Neville was just poor all own his own.
Central midfield this season...
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Excellent thoughts
Personally I think it's a wingers thing. we don't have any at the moment and the ones we do have aren't capable of performing as well as our main 2, this limits the distribution of the ball to the wings and makes our natural style of play seem stifled. Without these wingers as well it is exposing our flanks at the back defensively as our left and right backs have push up as we've always done then find themselves to be the better option on the wings as there's no one there to either receive the ball or cover their runs.
The way we performed today has been happening all season no matter who the wingers are
It really hasn't. Our central midfield has basically gone through two different drops in form, for completely different reasons.
The first one was with Scholes and Fletch playing. They generally did well with the ball, but the opposition could walk through our midfield at will and get at our defence.
Then Carrick came back and our midfield instantly became more solid (also helped a lot by Rio's return at the same time). Anderson's resurgance was also a welcome improvement.
Then suddenly in the last two games our central midfield has instantly turned shit again. Coincidently, two games in which we had absolutely no width at all (except for a poor Obertan today) and the central area of the field gets ridiculously clogged up by both our own players and the opposition.
Like I mentioned in the Park thread, look at how much ball Obertan got when he was wide on the left today despite being very poor. Now imagine what one of Nani, Valencia, Park or Giggs could've done with that much ball out wide. Further, imagine having one of those players on each wing stretching play and giving our midfielders options to pass to.
Same thing happened at Villa where we started with Park and Nani and we had more possession. The midfield didn't suddenly turn to shit in the last 2 games, the teams not performing away from home and its not the flanks which are alone to blame
Telling United not to use the wings is like telling an Italian side not to defend or a Portuguese side not to dive. Its not in our DNA. We rely on wingers and that is why we need quality ones.
More to do with at times in the first half he had no one to pass too. Time and time again Carrick would pick up the ball and Anderson would just run in a straight line directly into traffic.
Quite often you saw him turn back and lay if off for a defender then derrating the rest of the team for not showing.
But does this setup show a lack of midfield strength?
No, the back 4 is sitting deep to prevent balls over the top hurting us, but that's making it easy for the opposition to hold possesion so they attack us more often
This is a fair point, we are all about the wingers, both in how we attack and defend.
Fletcher has been really poor so far, one of his worst seasons for United which is weird because he had a great season last term. He needs to get his act together so that we can start dominating away from home.
Main problem with central midfield today was tiredness. Carrick and Anderson have both played 3 games in 6 days and Fletcher just back from virus. If we had not had Scholes out injured and a wing crisis forcing Giggs to play two games in 4 days we would have shaped up very differently today and probably altered things against Brum.
I think we miss a dirty bastard. I think we're too easy to play against in the centre of the park because no one scares players. Today though our ball retention was as much a problem as any player as was our lack of desire to win the second balls. We did not protect the ball well enough
Good point.
And yep, and although we don't need an enforcer, but I'd like one.
There so bloody hard to find, the Keane's and Veira's of this world are as rare as the Messi's or Ronaldo's even more so maybe. They need so many right ingredients on the mental and defensive side of the game but also be able to play a bit, extremely hard to find.
Exactly.
Essien's the only player I can see who is close to this model of player and he's been around for a long time.
This situation is reflected in the type of midfield players we have which are common with most club sides. We have Carrick, a player whose main function is to protect the back four and keep the play ticking off but whose game is well rounded enough for him to to also get forward and link up with the attack.
We have Fletcher whose a box to box player who can defend and attack with equal measure but does not have the all round quality of a Keane. We have Scholes whose extremely gifted technically and who can dictate the tempo and play from midfield. We have Anderson who is extremely talented and really kicking on.
We also have Gibson, Giggs and Park who can all play in central midfield. All of these players offer SAF plenty of options, talent and variety but there is not a Keane or Robbo type player in that group of players. We lack a Mascherano or De Jong type enforcer but they are to limited to play for United.
I'm sure if Fergie could find a Keane he would gladly blood him into the side but they are very rare nowadays.
That's a good summary of the midfield at the moment, I'd agree 100% that we simply wouldn't have an out and out defensive midfielder, they would have to have that extra dimension to their game.
