CFR Cluj v Manchester United

Feed Me said:
We concede a lot of control in Europe to even average teams these days because of our insistance on playing 4-4-2. It's not the formation that's the problem but, as you say, the fact that we don't have the personnel to play it effectively. We're embarrassingly easy to play through in that system.
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Yeah you're always going to concede something against decent teams playing a 442. Even if you argue that Rooney r kagawa play deeper they don't play that much deeper, not deep enough to be attacking mids in our system.

I think the worst thing though is that whilst beyond fletcher there isn't an ideal partner for carrick I think we're confounding the situation as much as possible. Playing giggs and scholes in the same game could be an issue, could be fine but playing them in a 442 in roles that demand the maximum amount of energy, honestly is baffling and subsequently burdens us defensively and offensively and puts to much strain on the likes of carrick. Anderson has his issues but he gives you the best balance of midfield understanding and physical ability, but more then that his and clevs falling a are due to a lack of experience and they can only overcome that with games and I really think that whilst they're fit we should include them as much as possible and use scholes and giggs as safety nets if they struggle.
 
Feed Me said:
I was responding to a specific quote that had been copied above by Nick 0208 Ldn - the bit about Anderson not being given more of a chance because of Scholes and Carrick being in good form, and us needing to play wingers.

It seems like the entire world is aware of our problems except the management. The chasing we were given by Spurs on Saturday was an embarrassment.

Carrick didn't bother turning up, while Scholes is an impediment to us blooding the likes of Anderson and Cleverley. It's frustrating that SAF doesn't see it in the same way as far as I'm concerned.

I worry - sure I'm not the only one - that Scholes, Carrick and Giggs being rested for Cluj means they'll feature against Newcastle. If they all do, we'll get battered.
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It seems that SAF's vision is something like this: have two static midfielders who have little energy and pace but can ping the ball out wide all the time; then the wingers can pump cross after cross into a highly mobile attacking force that relishes passes to feet.

It's a vision that doesn't suit the squad at all, predictable, leaves us open defensively but it seems he's going to persist with it. We might win a trophy this season but it's not gonna be pretty and we'll be frustrated more often than not. Our best hope is the "win despite playing badly" scenario in most cases I'm afraid.
 
Siorac said:
It seems that SAF's vision is something like this: have two static midfielders who have little energy and pace but can ping the ball out wide all the time; then the wingers can pump cross after cross into a highly mobile attacking force that relishes passes to feet.

It's a vision that doesn't suit the squad at all, predictable, leaves us open defensively but it seems he's going to persist with it. We might win a trophy this season but it's not gonna be pretty and we'll be frustrated more often than not. Our best hope is the "win despite playing badly" scenario in most cases I'm afraid.
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Very harsh we have a great squad capable of winning the league we have really strengthened the starting 11 with RVP and Kagawa plus Vidic being back and added depth with Butner and Powell. We lost the league on goal difference people have been spoiled watching United.
 
SAFs quote about Carrick and Scholes and the desire to always pay wide men (and probably also referring to Giggs as one) are a bit worrying indeed
 
Lawman said:
Very harsh we have a great squad capable of winning the league we have really strengthened the starting 11 with RVP and Kagawa plus Vidic being back and added depth with Butner and Powell. We lost the league on goal difference people have been spoiled watching United.
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But what was the point of signing Kagawa if we insist on the Carrick-Scholes pair and on focusing wing play above all? It's a credit to his quality that he's still useful despite our quite stupid approach to football games but it's a monumental waste of his talents. And Van Persie's main strength isn't getting on the end of crosses either.

And again, if Fergie seriously believes there's nothing with playing the Carrick-Scholes pairing all the time, then we're in for a lot of trouble.
 
Worst thing is that as much as i want to see ando and clev play today, its certain it'l be back to scholes and carrick vs Newcastle which will be see us getting overrun again in midfield.
 
Lawman said:
Very harsh we have a great squad capable of winning the league we have really strengthened the starting 11 with RVP and Kagawa plus Vidic being back and added depth with Butner and Powell. We lost the league on goal difference people have been spoiled watching United.
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Neither of whom we're utilizing anywhere close to their best. RVP's strengths doesnt lie in getting to the end of crosses. We do play through the middle too but to get the best out of him and Kagawa, we need more support from central areas which players like Ando and Clev will give not Scholes/Giggs.
 
Siorac said:
And again, if Fergie seriously believes there's nothing with playing the Carrick-Scholes pairing all the time, then we're in for a lot of trouble.
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Looks like SAF is going to play them on Sunday so far! Lets just hope that he puts Fletcher behind them, or drops Carrick back to screen the defense and brings in Ando or Clev.

