend a lot of times in bars/clubs the options in Dublin seemed absolutely pathetic compared to London but that doesn’t bother me any more.

If I didn’t have family in Dublin I’d choose Berlin ahead of either of the Irish/English capitals fwiw.
 
711 said:
For which both major parties campaigned with Brexit in their manifestos, so you should be happy it's all working as planned.

Personally I wish people had voted Liberal or SNP, but they didn't, unfortunately, they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit parties.
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My only argument here is that referendums, other than for matters relating to constitutional change, should be utterly avoided under a Westminster form of democracy.
 
Sassy Colin said:
It was naive, he never imagined the British public to be quite so fecking idiotically stupid/a bunch of racist cnuts.
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That's not the point of the question. People that opposed to Brexit had an option that didn't include a referendum and he wasn't naive, he was being an opportunistic cnut.
 
Sassy Colin said:
It was naive, he never imagined the British public to be quite so fecking idiotically stupid/a bunch of racist cnuts.
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I doubt he foresaw the migrant crisis and the rise of fake news which the Leave camp exploited to push those on the fence towards their side.
 
Cameron pinned his GE election with a referendum on Brexit. He came up with a moronic in or out question when he could have made it more detailed splitting the brexit vote in the process and he refused to give a vote to 16 year olds despite knowing that they would have voted to remain. He and those who voted for him did more for brexit then Farage did
 
Wibble said:
My only argument here is that referendums, other than for matters relating to constitutional change, should be utterly avoided under a Westminster form of democracy.
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I see. I'm not sure myself, I have nearly started a thread before asking if anyone lived in a country or state where referendums were frequent and what they thought about it. I wasn't thinking of Brexit though, it was well before that.
 
Sassy Colin said:
It was naive, he never imagined the British public to be quite so fecking idiotically stupid/a bunch of racist cnuts.
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Think that analysis oversimplifies things. Definitely a huge group in 'Middle England' and beyond who followed the jingoistic/bigoted Boris Johnson/Nigel Farage reasons for leaving, but a lot of people voted for it simply because it guaranteed change. That's the real key behind why people you wouldn't normally expect to back right-wing political movements went along with Brexit.

Take where I'm from (and still live), in County Durham which, aside from the university, has been declining for the last 50 years or so. We lost thousands of jobs from the 60s to the 90s as mining and industry was wound-down, with no investment coming in to replace the jobs and the wider communities those jobs underpinned. Up until 1997 people thought 'things will change when the Tories are out'. Then we had 13 years of Labour, with Blair himself having his seat here, and nothing really changed. Stuff like SureStart and investment in the NHS took some of the sting out of it but really we needed an investment and infrastructure strategy and one wasn't forthcoming. God knows the New Labour era until the crash was like the land of milk and honey compared to 2008 - 2018, but you can see why people who aren't necessarily politically engaged and who live in areas where things don't get substantially better regardless of who is in power are easily convinced that their problems lie elsewhere, or might be tempted to return a result that would be a slap in the face to politics in general. Not that I agree, for what it's worth I voted Remain.

Remainer politicians of all stripes' message in my area, and post-industrial areas in general, should have been to point out that whilst the UK as a whole gives less money to the EU than it gets out, the EU pumps huge amounts of funding into the poorer parts of the UK that they wouldn't otherwise get. That argument was never made as it would highlight the failure of both parties to address regional inequality. Arguments about the larger economic benefits of EU trade, or the benefits of EU migration were never going to work in areas which hadn't tangibly benefited from those things.
 
JPRouve said:
You can develop a feel for it if you look at the referendums in Switzerland, the subjects are generally simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_federal_referendums
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Thanks, I was kind of aware of Switzerland. Still can't make my mind up though. Referendums apart, I do seem to hear a lot of anti-democratic opinions nowadays, 'people are too stupid, uneducated, old, whatever'. Quite worrying really, I can't think of any alternative that wouldn't be a step backwards.
 
711 said:
Thanks, I was kind of aware of Switzerland. Still can't make my mind up though. Referendums apart, I do seem to hear a lot of anti-democratic opinions nowadays, 'people are too stupid, uneducated, old, whatever'. Quite worrying really, I can't think of any alternative that wouldn't be a step backwards.
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Would be great if we could making voting easier e.g. on a weekend or a national holiday. Even make it online as well as a few countries have done.
 
711 said:
I see. I'm not sure myself, I have nearly started a thread before asking if anyone lived in a country or state where referendums were frequent and what they thought about it. I wasn't thinking of Brexit though, it was well before that.
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JPRouve said:
You can develop a feel for it if you look at the referendums in Switzerland, the subjects are generally simple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_federal_referendums
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No idea how it works in Switzerland and I think I’ve said this before but, for me, it’s the way that referenda can be achieved via a tiny minority is the problen. I think there should some sort of rule that a two thirds majority is the minimum required. Without that, nothing changes.

I’d also be easily convinced that some sort of minimum turnout is also required, or the whole thing is null and void.

It’s madness that as big an issue as Brexit can be achieved with a 1.9% margin and 28% of the population not even voting.
 
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