Fletcher and Rooney have been well below last season's form. One would expect them to improve at some point (Rooney is already showing signs). When that happens the midfield will be better at controlling games.
All the midfielders were poor yesterday. West Brom played us off the park in midfield.
I thought the whole team was poor, Berbatov lazy, losing the ball easily etc..
Obertan was lost, totally unconfident, lacked the final ball etc...
Fletcher isn't a RW, didn't play like one and it made us depend too much on Obertan.
Carrick - Ando wasn't that bad, but Ando tried too many through balls when they weren't giving us any advantage.
Back four... Neville and Rio lacked communication, WestBrom were attacking that space all the time and I have no idea why Neville was defending so far away from the CB's, he might be scared that the Albion's wingers had more pace, but that was a dismal performance, shades from the best RB in the world 4-5 years ago.
Obertan was lost, totally unconfident, lacked the final ball etc...
Fletcher isn't a RW, didn't play like one and it made us depend too much on Obertan.
Carrick - Ando wasn't that bad, but Ando tried too many through balls when they weren't giving us any advantage.
Back four... Neville and Rio lacked communication, WestBrom were attacking that space all the time and I have no idea why Neville was defending so far away from the CB's, he might be scared that the Albion's wingers had more pace, but that was a dismal performance, shades from the best RB in the world 4-5 years ago.
Our midfield was so sloppy against West Brom especially Carrick and Fletcher with all the lazy passes. They were daft at times. Rooney was the only one trying hard to make something happen. Our midfield was always trying to play passes on the ground yesterday. Why could they not have floated or chipped one above the defense for a change?
Why do some people continue to brand him lazy everytime he doesn't play well. Fair enough, he hasn't played well, but it's clearly not because he was lazy.
I think the fact we had Fletcher and Obertan on the wings had more to do with our poor performance yesterday than the centre. We're struggling without wingers atm.
Maybe not lazy but he did look really lethargic. Whenever he doesn't play well it really looks like he's been out on the piss the night before.
I think the biggest problem we have in midfield has been the constant rotation game after game, when you look at our most fluent attacking sides over the years the best first 11 trips off the tounge without pause, but due to the side not being allowed to settle and partnerships to form this is no longer the case, and has not been since Chelsea and Romans cash raised the bar, this season aside there isnt the margin for error there used to be.
I say it again, if anyone thinks we can win the CL with this midfield they are bloody deluded. I pray that this player SAF wants to sign can offer something more than sideways/backwards passes because I'm so tired of watching Fletcher and Carrick pass the ball like they are limited defenders with no vision.
Fletcher's passing wasn't good, but you can't say he was passing backwards/sideways. He was always looking for the penetrating ball today, as was demonstrated by the penalty.
Both are usually partnered with Scholes or Anderson, 2 players you cant fault for passing it sideways/backwards
We wont play with just those two in the middle in Europe. Anderson/Scholes will play with them and we'll look much stronger. That said, Fletcher's passing wasn't great today, but you can't fault Carrick's performance. His passing/positioning/use of the ball was fantastic, even when it was 11 against 11 (Liverpool stuck Meireles on Carrick before Gerrard's sending off). After that he had a bit more room and kept on using the ball intelligently. I think that once we brought Anderson on for Fletcher, we kept the ball much better and combined with Liverpool's fatigue, it allowed us to effectively see the game out.
Carrick's stats will always look good because he takes so few risks, today he made two or three inventive, penetrating balls but the vast majority were the kind of passes you'd expect a limited player to settle for. I find it so frustrating because when he actually takes a risk and tries to pass through the centre of the pitch it usually pays off. In my opinion he's just a player that naturally seems reluctant to drive the team forward and take on the responsibility of actually creating.
Fletcher on the other hand was just utterly dire today, he's having a very underwhelming season.
Agree with evra and I do think we still lack a really top quality creative midfielder. Scholes does the job for us but even he is rather one dimensional at the moment, and any decent coach would be telling their team to either close him down/mark him tightly or just stick someone onto him and that pretty much takes Scholes out of the game.