The most worrying thing is that SAF has said that 'not many dominate Carrick and Scholes in midfield'. He also mysteriously said of our shocking first half performance against Spurs 'we seemed to be playing against the wind'. Is the wind a metaphor for father time?

All the signs are that SAF thinks that the formation and the personnel are just fine, it is just that the players are not doing it right.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Looks like SAF is going to play them on Sunday so far! Lets just hope that he puts Fletcher behind them, or drops Carrick back to screen the defense and brings in Ando or Clev.

The most worrying thing is that SAF has said that 'not many dominate Carrick and Scholes in midfield'. He also mysteriously said of our shocking first half performance against Spurs 'we seemed to be playing against the wind'. Is the wind a metaphor for father time?

All the signs are that SAF thinks that the formation and the personnel are just fine, it is just that the players are not doing it right.
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In 2009/10 Sir Alex seemed to recognise that in the big games e.g. Champions League last 16 and last 8 it was best to go 4-3-3 with Rooney as the false 9 because we needed to pad out the midfield.

3 years later Fergie's first choice midfielders are even less mobile, even less powerful and yet the only time we've seen 4-3-3 this season was in the League Cup. It is confusing.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Looks like SAF is going to play them on Sunday so far! Lets just hope that he puts Fletcher behind them, or drops Carrick back to screen the defense and brings in Ando or Clev.
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Not bloody likely.

I expect a Nani, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Van Persie front six at St. James' Park, with Kagawa on the bench. Because you need "experience" in these games. Or something like that.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Worst thing is that as much as i want to see ando and clev play today, its certain it'l be back to scholes and carrick vs Newcastle which will be see us getting overrun again in midfield.
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I fear you may be right, but the match is on a Tuesday and Newcastle is a Sunday therefore they have plenty of time to recover for the next game. Gives them a great chance to impress for the Newcastle game.
 
------------- De Gea ---------------
Rafael ---- Rio ---- Evans --- Buttner
-------------- Fletcher -------------
------ Clev ------------ Ando ------
Nani ----------------------- Welbeck
------------- Rooney ---------------

This team would do the work.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Neither of whom we're utilizing anywhere close to their best. RVP's strengths doesnt lie in getting to the end of crosses. We do play through the middle too but to get the best out of him and Kagawa, we need more support from central areas which players like Ando and Clev will give not Scholes/Giggs.
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They're less than a dozen games into their careers here. You can't expect instant success. The way we play will naturally evolve as we get more used to them and the way they play, positions they take up etc.

There seems to be a move on here to think wingers are rubbish and that no top team needs them. Which is nonsense. If we get the personnel right and get players in form our wingers can be devastating. It's just about finding the blend.
 
Brophs said:
They're less than a dozen games into their careers here. You can't expect instant success. The way we play will naturally evolve as we get more used to them and the way they play, positions they take up etc.

There seems to be a move on here to think wingers are rubbish and that no top team needs them. Which is nonsense. If we get the personnel right and get players in form our wingers can be devastating. It's just about finding the blend.
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I think 4-4-2 is as dead as a dodo, but that's not to say wide(ish) players are not required. It just depends on who you use. For example, Real, Barca, and Bayern have Marcelo, Di Maria, Alves, Tello, Villa, Ribery, Robben, but I don't think those players would tag themselves as pure wingers as they offer so much more.

This season so far, I don't think Valencia or Nani (Young crocked) have covered themselves in glory but then our play is so predictable...ball interchanges between Scholes and Carrick in the middle, a couple of give and give backs with Rooney/Kagawa/Evra/Rafael, then out wide...no real penetration.

Kagawa and Rooney have shown glimpses of an understanding (Welbeck too, but he's always been good at the interchanges around the box) but the ball so often ends up wide that we are restricting where we can go!

Really looking forward to tonight with Fletcher holding and Anderson and Cleverley in front (if that happens).
 
manusteve said:
I think 4-4-2 is as dead as a dodo, but that's not to say wide(ish) players are not required. It just depends on who you use. For example, Real, Barca, and Bayern have Marcelo, Di Maria, Alves, Tello, Villa, Ribery, Robben, but I don't think those players would tag themselves as pure wingers as they offer so much more.

This season so far, I don't think Valencia or Nani (Young crocked) have covered themselves in glory but then our play is so predictable...ball interchanges between Scholes and Carrick in the middle, a couple of give and give backs with Rooney/Kagawa/Evra/Rafael, then out wide...no real penetration.

