If only there was a way of not seeing our central midfielders chasing shadows even against the likes of Birmingham
Central midfield this season...
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Carrick is supposed to be the "great" one with the likes of Fletcher and Anderson plus Gibson playing around him. However, for many, Carrick is a bit of an enigma - good, excellent even and hugely influential one week, quite ordinary the next. Agree about Hargreaves. What guarantees are there that he's going to be ok in the new year - even after surgery. Tendonitis of the knee is a real problem and comes back with over use and that's bad news for a professional sportsman. It'll be interesting to see how Rafa Nadal copes with it during his comeback.
Ridiculous.
The teams performance was very one dimenstional yesterday and that comes down largely to the central midfield. The pairing of Fletcher and Scholes may we wll scrape past a team who are going to sit back and defend but not against anything better. We have a big problem if Fletcher is our first name on the team sheet this season.
You what?
What do you expect us to do against a team like Birmingham who only come to Old Trafford with one upfront and 9 men behind the ball at all times?
Even the most talented centre mids would find it hard when Birmingham give up so little space between their lines.
We played it right yesterday - got the ball out to Nani and Valencia and put in crosses to get behind their back 4.
If we had got a second goal before half time, the second half would have been very different as Brum would have had to come out and play. As it was, they were well organised yet pretty negative throughout the game.
Fletcher was super in the first half yesterday. A few people commented that he lost the ball too much. He had the ball 86 times, 75 of his passes were accurate. That percentage rate for accurate passes is 87.2% which is better than his own and Carrick's percentage rate for the whole of last season. So, that wasn't too bad. Most of the passes that went astray were killer ball attempts. And when he did lost it, he won it back on several occasions. He put in numerous tackles and made numerous interceptions. I'm not a massive fan of stats but they are used a lot here. Statistically he was very good yesterday, and the fact that there was room for improvement is a very good thing.
Fletcher and Scholes struggled a little when Birmingham had the ball. Why? Think about it. Birmingham had 5 in midfield. That put 3 men up against Fletcher and Scholes and the wingers often moved inside. On the other hand, out wide players seemed to stay out wide. Plus, off the ball, Scholes does very little closing down. Fletcher was trying to close down three men the whole time. By the middle of the second half, he was visibly exhausted. Even a player with that kind of workrate cannot do the closing down for three men for the majority of the 90 minutes.
On the ball in midfield yesterday, we were quite good. Scholes was much better in the second half. Fletcher was fantastic in the first. Birmingham weren't able to get the ball from the midfield. It was mostly lost by one of the wingers or from one of the more forward players.
The teams performance was fairly flat, but I don't think it was down to the centre of midfield. Fletcher and Scholes were the ones trying to make things happen. The wingers were relatively poor and Berbatov hadn't got his usual touch or skill (not helped by a finicky ref).
I think Fletcher and Scholes played relatively well yesterday. Fletcher was excellent in the first, and Scholes was very good in the second. They did dominate Birmingham. It started getting sloppy when Fletch got tired. That had to be expected. Also, it was obviously recognised by SAF as he was about to bring Anderson on to get some extra legs in midfield.
When we are playing against the better teams, we are most likely going to have Fletcher and Carrick in the team. Against teams like Birmingham, we will be able to play most central midfield partnerships and still come out on top. Fletcher and Scholes came out on top against a three man midfield of Lee Carsley, Keith Fahey and Barry Ferguson.
I though Fletch did a good job yesterday. What he does really well is closes the ball down in advanced areas of the pitch, thus forcing the opposition player to rush his pass. You will often see us win the ball back that way.
This is not acknowledged by a lot of people.
Most people only seem to take notice of what players do on the ball.
Plus, you dont have to make big takles or sit infront of the back 4 to be an good defensive midfielder.
Put it this way. You're a manager, and you have the chance to get a PL midfielder on a free. Could be anyone. Essien, Gerrard, Fabregas, Lampard, Mascherano, Carrick, Aquilani, Barry, Ballack, Deco, Scholes, Mikel, Ireland, Anderson, Fletcher, Denilson, Lucas, Gibson...
Where are Carrick and Fletcher going to come on your list? I'd have Carrick about fifth or sixth, Fletcher about tenth, behind Ireland. We're still talking pretty good midfielders, but it's all relative.
Where are Carrick and Fletcher going to come on your list? I'd have Carrick about fifth or sixth, Fletcher about tenth, behind Ireland. We're still talking pretty good midfielders, but it's all relative.
I'd have Carrick and Fletcher 5th and 6th, or maybe 6th and 7th.
There's room for improvement but it does the job.
There's room for improvement but it does the job.
Yes he did. He did a lot of scurrying about, closing down and made some very useful passes, despite also giving it away a few times. What was not so good was his tackling. I didn't think he was that great in the 50/50 situations and playing with Scholes you need to have someone who can tackle. With OH still out and likely to be so for the first half of this season if not longer, I always thought Fletcher could do a job for us in that sort of role. I'm not so sure he can completely. I think most would agree he's better off with Carrick, where both do a bit of everything.
