Is Mozza actually claiming Carrick was better than Fletcher yesterday?
Central midfield this season...
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Yes. And there isn't even a question about it in his mind.
Yes. Unashamedly.
Well according to the diagram Mozza linked, most of the passes Fletcher made were either sideways or backwards. Both players play far too much safe, which is why I think we've got a problem in centre midfield. And Carrick plays deep which is why you'll hardly see him make forward runs.
Weren't you relying on giggs though to come a bit deeper and make most of the forward balls to Rooney and friends?
Yep. He got into some decent positions but made a hash out of the final ball, I think a player like Fabregas or a young Scholes would've punished the Arsenal defence in the first half(in Giggs's role)
sweet Jesus.Fletcher was outstanding yesterday and Carrick was far from his best.
IIRC he started poorly last season though and didnt really get going till around November.
I feel a Giggs in better form would have done so too, to be fair.
For me, Fletcher is our most in form midfielder and has cemented his place as our first choice for the time being. Scholes and Giggs have both been decent in the games they have played but for obvious reasons they are not going to play week in week out. Carrick has been disappointing and below his normal standard of performance and Anderson/Gibson have hardly figured.
Fergie will probably continue to rotate week in week out and gradually the performance levels of Carrick and Anderson will pick up to a much improved level and Giggs/Scholes will keep producing the solid cameos. To be honest I would prefer for us to back Anderson with a run of games paired with Fletcher to see what he is capable of as Anderson is the one central midfielder who offers something completely different.
I am sure plenty will argue he does not deserve it and others, such as Gibson, could be given a chance but until he gets a solid run of games we are never going to know if he is going to make it at United and while Carrick is struggling for abit of form, it would seem a good idea. I am fairly certain Carrick will rediscover his normal level of performance shortly but while he is not there, I can't see anything wrong in putting abit of faith and responsiblity on Anderson to harness his undoubted talent.
I don't share the opinion many have of this current United squad and side. The positives this season so far are what I would have expected(e.g. plenty of players stepping up and the old stagers carrying on their form of old) we just need a continued gradual improvement from others to compensate for the loss of Ronaldo and Tevez. Anderson is the next in line in this respect.
Fergie will probably continue to rotate week in week out and gradually the performance levels of Carrick and Anderson will pick up to a much improved level and Giggs/Scholes will keep producing the solid cameos. To be honest I would prefer for us to back Anderson with a run of games paired with Fletcher to see what he is capable of as Anderson is the one central midfielder who offers something completely different.
I am sure plenty will argue he does not deserve it and others, such as Gibson, could be given a chance but until he gets a solid run of games we are never going to know if he is going to make it at United and while Carrick is struggling for abit of form, it would seem a good idea. I am fairly certain Carrick will rediscover his normal level of performance shortly but while he is not there, I can't see anything wrong in putting abit of faith and responsiblity on Anderson to harness his undoubted talent.
I don't share the opinion many have of this current United squad and side. The positives this season so far are what I would have expected(e.g. plenty of players stepping up and the old stagers carrying on their form of old) we just need a continued gradual improvement from others to compensate for the loss of Ronaldo and Tevez. Anderson is the next in line in this respect.
To be fair, our midfielders hardly had any options for forward passes on Saturday, with Rooney being isolated and having to deal with two or even three defenders around him. Giggs just playing in front of Fletcher/Carrick had an awful game - his forward passes were quite easily intercepted by the defenders, especially first half.
Rooney is not suited to playing on his own up front more so this season with no Ronaldo. Both Valencia and Nani give very little support in and around the penalty area unlike Ronaldo who had a tendency to cut inside during the last three years of his stay at Old trafford.
We could have done with Berba linking up the midfield and attack on Saturday
I agree. Giggs was pretty poor and we were struggling with ideas in the first half. He definitely improved in the second, but with Berba I think we could've done better in the first half. IMO Giggs shou've played further back, with Berba and Rooney up front. WIthout Fabregas, Arsenal weren't something special in midfield and there was no reason, to put up such a negative approach to the game.
It worked however, but I don't think we could scrape through next time.