Kagawa and Rooney have shown glimpses of an understanding (Welbeck too, but he's always been good at the interchanges around the box) but the ball so often ends up wide that we are restricting where we can go!

Really looking forward to tonight with Fletcher holding and Anderson and Cleverley in front (if that happens).
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I think it has its uses against weaker sides. But I also think that if you transplant Keane and Scholes at their respective peaks into this side, we could take on all comers playing 442. It's just that our personnel in midfield - and across the board in football, from what I've seen - isn't quite good enough to do that. There is a real dearth of traditional midfielders. Most of them seem to be able to do a couple of things well without being a threat in others.
 
Brophs said:
They're less than a dozen games into their careers here. You can't expect instant success. The way we play will naturally evolve as we get more used to them and the way they play, positions they take up etc.

There seems to be a move on here to think wingers are rubbish and that no top team needs them. Which is nonsense. If we get the personnel right and get players in form our wingers can be devastating. It's just about finding the blend.
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I dont think wingers are rubbish, far from it. But if you buy players like RVP and Kagawa, you need to tinker your style to make better use of them. Am not saying we shouldnt use our wingers, ofcourse we should, its a style which has served us well. But, our game should not be built totally around scholes pinging it out to one of the wide men. Getting players like cleverley and anderson in there would give our game much more variety and give our options upfront much needed support as our current CM combo sits far too deep.
 
Brophs said:
They're less than a dozen games into their careers here. You can't expect instant success. The way we play will naturally evolve as we get more used to them and the way they play, positions they take up etc.

There seems to be a move on here to think wingers are rubbish and that no top team needs them. Which is nonsense. If we get the personnel right and get players in form our wingers can be devastating. It's just about finding the blend.
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That probably came about because of Fergie's philosophy that central midfield is rubbish and a top team doesn't need one.

But seriously, our entire attack seems to be set up for getting the ball out wide as quickly as possible so that the wide players may pump cross after cross into the area. It's awfully restrictive and predictable and doesn't suit Kagawa at all and hardly ideal for Van Persie.

Also, static midfield + wingers stretching the pitch + two strikers or a striker and an AM playing very close to each other = huuuge gaps all over the pitch which technically adept opponents can and do easily exploit.
 
Brophs said:
I think it has its uses against weaker sides. But I also think that if you transplant Keane and Scholes at their respective peaks into this side, we could take on all comers playing 442. It's just that our personnel in midfield - and across the board in football, from what I've seen - isn't quite good enough to do that. There is a real dearth of traditional midfielders. Most of them seem to be able to do a couple of things well without being a threat in others.
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Keane and Scholes in their prime were often outmatched and outplayed by tactically smarter teams. It would be better than it is right now but the issue would still be there.
 
Siorac said:
Keane and Scholes in their prime were often outmatched and outplayed by tactically smarter teams. It would be better than it is right now but the issue would still be there.
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Good point, and Keano & Scholes were the dogs bollocks too...
 
Siorac said:
Keane and Scholes in their prime were often outmatched and outplayed by tactically smarter teams. It would be better than it is right now but the issue would still be there.
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Which is why I made the point about transplanting them into this side. We're much more aware of how to play in Europe now. I don't think our tactics back then were necessarily ideal for Europe. Just bombing on all night didn't leave much to figure out for good sides.
 
So as I said before I'm missing tonight's game - but I don't want to simply watch the highlights. I'd prefer to watch the full game - so I ask you my fellow Caftards, is there a place where I can download/watch the full game after full time?

I would be incredibly grateful!
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
So as I said before I'm missing tonight's game - but I don't want to simply watch the highlights. I'd prefer to watch the full game - so I ask you my fellow Caftards, is there a place where I can download/watch the full game after full time?

I would be incredibly grateful!
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Check the video thread in the United forum. Chris H usually posts links to download the full game/highlights right after the game ends.
 
Antisocial said:
De Gea
Rafael---Evans---Wootton---Evra
Cleverley---Carrick---Anderson
Kagawa---Rooney
Chicharito

Bench: Lindegaard, Buttner, M. Keane, Welbeck, RVP, Nani, Fletcher​

This is one of those games we are expected to win in the group, so pressure not to take it too lightly. However leave Rio, Giggs and Scholes at home; Wootton needs as much time as we can give him as we always need a centre-back and he appears to be the chosen one from the reserves. Due to selecting him, I'd go with Evra over Buttner for the experience to hopefully help Wootton settle in.

