Why do you assume I want any sort of Brexit at all? I'm desperate that this will not happen … and I get the impression that worries you a little.
Could be wrong, and believe me, I've been wrong before.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Could be wrong, and believe me, I've been wrong before.
This is very sensible IMO:
You're such a Corbyn Stan
It's a fecking joke. Bottom of the barrel level politics on display....
I'm loving it. Months of complaining about Corbyn picking his moment and then they all demand that they want to pick their moment.You're such a Corbyn Stan
Article 50 gets extended. Another referendum where the young vote in hordes to remain. Brexit gets cancelled. It's all lining up nicely. One can dream...
Listening and occasionally watching all these meaningless Amendments being put forward and voted on, I can't help thinking about the "deck chairs on the Titanic"
Next week it will be "women and children first please" and the London Philharmonic will play as the no deal trap door opens... only the British could organise chaos!!
Next week it will be "women and children first please" and the London Philharmonic will play as the no deal trap door opens... only the British could organise chaos!!
I don't get this. Do you also think it is undemocratic to vote people in and out of office every four years?
It's three years down the line, the consequences and potential outcomes are now etched out a lot clearer, as are the fantasies and outright lies that dominated the 1st referendum. It is nothing like the "just keep voting until we get the result we want" scenario that was proposed in the early days (and that May is now enacting in parliament).
Circumstances have changed. If the will of the people has changed with it, the democratic thing to do is to poll it, not hold on to a "but three years ago, a tiny majority wanted this" if it is not something the majority wants anymore.
No, I know you don't want Brexit.
I think Brexit is the most mindnumbingly stupid thing the UK could do.
What worries me is that people start thinking it's not going to happen.
Unless something that is meaningful happens very quickly, the UK will just slip out the back door.
It's a simple and stupid argument and one thing I've learnt in recent years is simple and stupid logic wins.
I mean really imagine if 80% of the country now wanted to remain, according to these people the democratic thing here would be to ignore them. How can that make any sense?
Parliament has painted itself into a corner with no solutions a majority can agree on, which might very well default to a worst case scenario by way of indecision.
They are terrified of touching on solutions that the present majority of the population actually want. Parliament has essentially been radicalised into a dichotomy where the question of which voting groups being listened to is reduced to "hard brexit" and "no deal brexit" supporters and wondering how to appease them, whilst blithely assuming that all other voting groups opinions are presently inconsequential to their future careers.
A second referendum might correct this hysteria.
We should delay the people's vote a bit. Just need a few more die hard leavers to die hard.
Scenes when Trump calls for a 'People's Vote'
Yes possibly, but it's not a guaranteed solution.
Or it might further divide the country, produce a similar result to the first and cause even more issues than we have already.
I'm indifferent to a second referendum, but if we get put in the same situation of a leave win, MP's still won't be happy and will do everything they can to block it. What do we do then? People are under the assumption that remain would win easily, the same polls predicted a big remain win the first ref, look what happened? I think the easiest way, in my opinion, would be a general election, if Labour get in, they can pursue their own vision of brexit, if the conservatives win, obviously the withdrawal agreement is fine with the public.
Amusing isn't it that the first big action of the TIG group is to feck up the peoples vote. Well done you attention seeking idiots
It often gets brought up that, apart from Corbyn being a Brexiteer at heart, Labour does not oppose Brexit or strongly back a second referendum because they are afraid of alienating a sizeable section of their voters who happen to be Leavers. However, aren't they afraid of alienating the Remainers - who, incidentally, are actually the majority within the party as far as I'm aware? They seem to be absolutely immaterial to the thought processes of both major parties.
The whole thing is a confusing mess.
If it gives a result similar to the first, it ought to clarify the mandate that parliament then must enact. But, unlike the vagueness of the 1st referendum, it should be pretty simple to put up actual choices:
"Please assign each option a number from 1 to 4, with 1 being your most desirable option and 4 being the least desirable one:
A. No deal brexit
B. Hard Brexit, leaving the single market (May's deal)
C. Soft Brexit, staying in the single market (norway+)
D. Remain"
A general election alongside it would be good for strengthening the mandate of the referendum, as one must imagine a newly constituted parliament will have more confidence in their feelings on EU being representative of their voters, unlike the current situation.
They need Jeremy Kyle to be the speaker
This whole resistance to a second vote baffles me. It's not ignoring the vote, That vote was over 2 years ago and attempts at leaving have been made. What do people think has been happening since the vote?
It's not trying to change the vote either, years have passed, more information has come to light, and people have had more time to familiarise themselves with the details surrounding Brexit (and all its peculiarities and intricacies).... It's a more informed more relevant vote, and nobody is being forced to change their vote, or restricted.
STFU with the whining...
It's not trying to change the vote either, years have passed, more information has come to light, and people have had more time to familiarise themselves with the details surrounding Brexit (and all its peculiarities and intricacies).... It's a more informed more relevant vote, and nobody is being forced to change their vote, or restricted.
STFU with the whining...
