& some also expect too little. There is little doubt Carrick has chosen to play within himself more often than in the past. He hasn't yet regained his confidence of the 2007-2008 season, when he was flying. For naturally he is a creative holding player in the Xabi/Pirlo mould. Not a keep it simple one.
Central midfield this season...
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Our midfield will be found out soon, I fear. We can't play first gear hoofball football all season and expect to get away with it.
What game were you watching mate?
I think our central midfield is one of the best in Europe.
It's just my opinion. We lack creativity in the final third, and we let (on purpose?) average teams dominate our midfield (WBA, Birmingham, Stoke for example). We couldn't score a second goal against arguably the poorest Liverpool side that has come to OT in the last 15 years, creating very little whilst trying.
IF we continue playing the way we are, we're going to start losing games. IMO.
Agreed.
Top ten definitely.
I don't think there are any people on here arguing with that.
It surely is.
But I also think we could do with a bit of extra class in CM. We do lack creativity and drive at times.
We played like $hit today
And one of the most off form in terms of creative abilities.
Carrick is a phenomenal holding player. Only young Sergio is more impressive.
If Modric is added to our options, I think we will have an unstoppable central midfield.
If Modric is added to our options, I think we will have an unstoppable central midfield.
I think the performances he has put in the past month or so represents Carrick at something close to his best and to expect any more from him is unfair to the player.
As Sam said and I rate that post very highly, fans always overlook what Carrick does give to the side and with their unrealistic expectations miss out on the beauty of his play and are blinded by their own particular prejudices of what a perfect midfield player worthy of United should be capable of.
He is a fantastic defensive midfielder who is excellent at reading play and shielding the backline; he is strong in the tackle when he needs to be, very quick at eating up ground and usually intercepts the ball with the minimum of foss and can distribute it with either foot to a player close to him in space. He is even on occasion capable of executing long passes to wide players in space and switching the play when he needs to.. but this is where the problem of how United fans misunderstand Carrick rises to the surface. They think just because he can hit these passes in certain situations that he should be capable of being a Fabregas-like player capable of running a game with his brilliant passing technique and vision... the same goes for your expectation of him matching the likes of Xabi Alonso and Pirlo.. the latter in my opinion more of a Fabregas type passer than just purely a deep lying metronomic playmaker in the mould of a Xabi Alonso.
What stops him from being like these players? well its simple and many people overlook it, its his dribbling ability (ball manipulation) or dare I say lack of it which prevents him from being such a magnificent playmaker of the highest calibre... whereas Alonso and Pirlo despite being slow players are capable of shielding the ball under pressure, turning a man and creating space in which they can execute forward passes consistently, Carrick struggles in tight games to do this and has been heavily criticised.
However what Carrick possesses over these players is that he is a superior defensive player and doesn't need a defensive-minded player alongside him to compensate for his lack of defensive-discipline/lack of pace because he IS that defensive player. He'd be a great partner for either of these players, well an early Xabi Alonso and more specifically Pirlo in his pomp.
He knows his limitations but even with those flaws that prevent him from playing further forward, he is a top class defensive midfielder and as long as people can appreciate that they will find no fault in Carricks performances and realise that its the likes of Anderson who need to step up and claim the creative midfield berth in the side.. driving the team forward and let Carrick play his natural game.
Our side could do with one more creative midfielder, taking into account that Scholesy will no longer be with us.. that is either through promotion from within or scouting the market for genuine class capable of running a midfield for a club of United's level, whether or not that happens I hope Carrick is not hounded for problems which are not his fault and that this misperception of his poor form is still not haunting the caf.
The infuriating thing for me with our midfield is that it seems to painfully obvious the one component we lack - which is a Modric/Van der Vaart/Sneijder type of player. Someone creative and attacking minded who ideally can play in 4-4-2 or a trio. Its like Arsenal needing a keeper or Liverpool needing an outfield team. That obvious.
I understand Fergie has wanted to show faith in Anderson and Hargreaves but surely with the latter being a write off at this stage, coupled with the retirement of Scholes and Giggs, the time has come where we have no real option other than to buy someone in of proven quality rather than putting all of our faith into youngsters?
