Her Red Lines Mansion House speech is the worst political calculation in recent history.
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Yup on both counts.
Just sent to Labour members:
"The government is falling apart before our eyes. Their half-baked deal has unravelled, the Prime Minister has lost all authority and is clearly incapable of delivering a Brexit deal that commands even the support of her Cabinet - let alone Parliament and the people of our country.
Our Party Conference agreed that this deal would be judged against our six tests, and if it failed to meet them we would vote against it.
After two years of bungled negotiations, the government has produced a botched deal that breaches the Prime Minister's own red lines, does not meet our six tests and will leave the country in an indefinite halfway house without a real say.
As I said in Parliament earlier today, people around the country will be feeling anxious about the industries they work in, the jobs they hold and the stability of this country.
We do not accept that the choice is between the government's deal and 'no deal'. We will work across Parliament to stop a 'no deal' outcome. Labour has set out our alternative plan for a sensible Brexit that would work for all of our nations and regions, bring Parliament and the country together, support jobs and our economy and guarantee rights, standards and protections.
If Parliament votes down this shambolic Tory deal — as seems likely — this will represent a loss of confidence in the government. In those circumstances the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power and deliver the Labour government this country desperately needs.
If we cannot get a General Election, in line with our conference policy, we will support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote.
We are ready to lead, ready to deliver a sensible deal that works for all our regions and nations and ready to build a Britain that works for the many, not the few.
Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party"
"The government is falling apart before our eyes. Their half-baked deal has unravelled, the Prime Minister has lost all authority and is clearly incapable of delivering a Brexit deal that commands even the support of her Cabinet - let alone Parliament and the people of our country.
Our Party Conference agreed that this deal would be judged against our six tests, and if it failed to meet them we would vote against it.
After two years of bungled negotiations, the government has produced a botched deal that breaches the Prime Minister's own red lines, does not meet our six tests and will leave the country in an indefinite halfway house without a real say.
As I said in Parliament earlier today, people around the country will be feeling anxious about the industries they work in, the jobs they hold and the stability of this country.
We do not accept that the choice is between the government's deal and 'no deal'. We will work across Parliament to stop a 'no deal' outcome. Labour has set out our alternative plan for a sensible Brexit that would work for all of our nations and regions, bring Parliament and the country together, support jobs and our economy and guarantee rights, standards and protections.
If Parliament votes down this shambolic Tory deal — as seems likely — this will represent a loss of confidence in the government. In those circumstances the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power and deliver the Labour government this country desperately needs.
If we cannot get a General Election, in line with our conference policy, we will support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote.
We are ready to lead, ready to deliver a sensible deal that works for all our regions and nations and ready to build a Britain that works for the many, not the few.
Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party"
They will be watching the country crash and burn regardless of their stance. They have no power. The hardline stance either way may ensure they never do.
I'm not talking about EU rules. I'm saying that whether you want to have some sort of arrangement with the EU or whether you prefer a hard brexit and renegotiating individual agreements with every single nation you'd like to trade or deal with, you are going to have to compromise and abide by certain rules and regulations.
With all the sovereignty you could wish for, the UK isn't big enough, powerful enough or important enough to dictate what terms it wants to deal with the world on. You lack the size and influence of the US, China or the EU and you will find such negotiations a sobering and humbling experience as a small, isolated nation with delusions of grandeur.
Once upon a time Britain was better educated than much of the world, it had a better navy and a highly effective military. It is far from the top of any of those metrics any more and other countries are not going to bend over to submit because of some perverted sense of nostalgic stockholm syndrome.
You keep saying this, but there literally wouldn't be a point to the EU if the UK wasn't losing sovereignty. As part of the EU, EU legislation supercedes local legislation; European courts are final appellate courts. What exactly does sovereignty mean to you if this doesn't sound like losing it?
What was their plan again?
Which speaks volumes about the state of that party, and uk politics in general.
Yeah, it's arguable that Corbyn's Leave policy is honouring the wishes of many of it's voters, but it sure ain't what the much-vaunted hundreds of thousands of new members and it's activists want. They don't seem to blame him though, so his manoeuvring is working so far.
Why do you think that ex-pats wanted to leave? If you live in another European country for some or all of the time, you don't want anything that makes it more difficult to do that. I've read on the ex-pat sites that some parts of France are already refusing residency applications from Brits who've been living there - they shouldn't be doing that as we've not left yet, but it's happening.
All this would have been averted if the country would just have had an honest conversation about what was on offer right from when the results of the referendum came.
It's terrible that up until July this year, people were still spreading lies about what we would be able to get.
It's terrible that up until July this year, people were still spreading lies about what we would be able to get.
Pm being advised to make vote on the deal a free vote... That way she does not have to have a confidence motion (or potentially resign) if defeated
Would then allow her to go back to the EU and say it's a bad deal re-negotiate or no deal... Which of course probably ends in a no deal... But potentially a no deal with Her surviving as pm
Would then allow her to go back to the EU and say it's a bad deal re-negotiate or no deal... Which of course probably ends in a no deal... But potentially a no deal with Her surviving as pm
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I'm happy with compromising. Trade deals aren't zero-sum affairs: the UK doesn't need to 'dictate' anything to anyone else, I believe we have a strong offer to most countries in the world in terms of trade, and they have a lot to offer us. If I had my way the UK would enact unilateral free trade (but that's another matter).
