Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[JPRouve]

I don't know why I bother sometimes.

You two are like an old couple. It's endearing.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I don't know why I bother sometimes.

But all the benefits of Remain have been listed thousands of times, no-one listens and they won't listen again, they'll still listen to Farage, the campaigns will be exactly the same.

 

[Smores]

The sales pitch for Leave was easy, just lie about everything without backing it up. After all the voters didn't care or check whether it was true or not. They heard what they wanted. Moreover, the Leave campaign knew this. Just get the gullibles to do their work for them.

Well on the face it all those things are true the devil is in the detail though.

There aren't many benefits of the EU that theoretically couldn't be replicated outside it through arrangements. The positive benefits of maintaining the status quo without using negatives is a hard sell.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

I see that she's using that same argument that someone used with me here, "The laws will just all be the same".

 

[JPRouve]

Well on the face it all those things are true the devil is in the detail though.

There aren't many benefits of the EU that theoretically couldn't be replicated outside it through arrangements. The positive benefits of maintaining the status quo without using negatives is a hard sell.

The EU is the arrangements, that's the entire issue with this debate. You have people benefiting from hundreds of arrangements built during the last 50 years and asking why they can't have the same arrangements but outside the arrangements. It's incredibly stupid.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well on the face it all those things are true the devil is in the detail though.

There aren't many benefits of the EU that theoretically couldn't be replicated outside it through arrangements. The positive benefits of maintaining the status quo without using negatives is a hard sell.

Yes agreed.
Education about the how the EU works and how it benefits people may have been a good subject to teach in the UK. But not in the government's interest to do such things.

 

[Sweet Square]

Fair comment. Remainers need to spend more time explaining how countries in the EU will benefit from membership over the next 20 to 40 years and why the UK should be one of them. Leavers say negative things about the EU of course, but they also seem better at putting a positive spin on leaving, 'control', saving contributions, new trade deals and so on.

Yep I think this is the best way although it's such a difficult argument considering it's a far easier sell to a smaller country like my country(Ireland), to be a part of a wider european project etc then Britan who have a history of being a world power. It's in some way a argument of defeat, that in todays global capitalistic world a country can't ''stand on it's own''(Which is true), it has to be one of many. Which I think the voting shows is a very hard argument for older voters to take compared to younger voters who already see themselves as part of this global world.

As for the positive spin, a big problem(of their own making)is that the most pro eu politicians are the same ones who have for the past 20 odd years being the one who have lied and destroyed the lives of people of all over this country. Even if they put a great spin on the EU why should anyone believe what Tony Blair & David Cameron say ? There's no Obama like figure who is loved and respected but also quite conservative.

And finally the EU it self is a problem for the remain campaign. The EU has massive faults(In my view those fault being essential to how it functions), it's struggling dealing with new far right governments and acting out in anti - democratic ways, it's treatment of people from the global south etc. Again a far easier argument to make if your new to joining rather than having decided to leave after spending decades in it.

So it's one hell of a tough sell(And we didn't talk about the amount of ammo Leave will have.)

Surely the reasons as to why it would be awful and detrimental pretty much serve as the compelling reasons to stay. Nothing negative about that, just the plain facts.

It should be but it doesn't work as a way to win votes. I think there's two arguments

The firstly one being a great example the economist Mark Byith uses, that during the referendum a remain politician went to Sunderland to give a talk about the dangers of leaving and was talking about the potential loss of GDP to the country and a audience member interrupted the politician and said - ''No your GDP''. The UK is in such a shit state that for large parts of the country graphs on a piece of A4 paper showing the potential GDP losses are just that, there's no connection between the economy being destroyed and these people lives getting worse because how can it get any worse. And I say this as someone who completely fecking broke, I'm worried about the NL border but if the UK economy goes to compete shite it really makes no difference to me, so I get the appeal.

The second more simply argument being this is Britain, the last time there was huge national crisis effecting the core functions of the country was during the second war. The idea of things going to complete shit is very hard to image let alone take seriously.

On the other hand leave won last time and they still can't tell anyone what the benefits are.

''Difference'' being we haven't left yet. Yes of course those benefit leave said are bollocks but until it's final happened, it won't resonate with most leaver voters.

 

[Smores]

The EU is the arrangements, that's the entire issue with this debate. You have people benefiting from hundreds of arrangements built during the last 50 years and asking why they can't have the same arrangements but outside the arrangements. It's incredibly stupid.

Exactly and some of those arrangements we'd be better out of the EU, some we could replicate and some not. Now try simplifying that into a net benefit of the EU, you can't because its too complicated and you can't predict which arrangements are which of the above either.

In comparison getting sovereignty back and getting control of immigration is a simple benefit.