I understand Fergie has wanted to show faith in Anderson and Hargreaves but surely with the latter being a write off at this stage, coupled with the retirement of Scholes and Giggs, the time has come where we have no real option other than to buy someone in of proven quality rather than putting all of our faith into youngsters?
Possession is the name of the game. If you can't appreciate that, I'm sorry. Many don't. It's sad.
Excellent post. Not a single point i'd disagree with. Well said that man.
Carrick bashing is a seriously retarded pursuit.
Football is actually the name of the game, and it is won by scoring goals, not by possession alone. In the past few years our biggest strength has been to let the opponent come and attack us, and tear them apart with counterattacks, NOT possession football a-la Barca or Arsenal.
Having said that, I was a big supporter of the idea of us not playing so heavily on the counter, since so many teams didnt come and attack us in the first place, but it is obvious that we still struggle at breaking teams down with possession. We play best at a high tempo, quick passing or balls forward, rather than a slow paced buildup.
Today we played possession for 90 minutes (After the penalty) and we scored nothing. You can argue that we didnt NEED to score, only defend our lead, but realistically we shouldnt be sitting on a 1-0 scoreline and trying to defend, it is far too risky, as shown by the amount of points we have dropped this season through late goals by our opponents. At 1-0 either we need to sit back and play on the counter, or to try to play some more attacking, penetrative football (especially when the opponents are a man down) and get a second goal to give us some breathing space.
Liverpool may not have created much against us today, but if we play like that against a half decent team then they would get opportunities, and if one of those is put away then a win becomes a draw, and we didnt really look like creating much else ourselves.
Believe me I understand the importance of possession football in the modern game, I just want our central midfield to contribute something more than just shifting the ball out to our full-backs or wingers on the halfway line. We're one of, if not the biggest club in world football and I don't see why we shouldn't have a central midfield as creative as Barcelona's.
clearly, possession is not the name of the game, otherwise Arsenal would win the league year after year. Some people are drunk on Barcelona
Xavi and Scholes do that all the time too.
How wrong is that? Seriously, you are wrong at so many leves. Just because Barcelona plays to keep the ball it doesn't mean is the only way of playing football or the only way of being successful.
Are you aware that Inter just won the treble last season?
One thing i do not like about Anderson is his unwillingness to go to spaces and be available for a pass...
Many times i noticed today.. he would just sit in the center circle and wait for the vall to arrive... and at one time, when Rafael and carrick had the ball towards the right.. he waited in the center circle standstill until the ball arrived to his feet....
Unless he regularly goes to make himself available for the balls.. , I doubt he will reach the next level...
Many times i noticed today.. he would just sit in the center circle and wait for the vall to arrive... and at one time, when Rafael and carrick had the ball towards the right.. he waited in the center circle standstill until the ball arrived to his feet....
Unless he regularly goes to make himself available for the balls.. , I doubt he will reach the next level...
I completely agree. That is one of my main gripes with Anderson.
One of the best in Europe, would that suggest top 5? I wouldn't say so. We're a good team but central midfield is our weakest position.
Barcelona
Real
Chelsea?
Arsenal?
Spurs?
Inter?
Can't think of any other team with central midfield decent enough to rank above us.
Barca, Real, Chelsea, Arsenal, Inter certainly, which would not make us in the top 5 midfields.
We have very good forwards and defenders though.
We have very good forwards and defenders though.
I disagree. At Spurs he reguarly put in his 2007-2008 level peformances all the time for them. It's the reason why we bought him. Right now its a confidence thing. His confidence isnt back to the levels pre that Barca game. This notion that he is only there to make other creative players shine is not Carrick's thing. Carrick is a natural deep lying playmaker. Once our form improves collectively as a team and stays more consistent, his confidence will reach the level its supposed to be at easier. I've no doubt too many of Carrick's fans underestimate his creative abilities.
Then you simply didn't watch Carrick at Spurs often or pay close attention to what he did for us in 2007-2008. When he first arrived he was just finding his feet. That is why he left all the creating to Scholes. But in 2007-2008 his true self came to the fore. That season he was every bit as good as Xabi Alonso was in his last season at Liverpool creatively. Even when paired with Scholes.