I mean, if we were negotiating with China and one of their demands was that we have to port their entire regulatory framework into UK law, you'd rightly be against it.
Again, what are the examples given by modern British politicians which leave you so certain that your local legislators and homegrown government will do a better job than their EU counterparts?
A decade of watching your politicians come up with new excuses for their failures rather than glibly blaming Europe is going to be a painful experience for you. If it wasn't for the 48% of decent, reasonable people in your country and the fact that your nonsense may well impact the rest of us, particularly here in Ireland, I'd be looking forward to watching your comeuppance.
The only reason France would not accept would be if the applicants didn't comply with the rules. No doubt the same rules Brexiters pretend don't exist.
Geoff Boycott got his colleagues run out many times due to his selfishness. Apt.
I don't trust any politician to make the right choices, whether British or otherwise. It's a matter of proximity - the larger the organisation (political entity), the more difficulty people will have affecting the representatives. I'm not making a statement about the personal qualities of EU legislators vs UK legislators.
Problem for him is that he won't be able to get a better deal. The stuff he's talked about is pure fantasy as is the Tory delusion. EU aren't about to undermine themselves and make it attractive to leave due to one region of 65 million leaving. We have very little to bargain with and are not important enough.
I'm sure he knows this though and just wants a crack at the job.
Unfortunately some groups had and still have no interest in an honest conversation as that simply wouldn't suit their agenda.
Looking at Labour's six tests (which as far as I can see no Brexit deal would pass) it seems dishonesty is still a popular currency on their side, let alone among the Tories who currently seem to be a clusterfeck of dishonesty and incompetence.
They still are now, the EU have said this is the best deal they're going to get. Corbyn and Gove saying they could negotiate a better deal, for starters. It doesn't get better than this.
Labour vs Tory feels so irrelevant right now when it comes to UK politics. Brexit vs no-Brexit is all that matters in the scheme of things.
The fecking state of the British press kneeling down in front of Rees-Mogg 
Jacob Rees-Mogg being portrayed as a man speaking for the people is the greatest reinvention in human history.
A comical looking Tory who uses long words, that you usually only see when someone has a stab in the dark at Scrabble over Christmas. He's everything the BBC look for when they're looking to create a new hero.
Much as I don't like His politics I think he would slaughter whoever he was up against on pmq's (with the possible exception of Dennis Skinner)
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There is a good to decent chance that he'll literally bore the opposition benches to death.
It’s basic maths - over 40% of UK trade goes to the EU while it’s around 8% the other way. Quite why anyone still thinks we can drive a stronger deal is beyond me. The only choices are chaos, a managed decline under May’s proposal or status quo (give or take a rebate).
It's even better for the EU, they've got the UK right where they want them. The UK will have no say and will be contributing to the budget while most things stay similar. The only way out for the UK is if the EU let them out and if the UK does leave, they fall off the cliff later instead of now. There is only one sensible solution and that is to remain in the EU.
The UK unilaterally decided to sign treaties with other countries and decided to share a common area and common jurisdictions. They didn't lose any sovereignty, they sovereignly decided to not do certain things alone, they also retained the unilateral ability to leave at any point.
You seem to not understand what sovereignty means and how it can be exercised, choosing to take decisions with other is a sovereign choice, the Treaties of the European Union and the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union have been imposed on no one, every signatory took a sovereign decision and can reverse it.
Harsh but accurate. Just over 50% of the electorate are delusional.
Merkle and France saying the deal is not up for renegotiation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46228454
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46228454
I know what you're saying but it appears that's not the case everywhere, Paul. If I can find the link, I'll post it.
We found the process to be a little convoluted in Italy, but as you'll know, the Italians do like their bureaucracy! We had no problems (it took about 6 weeks), but we did follow the instructions to the letter, including staying in three days a week waiting for the random police visit.
Right. The UK signed treaties to give up some of it's sovereignty in order to be part of the EU. And then there was a vote where part of the issue was whether to leave those treaties and regain that previously given up sovereignty. It's possible to voluntarily lose your sovereignty (most of us do it everyday when we go to work).
Not in that context since like you said you unilaterally chose to leave those treaties. So you used your sovereign powers over these treaties.
I fully agree (that’s what I meant by managed decline).
Even though it’s my desired outcome, I struggle though to see how things can move towards the third option of a second referendum as it would most likely require a general election first, which would mean that some Tory MPs had voted down their own leader in the knowledge it would probably lead to a Corbyn government.
But it's all centralised in Nantes even if the initial contact is at local level. Yes there's lots of paperwork like Italy but the decisions are taken at a national level. A couple of my English friends got theirs yesterday. I've seen expat forums before and well um.. blind leading the blind.
What I meant was if they don't comply with the rules like being able to support themselves, not being a burden on the state etc, the same as the UK could refuse EU citizens now while still in the EU.
You're creating a distinction where there isn't one. But this is going nowhere in particular: if you want to reframe it to say that the referendum was about using a sovereign right to exit EU treaties and no longer be subject to their laws, regulations and courts, that's fine. It doesn't change the substance of the argument.
First it's not "their" laws but "your/our" laws, the UK are a member of the EU. And secondly, you can't exercise a power that you allegedly lost, the reality is that you never lost it, it's not that difficult to understand.
Interesting comparison. For example I could attempt to reclaim this 'sovereignty' by quitting my job. Me and my household would be worse off for it tho. Very apt...