Central midfield this season...

You can't see him harassing, closing down, forcing opponents to back pass? Also can't see him holding the line in midfield, instructing full-backs and other midfielders to defend? Well, that's graft that you can't see.
 
December_16 said:
You can't see him harassing, closing do wn, forcing opponents to back pass? Also can't see him holding the line in midfield, instructing full-backs and other midfielders to defend? Well, that's graft that you can't see.
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harassing, closing down, forcing opponents to back pass- yep that's graft aka running around a lot

holding the line in midfield - not graft

instructing full-backs and other midfielders to defend? - not graft and I don't think he does it particularly
 
Getting stuck in = graft.

Something Fletcher does a lot more than Carrick.

Especially useful when you're up against it in the midfield, like we usually are against the big teams.
 
True. I think it's fairly difficult to make a particularly definitive statement about it though. Harassing, closing down, tackling is all that you need to describe graft as. You might call it running around a bit, but then Mozza wasn't.

It's not the same as the amount of distance you cover, which is exactly what Mozza was referring to. Statistically Carrick literally runs around as much as Fletcher. But he doesn't do as much 'running around', by your definition.

Carrick covers as much distance, but he doesn't do that through closing down players, harassing and tackling, he does that through always striving to be in the best position to cut out the pass. He uses the closing down bit as a last resort, Fletcher doesn't. Fletcher's perfectly adept at positioning himself, but he furthers that by closing down the player and making it even more difficult for the opposition to play.
 
Fletcher improved greatly last season, but he's still nowhere near a top class midfielder.
Graft is no good unless there is some steel behind it - Keane had it, Paul Scholes had it, but Fletcher just runs around to get in the way of people. He can't tackle.
With Fletch its not so much being hit with steel when you've got the ball, more like being tickled with a damp sponge.
 
It's all got a bit caricatured (Carrick-atured? Sorry.) here...

Fletch has always grafted, but last season he did show a marked improvement in his all-round play. His passing through midfield was a lot more Carrick-like and incisive, he lost the ball far less, he made a lot of runs into the box and he generally looked more confident as well as, somehow, a fair bit quicker.

That said, he was still nowt special. Actually when I used to watch him in the reserves he was a pretty creative player as well as dominating midfields, that's never materialised at top level, as yet.

Carrick's far the more cultured player and just as good defensively because he's so good at reading the game (and he also puts in a lot of graft). He's also not that special, mind. He's in the top ten of PL centre midfielders, but I wouldn't put him in the top 5.

Graft is just hard work, ie running about and tackling.
 
lucius said:
Fletcher improved greatly last season, but he's still nowhere near a top class midfielder.
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Given his performances in big games last season when he outshone more feted opponents proves he is top class. He may not be flashy, but he's improved his overally game considerably. He is far more economical in possession, drives the team forward, gets stuck in, scores the odd goal and sets the tempo in many games.
 
Plechazunga said:
It's all got a bit caricatured (Carrick-atured? Sorry.) here...

Fletch has always grafted, but last season he did show a marked improvement in his all-round play. His passing through midfield was a lot more Carrick-like and incisive, he lost the ball far less, he made a lot of runs into the box and he generally looked more confident as well as, somehow, a fair bit quicker.

That said, he was still nowt special. Actually when I used to watch him in the reserves he was a pretty creative player as well as dominating midfields, that's never materialised at top level, as yet.

Carrick's far the more cultured player and just as good defensively because he's so good at reading the game (and he also puts in a lot of graft). He's also not that special, mind. He's in the top ten of PL centre midfielders, but I wouldn't put him in the top 5.

Graft is just hard work, ie running about and tackling.
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Yup, that's a fair summary.

The thing about Fletcher is that when he's having a really good game his passing is actually excellent. But he's still a bit inconsistent and when he's not on form, his passing is the first thing to go. However, he seems to have beefed out a bit and even when his passing isn't clicking he still puts himself about a bit.

By that I mean he actually gets stuck into the opposition and makes them expect to get a kick if they fanny around too much. In the game against Valencia he kicked a lump out of some poor sod, shortly after our own Valencia got crudely hacked down. That pleased me. You need a bit of aggro in central midfield. For all his skills on and off the ball, one thing Carrick distinctly lacks is a bit of aggro.

