I am serious.
The general stance has been a lack of compromise. It existed before Brexit where Cameron tried to get concessions to avoid a referendum
They are as much to blame for the lack of a 'clean' Brexit as May's government. 2 (arguably 3) years wasted
To compromise you need to have an actual alternative.
Well yes, it was the UK that proprosed the backstop. Which would only take effect if alternative arrangements can't be found. Which makes it all the more strange that the brexit crew are so against if they don't think it will be a problem to get alternative arrangements in place. If they think that alternative arrangements can be worked out easily enough then what is the problem?Not quite sure of the origin (as in was it a UK suggest after the EU rejected an alternate solution) as like the vast majority of others, I was not party to the series of negotiations
The fact is that it is a key factor in the overwhelming rejection of May's. The EU need to compromose if they want a deal*
* 'If' is a key word. It's their choice how they want to approach the negotiations, but they should be judged according on how conducive/ motivated they are to securing a deal that both sides are happy with
So you are ok with free movement of people to the UK over this 'virtual' border?In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based
They really aren't.
a) The EU have been far more helpful than they needed to be and
b) It isn't their responsibility to compromise even further to the point of damaging themselves for the benefit of a country that will no longer be part of the EU and who have acted in such bad faith.
It is not their actions that have brought us here so they are not to blame.
Well yes, it was the UK that proprosed the backstop. Which would only take effect if alternative arrangements can't be found. Which makes it all the more strange that the brexit crew are so against if they don't think it will be a problem to get alternative arrangements in place. If they think that alternative arrangements can be worked out easily enough then what is the problem?
But what is your fear of falling into the backstop if such alternative arrangements are so easily arrived at?My understanding is how the backstop is ended. If it's not a fixed period, or cannot be exited unilaterally (without penalty) then its worse than being a full memeber state. It's not Brexit it's Br-surrender liberty
The set up of the EU is a key underlying factor for Brexit. Their arrogance and stubbornness will likely be the fuel for their eventual demise
Interesting thread. Who'd have thought democrats taking control of congress would have implications for stuff other than Trump/Russia.
In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based
But what is your fear of falling into the backstop if such alternative arrangements are so easily arrived at?
It's undermining democracy. You are essentially giving weight to one side of the argument
My question isn't what is your fear of being in the backstop. It is more to do with your fear of the backstop becoming a reality if these alternative arrangements are so easy to come by? The backstop will not be an issue at all if you are to believe what the likes of Johnson, Mogg and Farage say about the irish border being a non-issue.The lack of or severely limited ability to leave a backstop. If its not under basic principles I stated earlier, it's a surrender of liberty. Not sure sure if I can explain in any other way that it is unacceptable
Interesting thread. Who'd have thought democrats taking control of congress would have implications for stuff other than Trump/Russia.
What a load of cock. Our politicians are far worse - arrogant and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. We blame the EU for an incredible range of things most/all of which aren't their fault. We are a laughing stock.
How does a virtual border work?In broad terms, a 2 year interim period would be my preference (makes up for the mismanagement of the last 2 years). This is primarily trade focussed on keeping trade tariffs free and regarding Ireland, have a 'virtual' border where customs are self-decleration based
None of that fix the WTO issue, if you don't want a border you need to be in the same custom area. That's the only way to be legally in line with WTO rules.
They really aren't.
a) The EU have been far more helpful than they needed to be and
b) It isn't their responsibility to compromise even further to the point of damaging themselves for the benefit of a country that will no longer be part of the EU and who have acted in such bad faith.
It is not their actions that have brought us here so they are not to blame.
The status of UK politicians, does not change the culture and attitudes of EU actors.
I earlier put blame on May's government for the handling of Brexit. My hope is the next election will see a clear out of dross politicians across the spectrum but I won't hold my breath
I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.
My view is that the EU, either overtly or covertly has tried to make our leaving as difficult as possible without making it obvious.
It would be naive to suppose that they have bent over backwards to make it easy.
Why would they. A large country like the UK leaving is obviously a big blow to the whole concept of a Federal Europe.
Not quite sure of the origin (as in was it a UK suggest after the EU rejected an alternate solution) as like the vast majority of others, I was not party to the series of negotiations
The fact is that it is a key factor in the overwhelming rejection of May's. The EU need to compromose if they want a deal*
* 'If' is a key word. It's their choice how they want to approach the negotiations, but they should be judged according on how conducive/ motivated they are to securing a deal that both sides are happy with
I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.
My view is that the EU, either overtly or covertly has tried to make our leaving as difficult as possible without making it obvious.
It would be naive to suppose that they have bent over backwards to make it easy.