Manchester United's lack of a playmaker dulls their creative thinking
Sir Alex Ferguson has not had the greatest success in buying creative midfielders but United clearly lack the spark of genius
Manchester United's Wayne Rooney, left, who was often left isolated, battles with Arsenal's William Gallas at Old Trafford. Photograph: Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images
The rumour that Barcelona want to persuade Cesc Fábregas to return to the Nou Camp surfaced again at the weekend, but the man who really ought to be breaking the bank to sign the Catalan midfielder – or the nearest possible equivalent – is Sir Alex Ferguson. Although slow starts by Manchester United are nothing new, and experienced fans know well enough to keep their frustration to themselves until Christmas looms, Old Trafford's pleasure in a hectic win over Arsenal on Saturday could not disguise the side's lack of inspiration in the creative areas.
With Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta providing the flow of passes for their forwards, Barcelona already have what United lack. Arsenal, of course, possess a superfluity of such players, including three of Saturday's absentees: Fábregas, Samir Nasri and Tomas Rosicky. For this vital early-season match against the London side, Ferguson relied on the 35-year-old Ryan Giggs to provide the creative spark behind his lone striker, Wayne Rooney.
Ferguson's occasional tactical eccentricity is part of his charm, but it was nevertheless astonishing to see Rooney left so obviously stranded for the first 45 minutes. On the way back from Old Trafford, a mental trawl through personal experience going back to the immediate post-Munich era threw up no examples of any United striker being so isolated. Rooney, as always, exploited his guile and worked his socks off to compensate for the lack of support, but United deserved to go in at half-time a goal down, and might have been dead and buried had Ben Foster not brilliantly saved an instinctive first-time shot by Robin van Persie, superbly set up by Andrey Arshavin, three minutes into the second half.
A few words from the boss saw United improve after the interval, Giggs getting closer to Rooney and the tempo speeding up. Even so they had to rely on a slightly questionable penalty – Sky's super-slo-mo showed that Rooney's knees were already buckling before he slid into the diving Manuel Almunia – and an own goal for their victory, which is good enough for three points but not really good enough for Manchester United.
The summer departures of Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tevez were always going to exact a price in terms of attacking flair, and it may be that Nani and the newcomers Antonio Valencia and Zoran Tosic will make the most of the opportunity. But United would look a more convincing proposition if they had a genuine playmaker patrolling the central areas, providing a base of continuity.
Ferguson's mastery of the transfer market ensures that his successful investments outnumber his failures, but they seem to be concentrated in certain areas. He likes acquiring strikers, second strikers, wingers and deep-lying midfield players. Apart from the two veterans of the 1992 Youth Cup-winning team, his current first-team midfield roster, excluding wingers, amounts to Michael Carrick, Darren Fletcher, Anderson, the inexperienced Darron Gibson and the unlucky Owen Hargreaves: none of them is either suited or ready to be a replacement for Paul Scholes as the player who dismantles a defence with a single pass and pops up to score 15 goals a season. Like Giggs, Scholes no longer has the legs for the job in the biggest matches.
Perhaps the unhappy and expensive experience with Juan Sebastián Verón undermined Ferguson's faith in playmakers. United's most impressive performances since that time have been achieved with a line-up in which aggressive midfield players such as Fletcher and Anderson create the platform on which out-and-out forwards can perform. The flowering of the partnership of Rooney, Ronaldo and Louis Saha during the French forward's injury-free autumn of 2006 was a typical, if short-lived, expression of that approach.
Ferguson's reluctance to acquire a player of the type of Luka Modric, Joe Cole, Deco or Stephen Ireland – not to mention any of the clusters on show at Barcelona or Arsenal – is particularly odd since the man he most regrets failing to acquire during his time at Old Trafford is Paul Gascoigne. But then we have to remember that Ferguson is also the man who decided not to bid for Zinedine Zidane from Bordeaux in 1996 because he and his scouts, having watched the Frenchman closely, could not decide on his best position.