That is why you don't understand it when I tell you Carrick is similar to Pirlo. You think I' m saying Carrick = Pirlo. When what I'm actually saying is he plays the same role. That of the deep lying plamaker, who is also a holding player. The role that was Redondo's forte back in the day. Carrick and our midfield are not at their best yet. Right now Carrick is in the
best run of form he has been in in ages. But both he and the rest our midfield can step up much further. Anyone who thinks for example that Carrick was at his ''brillaint best'' last night, is simply insulting the player for me. The way Carrick is currently playing for the msot part is only truly usefull in a 4-3-3. In a 4-4-2 its too unimaginative and uncreative. It leaves too much of the creative burden on the wide men, which further reduces space operate in midield when they have a bad game or when they are marked out of a game.
I mean, just remember the Blackburn game or the recent Sunderland match. That is Carrick at his best. He and Anderson were playing probing football and keeping posession. He run things from deeper than Anderson and it was devastating in its effect. I have no doubt Carrick can play at that level in most games
Spot on
I'd put a question mark over Arsenal's and Inter's superiority over us. We don't make Arsenal our personal bitches by having inferior CMs, and Fabregas is the only one in their CM ranks that I would see as an improvement on what we have (will have). Inter is another questionable one imo, even though with Sneijder and Cambiasso leading them to a Treble last season, I might begrudgingly admit that our CMs might not be as good as theirs.
Our defence/keeper shits on Arsenal's, think that was the difference
It's not like this aspect of his game has completely disappeared.He's shown some passing this season albeit not at the same level of his years
The reason we brought him was to provide Scholes with a partner capable of feeding him with regular possession and someone who could do the defensive work in a two-man midfield partnership. Granted there were expectations he could also be a deputy playmaker if we needed him to be in lesser games and that if Scholes was absent he could run games for us.
He was better than Xabi Alonso of 08/09 in a creative sense? In 07/08 we had the perfect variety in midfield and the likes of Carrick and Hargreaves provided a great defensive platform for the likes of Anderson and primarily Scholes to run games, especially in the big games - check games from our CL run and games v the top four.
Carrick at Spurs was capable of being a playmaker at WHL but that is not on the same level as the level of creative midfield play we expect at a side like United. United's greatest playmakers.. those who have helped us win the CL's include the likes of Charlton and Scholes, Carrick doesn't bear talking about alongside these fellas in the playmaking stakes.. what he can do however is in good form run games at League level against most sides. Europe or big four games, we generally struggle to retain possession where Carrick is expected to be our most competent passer/playmaker. His true self is that of 06/07 and thats what I believe we're seeing from him again.. for him to be at his best against the best, he needs superior players around him in a creative/ball carrying sense, so that he has an easy outlet to find under pressure and that colleague can break the lines of midfield and allow us to maintain a forward momentum in possession. He's a hybrid DM/CM.. against run of the mill league opponents, he can play adequetely as a playmaker alongside someone defensive like Fletcher/Gibson, but to place such a burden on him against tough sides who are decent in possession and press high up the pitch is risky and more likely than not.. we see one of those poor United displays where we scrape a win and then Carrick recieves the main brunt of criticism. Time and time again that has happened since 08/09.
Pirlo and Redondo? what seperates these greats from Carrick in a forward-thinking sense i.e. the playmaker aspect.. I'll tell you, its footwork. Those two possessed sublime skill on the ball for players who featured deep. They can take on men and shield the ball under pressure, which allowed them to utilise their vision and feel confident in their ability further up the pitch.
Carrick doesn't possess the footwork to make this step and thus left alone as a defensive midfielder, he can still perform to a top class level but when forced to also step up and try to run a game, the lack of space kills him because he is fearful of carrying the ball through midfield, hence why he is seen to pass the ball back alot under pressure.
Give him a good partner and he cuts out the backwards passing and has an easy forward/side option knowing fully well that there is no responsibility on him to get the team playing attacking football. This in turn makes him play without pressure and he adds some attacking elements naturally to his usually reliable defensive display.