I'm not sure it was my original point but i don't think there was a positive side to sell. Once this went to a public vote with an open ended mandate we were doomed to leave.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

''Difference'' being we haven't left yet. Yes of course those benefit leave said are bollocks but until it's final happened, it won't resonate with most leaver voters.

Yes agreed. If the UK held a referendum a year after the UK leaves completely , Remain would probably walk it. Seems the UK has to feel the pain first.

 

[Sweet Square]

Yes agreed. If the UK held a referendum a year after the UK leaves completely , Remain would probably walk it. Seems the UK has to feel the pain first.

The same can be said about the NL border. The border issue will only becomes a issue to people in England & Wales when the violence appears again or the I.R.A start blowing up building in England again. Until then it's ''scare mongering''

 

[711]

The same can be said about the NL border. The border issue will only becomes a issue to people in England & Wales when the violence appears again or the I.R.A start blowing up building in England again. Until then it's ''scare mongering''

Or the border's in the Irish sea and the Loyalists start up. I've had the impression they're potentially worse than the IRA, but I'm not Irish, I may have fallen for British government spin over the years.

 

[JPRouve]

Exactly and some of those arrangements we'd be better out of the EU, some we could replicate and some not. Now try simplifying that into a net benefit of the EU, you can't because its too complicated and you can't predict which arrangements are which of the above either.

In comparison getting sovereignty back and getting control of immigration is a simple benefit.

I'm not sure it was my original point but i don't think there was a positive side to sell. Once this went to a public vote with an open ended mandate we were doomed to leave.

I agree, you can't simplify it and at the same time it should be easy to see that you can't simplify it. For example being a full member of the EU means that your national court has the power to impose common rules(the arrangement) to anyone that is interacting with a british citizen/company wherever the other side is from, the british court is also free to interpret common rules too, and the important part is that every members recognize those principles. This is something that most people won't care about, it doesn't concern them, they don't have litigations and they most likely never left their country but for millions of people and companies this is a daily issue, that is made easy because there is a single multinational agreement.

You can't sell these things to the public, it's not catchy, not sexy. You end up with a debate that is by nature unbalanced because the lies/ truth distortions will be more appealing almost 100% of the time.

 

[711]

BBC reporting that the cabinet has not been shown a draft deal today, but members must remain available for 36 hours, in case an emergency cabinet meeting is needed.

 

[Honest John]

The only was out of this is for a GE to be called and for all remainers in the UK to vote LibDem.

They, at least, are the only UK party with their colours nailed firmly to the mast on the EU.

If there was a chance of them getting in I'd vote for them on that issue alone.

 

[711]

The only was out of this is for a GE to be called and for all remainers in the UK to vote LibDem.

They, at least, are the only UK party with their colours nailed firmly to the mast on the EU.

If there was a chance of them getting in I'd vote for them on that issue alone.

I voted Liberal last time on that basis. I don't know how the Caf's Labour supporters feel about Corbyn's ambition of an early general election. They voted for Brexit last time, would they do so again?

 

[Sweet Square]

Or the border's in the Irish sea and the Loyalists start up. I've had the impression they're potentially worse than the IRA, but I'm not Irish, I may have fallen for British government spin over the years.

Oh yeah there's that as well and from what I know the loyalists are god awful(I'm a bit of a Irish nationalist so I'm more than bias about who I think are worse). Although I do think even if there's a return to something like the troubles it will take the deaths in England to really move people into possibly having another referendum. Until then the violence will just be seen as something that happens far away.

 

[2cents]

Refreshing honesty here:

 

[Big-Red]

feck. Me.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Refreshing honesty here:

So the “lead economist of the Leave campaign” leaves it until this late in the day to finally be honest about the implications of giving the electorate the Brexit they voted for. The UK public have been treated with contempt from day one. This prick earns no kudos from me for finally putting his cards on the table.

 

[sullydnl]

Refreshing honesty here:

Better to be a cnut than a fake cnut I guess?

 

[Kentonio]

What a cnut.

 

[2cents]

This prick earns no kudos from me for finally putting his cards on the table.

Better to be a cnut than a fake cnut I guess?

I just hope our government fully understands the reality of what we're dealing with over there and are planning accordingly. If stuff like this helps with that then I'm grateful for it.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I mean he's just saying what's been obvious since day one, Brexiteer's don't give a toss about NI and the border. At the time of the referendum it wasn't even talked about. If them getting out means a hard border, who cares about those 1.8m across the sea anyway?

 

[Adisa]

There will be an inquiry over brexit in the future.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I just hope our government fully understands the reality of what we're dealing with over there and are planning accordingly. If stuff like this helps with that then I'm grateful for it.

Sure. And, in a way, I do admire him for being one of the first high profile Brexiteers who has stopped pretending the UK can have their cake and eat it. Still an absolute thundercnut for leaving it this late in the day to stop feeding the electorate a load disinformation and lies.

