Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Bola]

Norway isn't in the EU and that's the type of deal that people where offered by the leave campaign which they failed to create. You don't think that leavers should be given the opportunity to decide what type of exit they want since the one initially offered was a lie?

Not sure how to explain it any other way, but ballot paper did not specify a deal, not did it say 'this is a 2 part vote'

 

[Carolina Red]

That was their choice and eventually it got public support.

No different (apart from gaining public support) from offshoots of the communist and Far Right fascists movements being around.

So if it’s “their choice”, meaning the elected representatives of the UK, to put another referendum to the British people...

 

[Maticmaker]

Yeah people never regret or change their decisons , ever. What kind of bullshit argument is that ?

Most people that I know (admittedly not a scientific sample) still retain their Leave or Remain position's, in fact most are even more entrenched in their views, if that was possible! Of course people change their minds, but usually after the effects of their decisions have been felt, i.e. 'byers remorse' etc.

There is no real evidence that large numbers of people (i.e. enough to give a larger overall majority one way or the other) have changed their minds about leaving or remaining. We were given a binary choice on this matter, by Parliament, to remain or leave nothing can undo that result. The question is will the MP's enact this mandate or will they not... to be honest I suspect either way the next decade will change the face of British politics forever... or until a new referendum is called, that is if any future Government is silly enough to try!

 

[Silva]

the ballot paper also said nothing about ending freedom of movement, would you be okay with a brexit that has freedom of movement in it?

 

[Silva]

Most people that I know (admittedly not a scientific sample) still retain their Leave or Remain position's, in fact most are even more entrenched in their views, if that was possible! Of course people change their minds, but usually after the effects of their decisions have been felt, i.e. 'byers remorse' etc.

There is no real evidence that large numbers of people (i.e. enough to give a larger overall majority one way or the other) have changed their minds about leaving or remaining. We were given a binary choice on this matter, by Parliament, to remain or leave nothing can undo that result. The question is will the MP's enact this mandate or will they not... to be honest I suspect either way the next decade will change the face of British politics forever... or until a new referendum is called, that is if any future Government is silly enough to try!

it's a 1% swing and we're pretty much at the stage where enough old people have died/enough new voters are of age for the referendum to go the other way without anyone changing their mind

 

[JPRouve]

Not sure how to explain it any other way, but ballot paper did not specify a deal, not did it say 'this is a 2 part vote'

It also didn't suggest that it was a one part vote or that people had no right to be questioned about the nature of a deal. It's worth remembering that it was an advisory referendum and that leaving was never an obligation.

 

[Bola]

So if it’s “their choice”, meaning the elected representatives of the UK, to put another referendum to the British people...

In 40s years time if I'm correctly following your train of thought?

 

[Bola]

It also didn't suggest that it was a one part vote or that people had no right to be questioned about the nature of a deal. It's worth remembering that it was an advisory referendum and that leaving was never an obligation.

Bit pointless having an advisory referendum

They may as well.just send everyone a survy monkey link along with questions of FPP, nationalisation, tuition fees......

 

[Silva]

In 40s years time if I'm correctly following your train of thought?

would you be okay with a brexit where we left the european union but maintained the 4 freedoms with the EU?

 

[Carolina Red]

In 40s years time if I'm correctly following your train of thought?

Well, if we are following your train of thought, the only reason it took 40 years is because it took that long to build popular support.

If the popular support is there now, then you should have no objection to it... unless you think you’ll lose, that is.

 

[GloryHunter07]

(Re)build the wall!

Seriously though, this has become such a mess. Does Scotland have enough of an economy to be self sufficient and keep the same standard of living in the event that they remain with the EU?

We had that debate for Scotlands Indyref and the answer is probably not, but it depends on who you ask. What currency they use would be a big problem to start with.

 

[Maticmaker]

it's a 1% swing and we're pretty much at the stage where enough old people have died/enough new voters are of age for the referendum to go the other way without anyone changing their mind

It would be still a small 1% to maybe 2% swing, not exactly conclusive, even if all the dead people had voted leave and all the young people would vote remain. If we are talking in such terms what about all the middle aged people who have become 'old' who might vote Leave because they are p***ed off with the EU and all the young people who will not have registered to vote, even now! Its too close to call either way and is the politics of the madhouse (as Einstein paraphrased it) to go down that route again expecting a different result!

 

[Carolina Red]

We had that debate for Scotlands Indyref and the answer is probably not, but it depends on who you ask. What currency they use would be a big problem to start with.

Thanks for the response.

Yeah, I can’t see the UK being willing to let them still use the £ if they choose to leave and remain with the EU.

There’s another huge issue with UK military bases in Scotland as well.

 

[JPRouve]

Bit pointless having an advisory referendum

They may as well.just send everyone a survy monkey link along with questions of FPP, nationalisation, tuition fees......