Is it just me who finds it weird that people are pushing for a second referendum? Where does this stop then? At the 3rd or the 4th? More information will come to light with each passing week/month. Does democracy mean we're going to keep voting whenever new information comes to light? Isn't that why we have elected representatives who vote on issues in the house of commons?
Edit-
Genuine question - is it possible for a government in power a few years later to seek membership of the EU again?
Edit-
Genuine question - is it possible for a government in power a few years later to seek membership of the EU again?
it's not as weird as potentially a third vote on a deal nobody wants, that has been resoundingly rejected twice, negotiated by a Priminister who will happily keep trying to get them to pass her deal yet says it's not democratic to hold a second referendum.
They can't come to a consensus on how to continue.
That's why they are basically on the fence, trying to be all things to all people: a little bit pro remain, with all that guff about "jobs first Brexit", and a little bit pro leave, with the respecting the outcome of the election and refusal to do anything that might facilitate a remain outcome.
To be honest I dont think the "sizable section of their voters who happen to be leavers" is the real issue at all, its a convenient excuse. The issue is the two most influential people in the Labour party right now spent their whole lives opposing the EU.
Lads why don't you just stay with us, I admit I was pissed at Britain quite a few times and thought EU will be better off without you, as you might be blocking some crucial reforms, but now I'm really too sad to see you go and to see all these drama. We're friends, stronger and more prosperous together, it's also more fun to be on the same boat. How beautiful it would be to keep going together?
I’ve written love letters like that...
you're a member of that boy band, aren't you?
One would imagine it stops at the 2nd. If Leave, then the options on the table are clearer now and the consequences stripped of the lies and fantasies of the 1st one. One imagines that parliament should be able to get it over the line.
If a Leave plan had been formulated that parliament could agree on, there'd be no talk of a 2nd referendum. The reasons are grounded in the utter lack of unclarity of what "leave" actually entailed at the time of the original referendum and how this is meant to be enacted. The UK is at a democratic impasse - Parliament can not decide on how to enact the referendum, the circumstances for all involved are by now quite changed after three years and the premises clearer. It is an impasse that essentially cries out for a democratic vote to clarify and empower the mandate that is to be carried out.
In what way? You seem to be upset that it might not happen, as opposed to how ignorant people might, or might not be.
EDIT: This is not a personal attack, it's just an observation. You have been very helpful whenever I've had a question about this subject. I just detected a tinge of bias I'd not seen before … I hope you are not offended. No offence intended
Just saw your amended post . No I'm very rarely offended.
I must admit there is a tiny part of me that wants to be able to prove that Brexit would be a disaster but I'm not that evil and really hope that it is cancelled.
Scenes when Trump calls for a 'People's Vote'
I heard he did the opposite … but it seems whatever I read on this subject gets turned on its head two seconds later!
From Donald Trump's meeting with Leo Varadkar … the President says he is opposed to a second referendum …
Thank you, again!
I'm the Sophie aged 6 and I can draw unicorns.
Many of us would love to stay. We'll still be pals. x
I do agree with you but resistance to a second vote is hardly baffling. There was plenty of information available before the last vote, which led a lot of us to the conclusion that Brexit was a really stupid idea. What has happened in the last two years vindicates what a lot of people were saying back then, it is not brand new information. True, it is a lot more obvious now, but I wonder whether it is any more obvious to the people inclined to vote for Brexit? I suspect, as i have said dozens of times before (tho I have no evidence to back it up) that it has merely made people who already opposed it even more certain of their view. I reckon the majority of people who wanted Brexit still do. And that is because people's opinions on this question derive from emotions, not rationality.
Also, while you didnt mention this aspect, a lot of the time when I talk to people about this they cite the lies that were told last time as a reason not to treat that result as sacrosanct. But does anyone think another election would be conducted with a greater spirit of honesty? There'll be just as many lies the next time around as there were last time. Different lies, I guess. Nobody could say German car manufacturers will ensure we get a great deal anymore with a straight face. But there'll be lies about how well Britain would fare trading on WTO terms, all that bullshit about eradicating all duties on imports and cheap trainers that JRM loves going on about.
And the fact that the vote was two years ago is only relevant if we are proposing to have ongoing votes every few years to confirm we are happy with our current EU membership status - in or out. We could have GEs and EU referendums, alternating like Euros and World Cups, one every 2 years. That way everyone gets to vote on the most accurate, up to date information.
And of course a Brexiter would also complain that if the result had gone the other way, they wouldnt be getting a second chance. Not an analogous situation of course because there is no confusion or uncertainty around continuing with the status quo. But every time there was a crisis in the EU, if there was a decision to set quotas for migrants or increase the budget or anything like that, Brexiters would say: "THE SITUATION HAS CHANGED! WE NEED ANOTHER VOTE."
Having said all that, I do think a second ref is the best - perhaps only - way out of this hole we've dug ourselves into.
Good job, thread title change guy!
We(the CAF) want to stay mate. I agree that we are better together.
Of course it’s not just you. The same inane argument against a second vote has been made since the original bloody vote itself.