Anderson looks like he is starting to fulfil some of his potential again but he still has a way to go, and I dont know how much longer we can afford to wait.
Honestly, if we were to sign a CM along the lines of a Modric or Van der Vaart, it would make an absolutely huge difference to our team and give us so many more options for midfield.
Anderson looks like he is starting to fulfil some of his potential again but he still has a way to go, and I dont know how much longer we can afford to wait.
Honestly, if we were to sign a CM along the lines of a Modric or Van der Vaart, it would make an absolutely huge difference to our team and give us so many more options for midfield.
Why do people still, after 5 years, not understand Carrick's role in the team? It really is beyond me. He's not there to be our creative drive, his primary job is to provide a shield for the back four and once in possesion keep the ball by playing it to our more creative players, I.e Scholes, Rooney, Nani etc etc And if that means keeping it simple, but us keeping the ball, then I'm all for it. And fwiw it's a job he does brilliantly, it actually infuriates me to see how underrated his job is, and how well he carry's it out. Yes, he can play some fantastic passes here and there, and it's brilliant that he has that in his locker, but if he did that all the time, like some people seem to want him too, he'd be giving the ball away far more then he would be hitting his man. And then we'd have everyone on his back for not keeping it simple. At the end of the day, he's not Paul Scholes, he wont hit 90% + of those long killer passes. So its far more benifitial to the team that once he's won/intercepted the ball, he can keep the team in possesion by playing it to the more creative players. It may not be the most thrilling thing to watch, but its a bloody important role, that allows us to keep the ball and build attacks. Or would you rather he tried a Gerrard esq hollywood ball every time, and ended up losing us possesion 8 times out of 10?
As an aside, I wish Fletch would start playing it simple. He's in awful form and seems to be going for killer passes left right and centre. He needs to start doing the basics right again, and play himself back into form.
Carrick looks after the back four and uses the ball intelligently - I can't see how he can be criticised for this performance. There were other players that could've created more as Pogue said in another thread - Nani, Berbatov and Giggs are all capable of making things happen in the final third, and Giggs was the only player that performed well out of the three for the entire match. It was difficult to create much through the centre because it was very compact - but we used the wings well and Carrick played a part in that. He will never be Scholes or Xavi but he protects the back four well and his passing is good if not overly inventive. Maybe we need someone a bit more inventive in the future but Carrick shouldn't be criticised for not being that person - it's not really his game.
Like I said, we'll be playing Scholes/Anderson alongside both of them in Europe, so we'll look a much better outfit.
Great post!
What's the deal with people moaning about sideways and backwards passing all the time? Barcelona's whole strategy is half based on that, football's not always as simple as pass forward, pass forward, pass forward, goal.
I know you werent replying to me, but to answer this;
Carricks role in the side may not be creative, thats fair enough, but for me we need to have SOME kind of creative drive from the middle of the park rather than just on the wings, because Fletcher is most certainly not the creative type.
If neither Carrick nor Fletcher are capable of creativity then they shouldnt be starting together in a 4-4-2 in my eyes. We should either play a 5-man midfield or pair one of them up with Scholes/Anderson, although frankly if there was one position I would want us to sign a player in, it would be a creative midfielder (the likes of Van der Vaart, Modric, Sneijder or Schweinsteiger are/have been realistic options) because its something we desperately lack.
That isnt a criticism against the players so much as the selection.
I agree with this to an extent. At times we do lack a little creativety from the centre when Scholes isn't playing. However I really don't think we'll be signing anyone of that ilk anytime soon, as Fergie seems to have very high hopes that Anderson will become that player for us.
I can totally see where you're coming from, but just to play devils advocate and counter that, I'd argue that Fergie probably though that, against a rather poor Liverpool side, a front four of Nani, Giggs, Berbatov and Hernandez had enough about them to not need a Scholes/Anderson type player in the middle.
Yep, that's fair enough. I just find that a lot of posters on here are quick to slam Carrick for not being the type player they want him to be, rather then praise him for type of player that he is.
Very good post.Some people are crazy to expect too much from certain players