Then again, perhaps that says something about Ferguson's approach to the job. Free spirits are not really to his taste, and are only acceptable when they can demonstrate an irreproachable attitude to preparation. And yet who, of all the players under his command in the past 23 years, has done more for him and for Manchester United than Eric Cantona and Ronaldo, two men who represented individualism in its most extreme form? On Saturday, for all Rooney's marvellous efforts, his side lacked the spark of genius – a commodity United's supporters have come to take for granted.
Sir Alex Ferguson needs a playmaker to release United's attacking flair | Sport | The Guardian
Sir Alex Ferguson has not had the greatest success in buying creative midfielders but United clearly lack the spark of genius
Manchester United's Wayne Rooney, left, who was often left isolated, battles with Arsenal's William Gallas at Old Trafford. Photograph: Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images
The rumour that Barcelona want to persuade Cesc Fábregas to return to the Nou Camp surfaced again at the weekend, but the man who really ought to be breaking the bank to sign the Catalan midfielder – or the nearest possible equivalent – is Sir Alex Ferguson. Although slow starts by Manchester United are nothing new, and experienced fans know well enough to keep their frustration to themselves until Christmas looms, Old Trafford's pleasure in a hectic win over Arsenal on Saturday could not disguise the side's lack of inspiration in the creative areas.
With Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta providing the flow of passes for their forwards, Barcelona already have what United lack. Arsenal, of course, possess a superfluity of such players, including three of Saturday's absentees: Fábregas, Samir Nasri and Tomas Rosicky. For this vital early-season match against the London side, Ferguson relied on the 35-year-old Ryan Giggs to provide the creative spark behind his lone striker, Wayne Rooney.
Ferguson's occasional tactical eccentricity is part of his charm, but it was nevertheless astonishing to see Rooney left so obviously stranded for the first 45 minutes. On the way back from Old Trafford, a mental trawl through personal experience going back to the immediate post-Munich era threw up no examples of any United striker being so isolated. Rooney, as always, exploited his guile and worked his socks off to compensate for the lack of support, but United deserved to go in at half-time a goal down, and might have been dead and buried had Ben Foster not brilliantly saved an instinctive first-time shot by Robin van Persie, superbly set up by Andrey Arshavin, three minutes into the second half.
A few words from the boss saw United improve after the interval, Giggs getting closer to Rooney and the tempo speeding up. Even so they had to rely on a slightly questionable penalty – Sky's super-slo-mo showed that Rooney's knees were already buckling before he slid into the diving Manuel Almunia – and an own goal for their victory, which is good enough for three points but not really good enough for Manchester United.
The summer departures of Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tevez were always going to exact a price in terms of attacking flair, and it may be that Nani and the newcomers Antonio Valencia and Zoran Tosic will make the most of the opportunity. But United would look a more convincing proposition if they had a genuine playmaker patrolling the central areas, providing a base of continuity.
Ferguson's mastery of the transfer market ensures that his successful investments outnumber his failures, but they seem to be concentrated in certain areas. He likes acquiring strikers, second strikers, wingers and deep-lying midfield players. Apart from the two veterans of the 1992 Youth Cup-winning team, his current first-team midfield roster, excluding wingers, amounts to Michael Carrick, Darren Fletcher, Anderson, the inexperienced Darron Gibson and the unlucky Owen Hargreaves: none of them is either suited or ready to be a replacement for Paul Scholes as the player who dismantles a defence with a single pass and pops up to score 15 goals a season. Like Giggs, Scholes no longer has the legs for the job in the biggest matches.
Perhaps the unhappy and expensive experience with Juan Sebastián Verón undermined Ferguson's faith in playmakers. United's most impressive performances since that time have been achieved with a line-up in which aggressive midfield players such as Fletcher and Anderson create the platform on which out-and-out forwards can perform. The flowering of the partnership of Rooney, Ronaldo and Louis Saha during the French forward's injury-free autumn of 2006 was a typical, if short-lived, expression of that approach.
Ferguson's reluctance to acquire a player of the type of Luka Modric, Joe Cole, Deco or Stephen Ireland – not to mention any of the clusters on show at Barcelona or Arsenal – is particularly odd since the man he most regrets failing to acquire during his time at Old Trafford is Paul Gascoigne. But then we have to remember that Ferguson is also the man who decided not to bid for Zinedine Zidane from Bordeaux in 1996 because he and his scouts, having watched the Frenchman closely, could not decide on his best position.