Why would they. A large country like the UK leaving is obviously a big blow to the whole concept of a Federal Europe.
My question isn't what is your fear of being in the backstop. It is more to do with your fear of the backstop becoming a reality if these alternative arrangements are so easy to come by? The backstop will not be an issue at all if you are to believe what the likes of Johnson, Mogg and Farage say about the irish border being a non-issue.
Choosing by far the worst option based on the very characteristics that we are far worse for is idiotic. And the EU the EU have behaved very well through Brexit despite this odd perception of them and despite them not acting purely in their own self interest. I'd take abolishing the UK parliament and letting Brussels run us over Brexit every day of the week and twice on St George's day.
I would like to understand how the EU has been far more helpful than they needed to be.
My view is that the EU, either overtly or covertly has tried to make our leaving as difficult as possible without making it obvious.
It would be naive to suppose that they have bent over backwards to make it easy.
Why would they. A large country like the UK leaving is obviously a big blow to the whole concept of a Federal Europe.
It really shouldn’t be a complete surprise should it? I mean the Irish are quite powerful in the US and won’t have forgotten that Britain have history of screwing over the Irish
That is very vague and simply not true. What is 'anything'? What arrangements can be made to ensure the GFA isn't broken? To ensure there is not a hard border on the island of Ireland without breaking the GFA, EU, and WTO rules?I've saidbwhat I've had to say. I would not join a 'backstop' that surrenders liberty with no get out.
In terms of alternate arrangements, anything is possible with the right attitude. As it stands, May's outfit have been weak and disorganised, while the EU have not shown willing/ gave not been pressed to compromise. That's why we are in this unclean Brexit situation.
A chance in stance by both sides and a drop in adverse behaviour would do wonders
I've saidbwhat I've had to say. I would not join a 'backstop' that surrenders liberty with no get out.
In terms of alternate arrangements, anything is possible with the right attitude. As it stands, May's outfit have been weak and disorganised, while the EU have not shown willing/ gave not been pressed to compromise. That's why we are in this unclean Brexit situation.
A chance in stance by both sides and a drop in adverse behaviour would do wonders
You do realize though that most of the reasons for brexit have been self-made due to the failings of successive governments over many years. Blaming EU for everything is an easy narrativeThe set up of the EU is a key underlying factor for Brexit. Their arrogance and stubbornness will likely be the fuel for their eventual demise
Fight to the death?How should have it have been decided?
Well you clearer have a different perception to me on the EU and I doubt I change your mind
To be fair they did make compromises and they did agree a deal. Then the UK government went back on that deal and are now asking for more compromise. I can't say i blame them for not wanting to re-open negotiations.
Fair point.
If I was to very crudely assign blame, is say the EU should have offered more to Cameron to prevent the Brexit result, May should have rejected the 'deal' much earlier and the EU now need to get sensible around matters of sovereignty
Compromise and risk the GFA? What?I've saidbwhat I've had to say. I would not join a 'backstop' that surrenders liberty with no get out.
In terms of alternate arrangements, anything is possible with the right attitude. As it stands, May's outfit have been weak and disorganised, while the EU have not shown willing/ gave not been pressed to compromise. That's why we are in this unclean Brexit situation.
A chance in stance by both sides and a drop in adverse behaviour would do wonders
Fair point.
If I was to very crudely assign blame, is say the EU should have offered more to Cameron to prevent the Brexit result, May should have rejected the 'deal' much earlier and the EU now need to get sensible around matters of sovereignty
That is very vague and simply not true. What is 'anything'? What arrangements can be made to ensure the GFA isn't broken? To ensure there is not a hard border on the island of Ireland without breaking the GFA, EU, and WTO rules?
Liberty? WTF are you talking about.
Again, you would only be joining said backstop if alternative arrangements don't materialise. And you provided no real answer on those alternative arrangements. Am I right then in suggesting your fear for the backstop is because you don't think there are realistic alternative arrangements?I've saidbwhat I've had to say. I would not join a 'backstop' that surrenders liberty with no get out.
In terms of alternate arrangements, anything is possible with the right attitude. As it stands, May's outfit have been weak and disorganised, while the EU have not shown willing/ gave not been pressed to compromise. That's why we are in this unclean Brexit situation.
A chance in stance by both sides and a drop in adverse behaviour would do wonders
What is older? At what age should it be decreed that you are no longer better equipped to make decisions such as Brexit than younger people? 30? 35? 45? Who decides this? Young people, old people, or middle aged people?
What in the almighty flying feck are you on about?I'm not going to educate you on the basic political principles of how a political state comes about.
You might need to do some wider reading