EDIT: having said it's a fair summary I think both Carrick and Fletcher are better player than you give them credit for. No way is there 9 CMs better than Carrick in the league.
 
peterstorey said:
Having put Brwnd on the spot I think it's fair to say that graft is also attitude/demeanour/willingness to get stuck in - in fact they look like all the things Carrick lacks to be a top banana.
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I'd say Carrick is more measured, if he doesn't think he can win the ball he won't go for it, and he won't got to ground recklessly either. Very often than is more effective for his role and he relies of reading the game and intercepting passes, nicking the ball away from attackers etc rather than flying in to tackles etc.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
EDIT: having said it's a fair summary I think both Carrick and Fletcher are better player than you give them credit for. No way is there 9 CMs better than Carrick in the league.
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Yeah top ten but not tenth. I'd have him on about joint sixth with a bunch of other cnuts.

Gerrard, Lampard, Essien, Fabregas, Ballack, Deco and Scholes are all much better than him, doubts about the last three age-wise.

Alonso, Mascherano, Barry, Joe Cole are about the same, Modric will probably prove as good.

If Stephen Ireland played for United we'd probably think he was the Man.
 
Top said:
Have you seen the car he used to drive? I don't think Ireland himself thinks he's the Man.
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Anyone whose self-created nickname is 'Daddy Dick' thinks he's the man.

For what it's worth, I'd happily punch him in the throat and write abusive messages on his Bebo.
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah top ten but not tenth. I'd have him on about joint sixth with a bunch of other cnuts.

Gerrard, Lampard, Essien, Fabregas, Ballack, Deco and Scholes are all much better than him, doubts about the last three age-wise.

Alonso, Mascherano, Barry, Joe Cole are about the same, Modric will probably prove as good.

If Stephen Ireland played for United we'd probably think he was the Man.
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I'd have him about fifth, and that's if you're including Gerrard which I'm not sure you should.

Lampard, Essien, Fabregas and Gerrard all ahead of him.

I'd have Deco, Ballack and Scholes some distance behind him.
 
Plechazunga said:
There's some confusion re Keane, probably between those who saw him from the beginning and younger caftards.

...
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Top post.

Keane (post ~1998) was more than anything (which includes being our talisman and captain) the link between defense and midfield / attack. Whenever our defenders had the ball, either after receiving it from the keeper or winning it from the opposition, Keane would storm back and pick it up and pass it on. And this is a skill that is not easy to master. You need to know if there's someone chasing after you, where to pass it when you recieve the ball, whether to pass it long or short -- basically it requires a lot of experience and is incredibly important to a team such as utd.

Funny as it might seem, I belive our first attempt at replacing him (well, the link-up part) was Kleberson. He was an excellent link-up player for Brazil. Unfortunately it didn't work out at utd, and we didn't have anyone who could really connect our back four with the rest until Carrick arrived, and it's no coincidence that three years of success arrived with him.

edit: I would put Carrick among the top two midfielders in the premier league as far as raw talent goes, and among the top six when you include mentality. I've never seen anyone else who is able to pass the ball accurately 40 yards with his weaker foot, and he is incredibly at spotting runners ahead of him (he almost never passes the ball backwards). Unfortunately, he doesn't seem mature/confident enough, and rarely (if ever) takes a game by the scruff of its neck.
 
djemba's arse said:
Top post.

Keane (post ~1998) was more than anything (which includes being our talisman and captain) the link between defense and midfield / attack. Whenever our defenders had the ball, either after receiving it from the keeper or winning it from the opposition, Keane would storm back and pick it up and pass it on. And this is a skill that is not easy to master. You need to know if there's someone chasing after you, where to pass it when you recieve the ball, whether to pass it long or short -- basically it requires a lot of experience and is incredibly important to a team such as utd.

Funny as it might seem, I belive our first attempt at replacing him (well, the link-up part) was Kleberson. He was an excellent link-up player for Brazil. Unfortunately it didn't work out at utd, and we didn't have anyone who could really connect our back four with the rest until Carrick arrived, and it's no coincidence that three years of success arrived with him.
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Good post Arse
 
Yeah well said Djemba

Top said:
Have you seen the car he used to drive? I don't think even Ireland himself thinks he's the Man.
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He's a genuine, dyed-in-the-wool moron, but he's becoming an excellent player

Brwned said:
and that's if you're including Gerrard which I'm not sure you should.
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Give over
 
Well, Gerrard plays closer to the attack than he does to the midfield for Liverpool, and he plays on the left wing for England.

He's not really a centre mid any more.

It's like including Rooney in a list of best left wingers in the league. He's very good there, like Gerrard is in midfield, but he's not a winger.
 
The point is, if you stuck Gerrard in centre midf, he'd be better than Carrick. I don't care where fat Rafa actually sticks him, if he played him in goal for a season would it mean you couldn't compare him to forwards/wingers anymore?
 