Sunderland/Blackburn.. he can run games at that level, I agree if he's very confident, no reason why he can't do that even without the help of Anderson. But he cannot do that against the toughest teams in Europe, he needs help.. Scholes/Anderson need him and vice versa. Excellent DM but cannot be relied upon to run games at elite european level and dominate/control possession. One of the reasons why he hasn't featured at National Level has been the dirth of playmakers in the English game, the likes of Lampard/Gerrard wouldn't have been good partners for Carrick and instead he's been the one to miss out for their failings.
A Scholes-Carrick-Gerrard trio, would've been pretty darned good.. but we've had clueless or should I say blinded by reputation managers who don't have the first idea of what makes a midfield tick and retain possession against highly technical opponents.
Here's a piece I wrote on my blog regarding Carrick - I think it's a good read to show excactly what he brings to the table as a CM. Some of it should(but isn't, apparently) be blindingly obvious but there are som subtle details his way of playing the game offers our midfield that one should consider as well.
The Noggie Rants
The Noggie Rants
Exactly. I believe with in the next few months he shall do it consistently.
Totally wrong. Carrick was brought to add experience and class to our midfield. To be a second player who could hold his own alongside Scholes. Things like feeding Scholes with regular possesion didn't come into reckoning. We;d never have also gone for Hargreaves at the same time if Carrick was bought merely to play second fiddle to Scholes. We bought Carrick because he had the very game Keane ahd pre-the hip injury,minus the robustness. A player capable of protecting our defence from midfield while being a creative passer. His first season of settling in, that forced him to mainly play second fiddle to Scholes fooled many into beliveing that is the type of player you described. When he isnt that type. His performances of the 2007-08 season and those of the 2008-2009 season before that fateful Barca game are more of what he is like. A deep lying playmaker.
That's not what I said. Rather I said he was every bit as good. That season Carrick played many games alongside Fletcher and the vast majority where highs scoring games with us romping the opposition. He was also just as creative alongside Scholes and Anderson. Contributing us playing the type of football that won us a league and cup double. The cup being in Europe. Many of Ronaldo's goals that year came from play he helped conduct. He wasn't merely playing second fiddle playmaker. He was a full fledge deep lying playmaker, whilst Scholes, Giggs and Anderson were the more advanced ones.
Are you serious? If Carrick's playmaking skills where not to the required level he wouldn't have been bought. I assure you. He was brought in to replace Keane's passing game in our midfield. A player who had been our playmaker for years before his hip injury that made him leave that job to Scholes, becoming a more conservative holding player.
Neither does a Xabi Alonso. Deep lying playmaking is totally different from attacking play making that the likes of Charlton and Scholes are masters at.
I've never seen us struggle with possession in Europe when Carrick has been in form and paired with a player like Fletcher. Infact performances like that dominant one at the San Siro vs Inter for example, or our controlled game vs Valencia earlier this season have been the norm. Even vs Arsenal despite being in a midfield 3 its he who run the game in the deep lying playmaker role.
Never ever. That was merely Carrick finding his feet at united. "007-208 he reproduced his Spurs A game for us. The type of game play that made us sign him up.
Rather what separates him from them is natural talent. They are simply more talented than he. So naturally their playmaking is superior. That doesn't make him any less of a play maker. The same way Zidane being a better playmaker than Pirlo doesn't make Pirlo a lesser playmaker than he is.
He did it vs Inter in 2008. Vs Roma both in 2007 and 2008 4 times. Vs Arsenal to in the semi's. I insist people grossly underestimate the lads attacking abilities. He is currently cagey only because he is rediscovering his best form. Soon and very soon Carrick is gonna shock you folks again by returning to his 2007 2008 form.
For a minute there I thought I'd get away safely but nothing escapes the attention of the Chief.
The performances we have seen from him in the big games is that of a midfielder who is more than capable of protecting the defence from midfield and is capable of producing creative passes when he has the opportunity to do so. The operative phrase being 'when he has the opportunity to do so'. Give him the right partner capable of shouldering the creative and ball-carrying burden and despite his primary job consisting of reading the game, breaking up play and distributing effeciently.. he will have the space and time to be pretty creative as well. He is then allowed to play more freely and without pressure (less chance of him getting caught on the ball)...