Also want Rooney and Kagawa to get used to playing together; tempted to include RVP for the same reason but Hernandez also needs games.
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ME love this long time, only Fletcher to Carrick. If we are going to try a strong lineup with no wingers that's surely the game to do it. Highly energetic midfield, one-two fast passing flair, talent everywhere in the front 5, and one of the best poachers in the game in Chicha.
Rest RvP, and unleash him at the PL.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
So as I said before I'm missing tonight's game - but I don't want to simply watch the highlights. I'd prefer to watch the full game - so I ask you my fellow Caftards, is there a place where I can download/watch the full game after full time?

I would be incredibly grateful!
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pakmans football blog is a good shout.
 
Brophs said:
Which is why I made the point about transplanting them into this side. We're much more aware of how to play in Europe now. I don't think our tactics back then were necessarily ideal for Europe. Just bombing on all night didn't leave much to figure out for good sides.
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Or average sides. I still get flashbacks to Gothenberg giving us a chasing.
 
Cluj have fast players and like to play on the counter. Can see them causing us some problems.
 
Strangely, I'm not excited one bit. I hope that changes prior to kick off :/ Champions League anthem usually does the trick.
 
Solius said:
Cluj have fast players and like to play on the counter. Can see them causing us some problems.
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Well they knocked out Basel so that should tell us all we need to know.
 
Team I'd pick:

DDG

Rafael
Evans
Ferdinand
Buttner

Nani
Cleverley
Anderson
Kagawa

Rooney
RVP



---Let's play a strong team, forget about Sunday since we have a good 5 days in between, it shouldn't be a problem for the players in terms of fitness. Besides, the likes of Cleverley, Anderson, Rooney and Buttner could use this game.
 
Ronaldo's Mum said:
Team I'd pick:

DDG

Rafael
Evans
Ferdinand
Buttner

Nani
Cleverley
Anderson
Kagawa

Rooney
RVP



---Let's play a strong team, forget about Sunday since we have a good 5 days in between, it shouldn't be a problem for the players in terms of fitness. Besides, the likes of Cleverley, Anderson, Rooney and Buttner could use this game.
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Good team. We need to start playing Rooney, RVP and Kagawa from the start, had we done so last Saturday we probably would have gone on to win. And yes, its about time we inject some energy into our lethargic midfield, Anderson and Clev ftw.
 
RedKaos said:
Good team. We need to start playing Rooney, RVP and Kagawa from the start, had we done so last Saturday we probably would have gone on to win. And yes, its about time we inject some energy into our lethargic midfield, Anderson and Clev ftw.
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I would continue to start Kagawa on the right to bring Rooney into the team.

It's Europe and most teams play with a more narrow midfield so using Kagawa on the left isn't the worst idea. I think in the future, that's the position he must take up if we are to use both RvP and Rooney together.
 
Ronaldo's Mum said:
Team I'd pick:

DDG

Rafael
Evans
Ferdinand
Buttner

Nani
Cleverley
Anderson
Kagawa

Rooney
RVP



---Let's play a strong team, forget about Sunday since we have a good 5 days in between, it shouldn't be a problem for the players in terms of fitness. Besides, the likes of Cleverley, Anderson, Rooney and Buttner could use this game.
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I do like that 11, if you put them into a 4231 it would be pretty sexy:


Rafael Rio Evans Evra
Cleverley Anderson
Nani Rooney Kagawa
Van Persie​
 
RedKaos said:
Good team. We need to start playing Rooney, RVP and Kagawa from the start, had we done so last Saturday we probably would have gone on to win. And yes, its about time we inject some energy into our lethargic midfield, Anderson and Clev ftw.
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I'd love it if they all three of them played from the start.

I'd go for a 4-3-2-1, with Fletcher anchoring the midfield, Ando and Cleverley given license to push forwards, Rooney and Kagawa behind RvP. The width would be provided by the forwards' movement, and by the full-backs. Just cos we don't start with out and out wingers wouldn't mean there would be no width.

A lot of pace, power and intelligence in that lineup that would normally have the possession of the ball. The fact that it might seem light defensively should be nuanced by us holding the ball. Also, the positioning of the team quite high up would enable us to pressure them when trying to go forward and probably force them to rely on long balls (which will lead to us getting the ball back from them quicker).
 
I hope a young side goes out there and kicks some serious Romanian ass.
So much so that Fergie picks a youngish side for Newcastle and a new trend follows of Anderson and Cleverley dominated matches with Rooney and RVP scoring for fun and Giggs and Scholes coming on as subs to protect a lead or help get that winning goal late in the game.
 
Quick, someone with Twitter lineups!

We need to start the wanking or panicking fast!
 
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