If he played there for two seasons then that's the position I'd call his position.

Would you talk about Rooney as one of the best left wingers in the league, seriously? You know you wouldn't, despite him being better than most left wingers when put there.
 
Plechazunga said:
If someone asked me, Who's the better left-winger, Rooney or Harry Kewell, I'd say Rooney.
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The only person stupid enough to ask you that question would be Harry Kewell. And he'd ask it with a smug, knowing smirk on his face.
 
Well then you've obviously not been watching Harry Kewell rip it up for Galatasaray with quicker stepovers than ever before.
 
Brwned said:
Well then you've obviously not been watching Harry Kewell rip it up for Galatasaray with quicker stepovers than ever before.
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It just so happens I have not. Is he still overweight and incredibly impressed with himself?
 
Hehe...

The point is, Gerrard's a better centre midfielder than Carrick. Try a thought experiment... Real Madrid want to buy a CM. Who will they pay more for?
 
Essentially, yeah. Still isn't how I'd go about it, but there you go. Rooney's not a winger and Gerrard's not a centre mid so I wouldn't list them in the fop 5 of either position.
 
Is that the first time the old 'What would Real Madrid do' question has been used successfully to win an argument where the answer wasn't either (a) Spunk money like a spastic that's just won the lottery, or (b) Sell a load of old tin cans they'd left out for recycling to the Madrid Local Authority for £200m?
 
djemba's arse said:
Top post.

Keane (post ~1998) was more than anything (which includes being our talisman and captain) the link between defense and midfield / attack. Whenever our defenders had the ball, either after receiving it from the keeper or winning it from the opposition, Keane would storm back and pick it up and pass it on. And this is a skill that is not easy to master. You need to know if there's someone chasing after you, where to pass it when you recieve the ball, whether to pass it long or short -- basically it requires a lot of experience and is incredibly important to a team such as utd.

Funny as it might seem, I belive our first attempt at replacing him (well, the link-up part) was Kleberson. He was an excellent link-up player for Brazil. Unfortunately it didn't work out at utd, and we didn't have anyone who could really connect our back four with the rest until Carrick arrived, and it's no coincidence that three years of success arrived with him.

edit: I would put Carrick among the top two midfielders in the premier league as far as raw talent goes, and among the top six when you include mentality. I've never seen anyone else who is able to pass the ball accurately 40 yards with his weaker foot, and he is incredibly at spotting runners ahead of him (he almost never passes the ball backwards). Unfortunately, he doesn't seem mature/confident enough, and rarely (if ever) takes a game by the scruff of its neck.
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Us winning three consecutive titles has much, much more to do with the explosion of a certain Portugeezer.
 
We had the whole 'Gerrard in CM' discussion a while ago, and I still maintain there are some serious questions to be asked as to whether or not he's a great player or just a very good one in that role - at least in a two-man midfield.
I think Benitez feels the same way, with him going out of his way to not use Gerrard in that role, even when they played with Keane up front with Torres.

Whether he's a better CM than Carrick is difficult to say, I think, as he we haven't really seen him in that role other than against some lesser opponents (as far as I can remember from a analysis Browned did of all his performances last season)
 
Mozza said:
No he wasn't, his passing was no where near a match for Carrick and he didn't cover as much ground
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I think you will find that Carrick's passing was only slightly better and Fletcher put in far more tackles. The ground covered was nearly even.


Mozza said:
Shouldn't a player who's more then a grafter be doing things against the weaker sides? As I've said elsewhere Fletcher gets praised for graft and nothing else
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Who said he wasn't doing anything against the weaker sides? Just because he is better against the good sides doesn't mean he doesn't do anything against the weaker sides? Ridiculous again.

Mozza said:
We defended very well without Fletcher, Hargreaves was right back.
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Hargreaves played the majority of his matches in the middle. Don't try and pretend that he was playing right back all the time. Who are you trying to kid?


Mozza said:
It worked well but it wasn't our biggest strength. Our defence being rock solid, the amount of possession and more importantly how high we could hold it up the pitch was our biggest strength, countering when for the majority of matches we sit in the oppositions half is a rare thing
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Our speed was still the main weapon that we had. Power and pace.


Mozza said:
4 goals (non in this calendar year) and 2 assists for Fletcher, 4 and 11 for Carrick, no contest as to who was the better midfielder last season
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Bullshit argument. If that was the case, Gareth Barry is a far better player than Michael Carrick. It doesn't work like that.
 
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