Well, that's the type of referendum that they chose.

 

[Silva]

It would be still a small 1% to maybe 2% swing, not exactly conclusive, even if all the dead people had voted leave and all the young people would vote remain. If we are talking in such terms what about all the middle aged people who have become 'old' who might vote Leave because they are p***ed off with the EU and all the young people who will not have registered to vote, even now! Its too close to call either way and is the politics of the madhouse (as Einstein paraphrased it) to go down that route again expecting a different result!

it's not all of them, but the great irony of the demographic breakdown in the referendum was that demographic changes would swing the vote just as we came to the exit deadline, there are also a lot of gammon faces who initially voted remain because they're status quo tories who now shout "gerron with it" and might win it for Brexit though

 

[Bola]

Well, if we are following your train of thought, the only reason it took 40 years is because it took that long to build popular support.

If the popular support is there now, then you should have no objection to it... unless you think you’ll lose, that is.

I go back to my eaelier point about revoting on every law/ election every 2 years.

Uncertainty is a disease and neverendums incubate it

 

[Carolina Red]

I go back to my eaelier point about revoting on every law/ election every 2 years.

Uncertainty is a disease and neverendums incubate it

Wait... you just had no objection to Leave people pushing for another referendum repeatedly since 1973. “That was their choice” and all. Now you revert back to the “neverendum” catchphrase?

Seems to me that you are only opposing it because you fear the outcome. Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Silva]

the only thing that never seems to end is your repetition of the dullest phrases in the english language

 

[Bola]

Wait... you just had no objection to Leave people pushing for another referendum repeatedly since 1973. “That was their choice” and all. Now you revert back to the “neverendum” catchphrase?

Seems to me that you are only opposing it because you fear the outcome. Can’t have it both ways.

Read my earlier post to Ninja earlier on a way ahead. That's if your comprehension can break through your bias

 

[Carolina Red]

Read my earlier post to Ninja earlier on a way ahead. That's if your comprehension can break through your bias

Projecting much?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. You are just being disingenuous with your argument.

 

[Carolina Red]

As to your post to Ninja...

“How about we Brexit”... Nobody even knows that that means. Not even the May government itself.

 

[Bola]

Projecting much?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. You are just being disingenuous with your argument.

I'll summarise it again.

Leave

Let new/ existing parties that want the EU l, select the appropriate candidates and manifesto pledges

Have a GE

Have parliament vote for a referendum

Hold a referendum



There is your fair process.

 

[Buster15]

Does it? There was one in 2015 and 2017 and probably another one in the not too distant future (i.e. before 2022)

I was referring to a referendum in a specific country being rare as opposed to general elections.

 

[Bola]

As to your post to Ninja...

“How about we Brexit”... Nobody even knows that that means. Not even the May government itself.

It's fairly clear now. It's hard exit on WTO, or May's deal.

Running out of time for anything else

 

[Carolina Red]

Leave

Nobody even knows what that means. And that isn’t what was sold to the people prior to the referendum.

The UK was caught it a bait and switch and you want to just go through with it. Unreal.

 

[Maticmaker]

it's not all of them, but the great irony of the demographic breakdown in the referendum was that demographic changes would swing the vote just as we came to the exit deadline, there are also a lot of gammon faces who initially voted remain because they're status quo tories who now shout "gerron with it" and might win it for Brexit though

That's the trouble with 'trends' in demographics, you can predict how many people may be born, or die in a specific period, what is not specified over the same a period of time is how people will vote at any point. The problem with politics as Harold Macmillan reportedly observed .."things change... events dear boy, events".

 

[Buster15]

As to your post to Ninja...

“How about we Brexit”... Nobody even knows that that means. Not even the May government itself.

Precisely. Brexit means Brexit.
Oh really. She was saying it as if she understood what that really meant.
Proof of that is that she maintains that her 'deal' equates to Brexit.

 

[Carolina Red]

@Bola - while we are at it, here’s a few other bits I’d like to see you address...

the ballot paper also said nothing about ending freedom of movement, would you be okay with a brexit that has freedom of movement in it?

would you be okay with a brexit where we left the european union but maintained the 4 freedoms with the EU?

Well, that's the type of referendum that they chose.

 

[Silva]

That's the trouble with 'trends' in demographics, you can predict how many people may be born, or die in a specific period, what is not specified over the same a period of time is how people will vote at any point. The problem with politics as Harold Macmillan reportedly observed .."things change... events dear boy, events".

What? Yeah you can, it's pretty easy, the UK has a stable rate (albeit increasing thanks to NHS cuts) of people dying at older ages and very low rates of teenage deaths. There's events, but this ain't one of them.