They clearly aren't the best midfielders in that list, yet they won the league last year. Fergie can only do with what he has, and what's realistically available on the market. Carrick fits the bill and our system, Fletcher didn't cost a pence. Chelsea seem to have a much stronger team on paper, yet they barely beat us on penalties and with a controversial goal, and we didn't even have Vidic or Carrick playing.
It depends though. Say we had to pick two centre mids, then Fabregas and Lampard are arguably the two best but you wouldn't want to pick them both, would you?
For me Fabregas and Lampard would be ahead of Carrick as the creative, ball playing midfielder.
Essien ahead of Fletcher as the defensive mid.
I'd take Gerrard or Ireland to play on the wings.
For individual ability they are probably way down the list.
For effectiveness, they have to be very high. And as a partnership, results prove that they are top of the list.
They won the league in a team with the best defence and attack in the league, that's now lost its best player.
As for money, that's not a great argument, given that we've spent about 55 mil on centre midfielders in the last three years.
My first choice would be Essien and Gerrard, but that's not really the point of the thought experiment
Not this again
Gerrard's been playing top level football for over ten years, for about eight of those he was a centre midfielder - one of the best in the world. The fact that Rafa's using his versatility to play him elsewhere is irrelevant.
Gerrard's been playing top level football for over ten years, for about eight of those he was a centre midfielder - one of the best in the world. The fact that Rafa's using his versatility to play him elsewhere is irrelevant.
Im not sure i understand your point?
Essien, Gerrard, Fabregas, Lampard and Mascherano would get pretty much any team in the world. They would be players that you would associate with the "world class" tag.
He would tell you hes a midfielder.
I dont think you always needs top tacklers these days. I cant think of too many top tacklers. You have to be very careful when tackling these days, so theres more effective and safer ways of winning the ball back.
As a said before, Fletch is best winning the ball back by closing down and creating pressure.
Our midfield is, relatively, weak. Just accept it people and move on.
And yet he plays as a forward.
Hes still a midfielder.
Gerrard's been playing top level football for over ten years, for about eight of those he was a centre midfielder - one of the best in the world. The fact that Rafa's using his versatility to play him elsewhere is irrelevant to the discussion.
He's a pretty average centre midfielder. He's a more effective forward.
Gerrard's been playing top level football for over ten years, for about eight of those he was a centre midfielder - one of the best in the world. The fact that Rafa's using his versatility to play him elsewhere is irrelevant to the discussion.
Stevie Me was voted Players' Player of the Year in 2005 so he is probably not as shit in center mid as some Liverpool fans would have you believe, they are just reluctant to break up his partnership with Torres. He's one of the most complete midfielders in the world.
You overexaggerate. He had 5 full seasons before Rafa joined Liverpool. He's had five after - playing mostly out wide or behind the striker. When he has played in centre midfield he has been average (under Benitez).
In his 5 seasons prior to Rafa he had a couple very very good seasons as a defensive midfielder. A couple good seasons as a more attacking central mid but not excellent.
Nah, Benitez has only consistently played him wide from about a season and a half ago.
He was never a defensive midfielder, he was box-to-box, and amazing, if a bit undisciplined.
You say potato I say potato (this phrase doesn't really work written down, but oh well)
He has played behind the striker consistently for about a season and a half. Before that he had a good two years or more playing from the right wing.
He has played behind the striker consistently for about a season and a half. Before that he had a good two years or more playing from the right wing.
On a side note I just looked up Gerrard on wikipedia. His international record is shocking. Asides from his goal against Germany 8 years ago he has barely scored any important goals against worthwhile opposition!
Also, just to compromise, I think Gerrard could have been a fantastic centre midfielder - if he was playing at the right club with the right personnel earlier in his career. I think it's too late now though - he's found his role further upfield.
You mean tomato?
I'm pretty sure it's not four seasons since I've seen Gerrard consistently in the middle. But even if it is, that's still seven years of playing there.
England are shite.
Yeah I agree he could have been better, Houllier did his best to ruin him. If he'd been at United from an early age, and come through alongside Roy Keane, he'd have had to learn discipline, he wouldn't have been forced to take all responsibility for carrying a shit, uncreative team, and he'd have been one of the greats. He's got literally everything, except a consistently good football brain.
England are shite.
Yeah I agree he could have been better, Houllier did his best to ruin him. If he'd been at United from an early age, and come through alongside Roy Keane, he'd have had to learn discipline, he wouldn't have been forced to take all responsibility for carrying a shit, uncreative team, and he'd have been one of the greats. He's got literally everything, except a consistently good football brain.
I think this is my favorite thread at the caf.
Well we better cast down Lampard, Rooney and Scholes as players, then.
If I needed a central midfielder I'd have Carrick fourth behind Essien, Lampard and Fabregas. Although obviously Gerrard would jump ahead as well if I had the luxury of playing him in a more attacking position. If Ballack were younger I'd have him in that group as well, but his form since joining Chelsea combined with his age sees him fall down the list.
Fletch would be up there with Mascherano, Barry, Mikel and Ireland as the best of the rest, with no real order there (although obviously if I wanted a more attacking player Ireland would get the nod).