We were wretched to watch in 08/09 and the absence of a top class creative midfielder in form and injury free led to us relying heavily on our top class defence and world class forward line. We rarely dominated teams in possession and that 5-2 performance against Spurs was one of the few times we sparked and played any football resembling United at our best. Carrick is decent as a deep lying playmaker but not great enough in that position for a club the calibre of United (capable of winning the CL). We struggled against Porto in the first leg until Anderson came into the side and provided some much needed drive and ball carrying ability, which allowed Carrick to play his natural game (excellent defensive work combined with solid distribution with the occasional flourish). This continued into 09/10 where we were poor again until the end of the season where Scholes' form picked up and we looked something like United at our best.
During both these seasons it was Carrick getting unnecessary stick due to him having to fill roles and duties he was clearly uncomfortable with.. he was out of his depth as a playmaker and needed the likes of Scholes/Anderson to get him out of this supposed malaise.
He's capable of being a deep lying playmaker in the vast majority of games, in this I don't disagree with you. But there is a certain level to which he can perform this role, as he has a higher performance capacity as a defensive midfielder.
Carrick has playmaking skills, this I do not deny. But he doesn't possess world class playmaking skills, he can't operate on the same level as the other players you've mentioned as a playmaker.. he can however match these players/complement them as a defensive midfielder with the freedom to play creative passes rather than placing a heavy burden on him to be creative.
Xabi Alonso can run games to a higher level but he lacks Carricks defensive prowess and athletic ability in terms of tracking back.. hence why Alonso required more defensive-minded players like Mascherano and Busquets for Spain. Carrick is an English Busquets at his best, and thats where he plays best against top top opponents.. he can do an Alonso job against run of the mill opposition but to hand him the task of doing that for United and for the National side would be beyond him and a poor use of the talents he does possess.
Seriously? we generally seemed to be relying on keeping it tight and then getting a goal through an explosive direct composition of football rather than relying on a constant production line of chances manufactured through our superior possession.
Don't get me wrong, very effective and I was happy enough with those performances especially that Inter game but we weren't at our best as a team especially in that Valencia game. That inter game, Carrick was given alot of space and in Italian football in the state it was then (Jose still getting to grips with that Inter side) Carrick would easily be that leagues best deep lying playmaker. Against Barca an actual tough side who were well drilled and excellent in possession, the game was too fast for him and his lack of footwork for a playmaker was exposed.
It does make him less of a playmaker, purely because they can perform that role against any given opponents and in any situation.. doesn't mean they'll win every game but you can rely on those two to stamp their authority on a game and to control/construct quality possession for their side. They would love however to have Carrick as a partner in charge of shielding the defence and feeding them with the ball I'm sure of it.
Roma were not a top top side and Inter were still very much in transition. He proved he can run games in certain circumstances where the opponents are of a decent level and he is given space however against a tough side, proven quality opposition.. he is better in a deeper role, allied with creative ball carriers who deflect attention off him and allow him to play his natural defensive-orientated game with the freedom to attack when he wants to.
The performances we have seen from him in the big games is that of a midfielder who is more than capable of protecting the defence from midfield and is capable of producing creative passes when he has the opportunity to do so. The operative phrase being 'when he has the opportunity to do so'. Give him the right partner capable of shouldering the creative and ball-carrying burden and despite his primary job consisting of reading the game, breaking up play and distributing effeciently.. he will have the space and time to be pretty creative as well. He is then allowed to play more freely and without pressure (less chance of him getting caught on the ball)...
We were wretched to watch in 08/09 and the absence of a top class creative midfielder in form and injury free led to us relying heavily on our top class defence and world class forward line. We rarely dominated teams in possession and that 5-2 performance against Spurs was one of the few times we sparked and played any football resembling United at our best. Carrick is decent as a deep lying playmaker but not great enough in that position for a club the calibre of United (capable of winning the CL). We struggled against Porto in the first leg until Anderson came into the side and provided some much needed drive and ball carrying ability, which allowed Carrick to play his natural game (excellent defensive work combined with solid distribution with the occasional flourish). This continued into 09/10 where we were poor again until the end of the season where Scholes' form picked up and we looked something like United at our best.
During both these seasons it was Carrick getting unnecessary stick due to him having to fill roles and duties he was clearly uncomfortable with.. he was out of his depth as a playmaker and needed the likes of Scholes/Anderson to get him out of this supposed malaise.