 

[GloryHunter07]

I wonder if Farrage and Bojo have the guts to come out and say the same?

 

[Kentonio]

Revealed: Leaked Draft Of PR Plan For May's Brexit Deal

MPs will vote on Theresa May’s Brexit deal on November 27, an email leaked to HuffPost UK suggests.

Information from a draft communications plan - or ‘grid’ - used by the Department for Exiting the European Union (DexEU) sets out how ministers plan to bolster support for a deal the Prime Minister could strike within days.

Downing Street has said the plan “doesn’t represent the Government’s thinking” and denied its details are accurate.

The plan claims Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab will trumpet a “moment of decisive progress” once cabinet reviews the deal, after which the proposed agreement will be leaked to journalists.

“The narrative is going to be measured success, that this is good for everyone, but won’t be all champagne corks popping,” the email reads.

This will be followed by ten days of “sherpa meetings” with EU negotiators before May tells the CBI conference on November 19 that “we have delivered on the referendum”.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-plan-revealed_uk_5be1cb14e4b04367a8811a8f

 

[sincher]

I suggest a 2 year deferral under the current arrangements since there doesn't seem any prospect of an agreement.

Then in 2 years' time, I suggest a 2 year deferral.

Then when those 2 years are up, a 2 year deferral seems like it would be needed.

After those 2 years are up, deferring for 2 years would probably make sense.

Then with a bit of luck enough dickheads are dead that we can just forget the whole thing and move on.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6403_en.htm

Brexit: European Commission intensifies preparedness work and outlines contingency action plan in the event of a no deal scenario with the UK

Extract
- Visas: The Commission has today proposed to amend the Visa Regulation. This would mean that when EU law no longer applies in the U.K, on 30 March 2019 in case of a no deal or at the end of the transition period in case of an orderly withdrawal, UK nationals would be exempt from any visa requirement for short stays in the EU. This is entirely conditional on the UK also granting reciprocal and non-discriminatory visa-free travel to EU citizens travelling to the UK. This is in line with the Commission's commitment to put citizens first in the negotiations with the UK.

 

[balaks]

Refreshing honesty here:

What an utter prick. Though at least he is being honest and I'd not be surprised if that is the view of quite a few leave voters. They simply couldn't give one toss what happens in Ireland - North or South.

If a few paddys get killed as a result of all this and the economy in NI tanks then it's a small price to pay to 'get our country back', etc.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Looks like May has managed to secure some sort of withdrawal agreement with the EU. Let's see the details...

 

[horsechoker]

Looks like May has managed to secure some sort of withdrawal agreement with the EU. Let's see the details...

Wouldn't get too excited, the DUP could sabotage the whole deal

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Wouldn't get too excited, the DUP could sabotage the whole deal

I fully expect it to not pass the muster and be shot down by either the DUP or parliament as a whole. I am interested in what was agreed on the Irish border though, I suspect some form of kicking the can down the road.

 

[balaks]

Wouldn't get too excited, the DUP could sabotage the whole deal

I feel incredibly nervous now waiting till I see what they have agreed.

 

[horsechoker]

I fully expect it to not pass the muster and be shot down by either the DUP or parliament as a whole. I am interested in what was agreed on the Irish border though, I suspect some form of kicking the can down the road.

I think its a customs area of some sort but obviously waiting for details.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I think its a customs area of some sort but obviously waiting for details.

It must be the UK as a whole remaining in a 'temporary' customs union as a backstop if no free trade deal is agreed, the question is what is the exit process from the customs union, who controls it, and what EU rules the UK must obey while a member of the customs union.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Full article here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1113/1010667-brexit-deal/

Looks like it involves the UK basically staying in the customs union (no surprises), so, yeah, the DUP will reject it, back to square one.

 

[Adisa]

Time for brexiteers to put up or shut up.

 

[balaks]

Full article here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1113/1010667-brexit-deal/

Looks like it involves the UK basically staying in the customs union (no surprises), so, yeah, the DUP will reject it, back to square one.

They won't reject it if NI is in the same situation as UK though - they reject it if NI is treated differently. The problem now is not the DUP - it's the Conservative rebels.

'The backstop will come in the form of a temporary UK-wide customs arrangement, with specific provisions for Northern Ireland, which go deeper on the issue of customs and alignment on the rules of the single market than for the rest of the UK.'

Also matters what the actual detail of this is.

Also this will not be a temporary arrangement in practice because there is no way to overcome the border issue in reality - the UK will essentially remain in the customs union permanently. This is exactly what they have needed to do months ago but May was weak.

 

[Cheesy]

It'll be us staying in the customs union but worded in a way which makes it sound like we aren't. Even though it'll get rejected by the DUP anyway.