Then again, perhaps that says something about Ferguson's approach to the job. Free spirits are not really to his taste, and are only acceptable when they can demonstrate an irreproachable attitude to preparation. And yet who, of all the players under his command in the past 23 years, has done more for him and for Manchester United than Eric Cantona and Ronaldo, two men who represented individualism in its most extreme form? On Saturday, for all Rooney's marvellous efforts, his side lacked the spark of genius – a commodity United's supporters have come to take for granted.
Sir Alex Ferguson needs a playmaker to release United's attacking flair | Sport | The Guardian
Well some truth in that column but most of it is bullshit
I'd agree with pretty much all of it, we are lacking serious creativity in midfield, we have the battle in Fletcher, but not much else.
I read that article and agreed with large swathes of it. That said, it's not a rocket scientist's observation now, is it?
Agreed.
Mozza has turned into a proper spastic. Let's hope Carrick doesn't do the same.
Carrick is having a good attempt at it
Anderson is talented enough to provide that midfield spark. Not sure why he is grouped with the likes of Fletch, Carrick and Hargreaves on that article above
I would like to see a Fletcher Anderson partnership. It is the future.
im not sure either of them has the passing range and playmaking ability of an in-form Carrick or a Scholes to accommodate our playstyle. Anderson has the potential to improve on that area of his game, but he needs to improve his decision making and accuracy.
Personally, we would operate best with a 3-man midfield, but none of our strikers are particularly good at playing as the lone forwards. Fletcher/Anderson/Rooney midfield anyone?
im not sure either of them has the passing range and playmaking ability of an in-form Carrick or a Scholes to accommodate our playstyle. Anderson has the potential to improve on that area of his game, but he needs to improve his decision making and accuracy.
Personally, we would operate best with a 3-man midfield, but none of our strikers are particularly good at playing as the lone forwards. Fletcher/Anderson/Rooney midfield anyone?
I don't know. As I said before, there aren't players around as good as Scholes once was. Anderson certainly has the potential to be a better passer than Carrick as Carrick's passing isn't actually that accurate. His decision making may improve. Fletcher needs a steady partner in the middle. Anderson has the potential to be the best midfielder at the club. Potential is one thing though, actually doing it is another.
Fletcher was outstanding yesterday and Carrick was far from his best.
IIRC he started poorly last season though and didnt really get going till around November.
Last season Carrick played 15 minutes in the Community Shield, came off injured after about 25 minutes against Newcastle and came off injured against Liverpool at half time. He didn't appear again until playing as a sub for the last 20 minutes against West Ham on the 29th of October so he had hardly played before November and setted back in quite well (with the exception of the Arsenal away where he didn't do too badly but Fletcher was clearly missed that day)
Anderson was brilliant yesterday, hopefully he gets into a run of form, because he injects so much pace and power in the midfield. He isnt afraid of any player either
I disagree.
He took his goal well and finished the game very strongly but for the first half hour i found my self screaming "Red, for feck sake Anderson. We're playing in Red!!"
I do think he will be a top notch player though, he's still very young.
That paragraph is utter bollocks
Yeah, that made no sense whatsoever.
Me too. Its down to Anderson to make it happen though. That central midfield berth alongside Fletcher is wide open right now. If he can develop some real consistency then its his for the taking. We'll be a better team for it if he manages it, as he's capable of genius if he can just master the more basic aspects of midfield play as well like Fletcher has. His lack of development has been frustrating to watch over the past year or so, but its moments like this that remind me that he's a potentially colossal midfield player. There's not many around with his ability to run with the ball with pace.
I've got no idea why people are rating Fletch's performance yesterday so highly. I've just watched the game again, and it confirmed my impression at the time that he did pretty much feck all of any note apart from a nice ball for Rooney's goal and a good last-ditch tackle.
Not his fault, he was played on the right wing and was decent. But this group delusion, where he's either hopeless or world class, seems now to have infected the whole Caf.