 

[Smores]

If people change their mind, then we could have a 3rd vote in case people change their mind again, then a 5th, 7th......

It was a referendum, not a neverendum

You know logic isn't just rhyming words right?

In all likelihood we would have another at some point, are you oblivious to the fact this was already the second such ref?

 

[Klopper76]

It's fairly clear now. It's hard exit on WTO, or May's deal.

Running out of time for anything else

Wouldn’t that make the UK the only country in the world trading on solely WTO terms?

 

[JPRouve]

@Bola - while we are at it, here’s a few other bits I’d like to see you address...

There is no answer to my point, in reality the referendum is only an inspiration for a subsequent act of parliament where the MPs decided to brexit. Things get interesting when you count the amount of time MPs voted on the actual nature of brexit since the initial act of parliament.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I was referring to a referendum in a specific country being rare as opposed to general elections.

Yes, fortunately for the UK referendums are rare but a referendum could in theory occur more often than a general election and vice versa.

 

[Carolina Red]

There is no answer to my point, in reality the referendum is only an inspiration for a subsequent act of parliament where the MPs decided to brexit. Things get interesting when you count the amount of time MPs voted on the actual nature of brexit since the initial act of parliament.

That’s the thing. He seems to think otherwise.

To you:
If Parliament is who chose to act on the advisory referendum, then couldn’t Parliament also decide to change its mind and ask for more advice?

 

[Bola]

@Bola - while we are at it, here’s a few other bits I’d like to see you address...

What is it, pretend to be Andrew Marr day? I'm not some politician sitting on QT or Newsnight

I've answered well into thr double figures in the past couple of hours and its the 3pm. perhaps you can prove your 'impartial' agenda and spread your investigative questions to other stances, put out your own personal manifesto on the EU issue

 

[Maticmaker]

What? Yeah you can, it's pretty easy, the UK has a stable rate (albeit increasing thanks to NHS cuts) of people dying at older ages and very low rates of teenage deaths. There's events, but this ain't one of them.

Think you've missed the point I was trying to make.
Yes, with demographic trends you can predict births and deaths, what you cannot predict is how people will vote at a given point, mainly because of the unpredictability of political events. You alluded to the fact that so called 'gammon faces' who voted remain, might change to leave voters and swing it for Brexit... but not perhaps if it leads to the downfall of the Tory party?

Even before a second referendum can be considered, other events have to play out. EG. Will Labour MPs who came from leave areas cross the floor and vote for May's deal? Will Tory MPs from leave areas vote for measures to defeat Brexit? Perhaps the only thing for sure, is the DUP will not vote for anything with unlimited 'backstop' in it? Any or all of these events should they take place could affect the vote in a second referendum, just as much as if 'x' number of old people die and 'y' number of new voters come on to the register.

 

[JPRouve]

That’s the thing. He seems to think otherwise.

To you:
If Parliament is who chose to act on the advisory referendum, then couldn’t Parliament also decide to change its mind and ask for more advice?

Parliament can do whatever it wants, they can cancel brexit or they can ask for more advice. Their duty is to do what is best for the country and their constituency.

 

[Carolina Red]

What is it, pretend to be Andrew Marr day? I'm not some politician sitting on QT or Newsnight

I've answered well into thr double figures in the past couple of hours and its the 3pm. perhaps you can prove your 'impartial' agenda and spread your investigative questions to other stances, put out your own personal manifesto on the EU issue

Right, so you’re going to ignore the two tough questions @Silva asked you.

 

[Silva]

Think you've missed the point I was trying to make.
Yes, with demographic trends you can predict births and deaths, what you cannot predict is how people will vote at a given point, mainly because of the unpredictability of political events. You alluded to the fact that so called 'gammon faces' who voted remain, might change to leave voters and swing it for Brexit... but not perhaps if it leads to the downfall of the Tory party?

Even before a second referendum can be considered, other events have to play out. EG. Will Labour MPs who came from leave areas cross the floor and vote for May's deal? Will Tory MPs from leave areas vote for measures to defeat Brexit? Perhaps the only thing for sure, is the DUP will not vote for anything with unlimited 'backstop' in it? Any or all of these events should they take place could affect the vote in a second referendum, just as much as if 'x' number of old people die and 'y' number of new voters come on to the register.

Seen

Nah, Labour MPs won't cross the isle in large numbers, they've already announced their support for the second ref. having failed to bring about a GE and their plan is to call the vote after the Tuesday vote fails, as it'll have a small chance of being backed by tory remainers then

 

[JPRouve]

would you be okay with a brexit where we left the european union but maintained the 4 freedoms with the EU?

By his definition there is no requirement other than leave the EU. So for example the UK could leave the EU and join a new institution named the EC(European cartel) that has the exact same members, rules and functioning than the EU.