He's capable of being a deep lying playmaker in the vast majority of games, in this I don't disagree with you. But there is a certain level to which he can perform this role, as he has a higher performance capacity as a defensive midfielder.
Carrick has playmaking skills, this I do not deny. But he doesn't possess world class playmaking skills, he can't operate on the same level as the other players you've mentioned as a playmaker.. he can however match these players/complement them as a defensive midfielder with the freedom to play creative passes rather than placing a heavy burden on him to be creative.
Xabi Alonso can run games to a higher level but he lacks Carricks defensive prowess and athletic ability in terms of tracking back.. hence why Alonso required more defensive-minded players like Mascherano and Busquets for Spain. Carrick is an English Busquets at his best, and thats where he plays best against top top opponents.. he can do an Alonso job against run of the mill opposition but to hand him the task of doing that for United and for the National side would be beyond him and a poor use of the talents he does possess.
Seriously? we generally seemed to be relying on keeping it tight and then getting a goal through an explosive direct composition of football rather than relying on a constant production line of chances manufactured through our superior possession.
Don't get me wrong, very effective and I was happy enough with those performances especially that Inter game but we weren't at our best as a team especially in that Valencia game. That inter game, Carrick was given alot of space and in Italian football in the state it was then (Jose still getting to grips with that Inter side) Carrick would easily be that leagues best deep lying playmaker. Against Barca an actual tough side who were well drilled and excellent in possession, the game was too fast for him and his lack of footwork for a playmaker was exposed.
It does make him less of a playmaker, purely because they can perform that role against any given opponents and in any situation.. doesn't mean they'll win every game but you can rely on those two to stamp their authority on a game and to control/construct quality possession for their side. They would love however to have Carrick as a partner in charge of shielding the defence and feeding them with the ball I'm sure of it.
Roma were not a top top side and Inter were still very much in transition. He proved he can run games in certain circumstances where the opponents are of a decent level and he is given space however against a tough side, proven quality opposition.. he is better in a deeper role, allied with creative ball carriers who deflect attention off him and allow him to play his natural defensive-orientated game with the freedom to attack when he wants to.
I'm really sick of how under-rated our central midfield is on the Caf? Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher and Anderson are all quality players and we have very good depth with squad players like Gibson and versatile players like Park and Giggs with also plenty of talented young players coming through the ranks or on loan. I said during the summer when the much vaunted creative midfielder was an obsession of the transfer forum that if Anderson and Carrick found some form after last year our needs in this area were effectively sorted for the year and thus far that is what has happened. Now, I'd take Barca and Real's over United's central midfielders but no one else which should demonstrate we have one of the best set of midfield players in Europe.
This is a centre midfield which has taken United to 20 games undefeated in the league, undefeated in the CL and one defeat in the Carling cup when we played the B team. This is during a season when our normally reliable defence has been abit more vulnerable than usual and we have had our best attacking player out for most of the season and one of our most productive wingers out for most of the season. We have also beaten every single big club we have played this season aside from City, where we were the better side.
Yet, if one of the customary scapegoats is out of the side for abit(e.g. JOS or Evans, Gibson) and last season's boo boys are turning it on(e.g. Nani and Berba), then the default position is to criticise our central midfield.
What makes this more annoying is that the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal have supposedly stronger central midfielders than us. Let's take Chelsea first.
They had an extremely strong set of midfielders two or three years ago when Lampard was at his peak, Ballack was a top player, Makelele was still a very good player and they had a powerhouse like Essien with Mikel in reserve. That midfield was stronger than United but they are nothing like that now.
They have an aging Lampard, an injury prone and inconsistent Essien and Mikel and Ramires. There is no way I would swap what we have with them, let alone consider them as stronger. Lampard was and still is a top player but he's coming to the end of his career and despite Essien's reputation can anyone tell me the last consistently good season he had? As for Mikel and Ramires, all four of regular starting midfield players are superior to them. They would be dismissed as average if they were United players.
This is borne out by the fact that Chelsea are struggling in the league and close to out of the title race. These are not the results of a midfield stronger than United's which to me is bloody obvious.