Scholes was great though, Giggs was too after a ropey start, Anderson came into it later though he gave the ball away continually in the first half. Carrick was shite in possession.
Not his fault, he was played on the right wing and was decent. But this group delusion, where he's either hopeless or world class, seems now to have infected the whole Caf.
Scholes was great though, Giggs was too after a ropey start, Anderson came into it later though he gave the ball away continually in the first half. Carrick was shite in possession.
I agree that his performance yesterday was nothing to be shouting from the roof tops about, but I don't think its delusional to say that he's at least bordering on world class now.
Shame that Tevez got a goal there Anderson should have taken it on and broke his duck then and there
This mostly.
I think that's a little too harsh. He wasn't as great as most on here seem to be saying, but he was still quite good.
Harry Redknapp singled out two United players for praise, Rooney and Fletcher. He might be a cockney chancer but he knows enough about football to recognise a good performance when he sees one.
This means that either the "group delusion" you mention has spread beyond the confines of the caf or Fletcher really did play as well as everyone on here said he did and you might need to re-evaluate your thoughts on his performance.
Actually Pogue, he mentioned more that two:.....................
should tell Berbatov he is facing Spurs every week.
Ronaldo’s move to Real Madrid means more individuals taking more responsibility. United always seemed to have someone available, always someone making a clever run into space. “Our one-touch play carved them open time and time again,’’ said Ferguson.
Ruefully, Redknapp agreed. “They always have options when they get the ball, there’s always movement. Berbatov is coming short, Rooney’s pulling into a position, the wide man is coming off the line into holes. It’s fantastic. So they always have someone to pop the ball off to. That’s why they have won Champions League.
“People had started to write United off and say Chelsea are going to win the championship. But United are going to be bang in there. See Rooney. He’s taken it on. He was the big star until Ronaldo came along and took him over, really. All the lads will step up to the plate and they will be strong again.
“When Rio [Ferdinand] plays it makes such a massive difference. Fletcher never stopped working in that wide position. Fletcher has made himself into a top player. Evra is a terrific defender and quick as lightning. Aaron got the better of him a couple of times which, truthfully, surprised me.’’
If United’s victory confirmed they were never a one-man team, however special Ronaldo was, Spurs’ first setback of the season should not trigger a gloomy prognosis. Wilson Palacios has brought some bite to midfield, Lennon and Defoe have stepped up a gear, Peter Crouch gives Spurs an aerial option but doubts continue in goal. Neither Cudicini nor Heurelho Gomes is a top keeper.
“I still think we can make the top four,’’ added Redknapp. “There’s Man City, Everton and Villa but it’s not impossible. I see United and Chelsea as the top two. It will be hard to overtake Arsenal and Liverpool but we’ll all have a go.’’
___________________________________
Nice to hear the praise for Fletch after Wenger's whining last week - often readily taken up by the meeja and becomes "fact" like tyhe Nevilles kicking them off the pitch a few yrears back
Guardian chalkboard stats on our midfield against Spurs.
Scholes
49 passes
96% completed
3 tackles attempted, 2 won
1 interception
Giggs
38 passes
67% completed
5 tackles attempted, 2 won
1 interception
Anderson
42 passes
74% completed
1 tackle attempted, 1 won
1 interception
Fletcher
40 passes
85% completed
9 tackles attempted, 7 won
1 interception
Carrick
16 passes
81% completed
2 tackles attempted, 0 won
0 interceptions
Y'all can draw your own conclusions.
Scholes
49 passes
96% completed
3 tackles attempted, 2 won
1 interception
Giggs
38 passes
67% completed
5 tackles attempted, 2 won
1 interception
Anderson
42 passes
74% completed
1 tackle attempted, 1 won
1 interception
Fletcher
40 passes
85% completed
9 tackles attempted, 7 won
1 interception
Carrick
16 passes
81% completed
2 tackles attempted, 0 won
0 interceptions
Y'all can draw your own conclusions.
in other words scholes ran the show. Giggs tried the most adventurous passes. Fletch played very well all round, Anderson was good and Carrick was only on the pitch for 30mins?