As for Arsenal, we outperform them comfortably every season when we play them in. United have won 5 out of the last six and are undefeated in this run of games. We have won at the Emirates comfortably 3-1 in the last two times we have played them and finish above them year in and year out. Our midfield routinely outperforms them in these games and yet there are posters who see their midfield as stronger. Well I don't and Fabregas aside I would not rate any of their midfield players ahead of our main starting four and until they start giving us more of a game in the centre of the park, I would not change this opinion.
I'm not saying our midfield could not be improved but there's no way it is as big a problem as the Caf suggests, or we would be struggling for a title challenge, not leading the league and looking like one of the better sides in the CL.
This is a centre midfield which has taken United to 20 games undefeated in the league, undefeated in the CL and one defeat in the Carling cup when we played the B team. This is during a season when our normally reliable defence has been abit more vulnerable than usual and we have had our best attacking player out for most of the season and one of our most productive wingers out for most of the season. We have also beaten every single big club we have played this season aside from City, where we were the better side.
Yet, if one of the customary scapegoats is out of the side for abit(e.g. JOS or Evans, Gibson) and last season's boo boys are turning it on(e.g. Nani and Berba), then the default position is to criticise our central midfield.
What makes this more annoying is that the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal have supposedly stronger central midfielders than us. Let's take Chelsea first.
They had an extremely strong set of midfielders two or three years ago when Lampard was at his peak, Ballack was a top player, Makelele was still a very good player and they had a powerhouse like Essien with Mikel in reserve. That midfield was stronger than United but they are nothing like that now.
They have an aging Lampard, an injury prone and inconsistent Essien and Mikel and Ramires. There is no way I would swap what we have with them, let alone consider them as stronger. Lampard was and still is a top player but he's coming to the end of his career and despite Essien's reputation can anyone tell me the last consistently good season he had? As for Mikel and Ramires, all four of regular starting midfield players are superior to them. They would be dismissed as average if they were United players.
This is borne out by the fact that Chelsea are struggling in the league and close to out of the title race. These are not the results of a midfield stronger than United's which to me is bloody obvious.
As for Arsenal, we outperform them comfortably every season when we play them in. United have won 5 out of the last six and are undefeated in this run of games. We have won at the Emirates comfortably 3-1 in the last two times we have played them and finish above them year in and year out. Our midfield routinely outperforms them in these games and yet there are posters who see their midfield as stronger. Well I don't and Fabregas aside I would not rate any of their midfield players ahead of our main starting four and until they start giving us more of a game in the centre of the park, I would not change this opinion.
I'm not saying our midfield could not be improved but there's no way it is as big a problem as the Caf suggests, or we would be struggling for a title challenge, not leading the league and looking like one of the better sides in the CL.
I think your being harsh. VS Barca he was screwed over by Andrerson and Giggs being utterly woefull. He ways putting out fires all over the place whilst trying at the same time to create things. Which forced him to try creating things from so deep that he ended up playing long balls all the time. As good a passer as he is he isnt a long ball merchant ala Pirlo or Beckham. No wonder he suffered some sort of PTSD psot that game
Roam where challenging for the Seria A when we hammered them 4 times and Inter were Serie A champs. Besides, the following season we spent time controling teams, ratehr than dominating them, old school Serie A style. When it comes to the Porto game you mentioned, in that first leg we were off form as a team. Second leg we controlled them totally without ever becoming superb to wipe the floor with 'em. I personally believe Carrick will return to his 2007-2008 form. The signs were there vs Sunderland and Blackburn.
Hm, I never noticed that, to be honest. Maybe it's his stamina, which needs to improve.
What I like about Anderson is his willingness to get the ball and advance into open spaces. He just gets the ball and runs forward. I love it
Carrick, fletcher and Anderson are all good Players. The problem, and the thing I feel we lack, is a real world class 'talisman' player in the middle, something which pretty much every other team has - fabregas, gerrard, essien/lampard, sneijder, xavi/iniesta etc someone who would be supplemented by our 'good' players. This is less of a problem in a 4-3-3 as it is in 4-4-2 where it is hard to find a pairing of our current midfielders that doesn't have a glaring weakness, eh against Liverpool we had no creativity in the middle of the park. If Anderson can step up and carrick gets back to his best, those two are probably our best and most balanced combo, but there are a lot of ifs.