Champions League QFs (11th - 19th April)

Celestiale said:
The season Bayern won the Champions League a few years ago, they had regular starters of the same format like those two. You don't need eleven "magic-tootsies" in football. :rolleyes:
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This was the starting XI against Dortmund in the final:

Mandzukic
Ribery - Muller - Robben
Schweinsteiger - Martinez
Alaba - Dante - Boateng - Lahm
Neuer

And that is excluding Kroos who was injured. Let's not pretend as if that Bayern line-up wasn't several tiers above the current United squad. None of the current United players apart from Ibrahimovic and Rojo would get in the 11 (over Mandzukic and Dante).

With that being said, both Bayern and Barcelona have clearly gone backwards over the past few years. Bayern are struggling to replace Robben and Ribery terrorizing the wings. We are struggling to replace our once legendary midfield dominating games.
 
Don't underestimate Mandzukic, he was in pretty good shape that season and his immense work rate was a big help. Juventus still squeeze him in despite already having Higuain and Dybala.
 
Yeah, mandzukic has to be one of the most underrated players around. His energy and workrate are incredible, physically he's an absolute beast, and he has a very high IQ and his hold-up and link-up play is one of the best in the world. Allegri can't wait to tell everyone who will listen how he's such a technical player
 
Infordin said:
Mandzukic
Ribery - Muller - Robben
Schweinsteiger - Martinez
Alaba - Dante - Boateng - Lahm
Neuer

And that is excluding Kroos who was injured. Let's not pretend as if that Bayern line-up wasn't several tiers above the current United squad. None of the current United players apart from Ibrahimovic and Rojo would get in the 11 (over Mandzukic and Dante).
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Not the biggest of differences..
Neuer and De Gea are pretty much the same level.
Valencia and Lahm too, despite being vastly different playing types.
You already mentioned Rojo.
Pogba over both midfielders..
Müller...i have Micky over him, Mata as well..vastly different players again.
Ibra over Mandzu

Strength of Bayern was always their winning mentality, fighting to the end...and not their individual class (compared to say Barca or Real..)
Same used to be the case for us, those times seem to fade away further and further....
 
Celestiale said:
Pogba over both midfielders..
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Martinez was a pure defensive midfielder, not the same role as Pogba.

Schweinsteiger in his prime was a monster, one of the best b2b mids of the past 20 years. A level above current Pogba as far as I'm concerned. He was far better defensively (could actually play in a midfield two) and offered the same threat going forward.
Valencia and Lahm too [same level], despite being vastly different playing types.
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Lahm in his prime was one of the best right backs of the past 20 years along with Alves/Cafu/Zanetti. Valencia has had one good season in that position. It's not even close.

I mean, let's not pretend as if the 2013 Bayern Munich team was anything else but stacked with at least 8-9 world class players.
 
Celestiale said:
Not the biggest of differences..
Neuer and De Gea are pretty much the same level.
Valencia and Lahm too, despite being vastly different playing types.
You already mentioned Rojo.
Pogba over both midfielders..
Müller...i have Micky over him, Mata as well..vastly different players again.
Ibra over Mandzu

Strength of Bayern was always their winning mentality, fighting to the end...and not their individual class (compared to say Barca or Real..)
Same used to be the case for us, those times seem to fade away further and further....
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Lahn is significantly better than Valencia come on

And how is Micky better than Muller?
 
Celestiale said:
Not the biggest of differences..
Neuer and De Gea are pretty much the same level.
Valencia and Lahm too, despite being vastly different playing types.
You already mentioned Rojo.
Pogba over both midfielders..
Müller...i have Micky over him, Mata as well..vastly different players again.
Ibra over Mandzu

Strength of Bayern was always their winning mentality, fighting to the end...and not their individual class (compared to say Barca or Real..)
Same used to be the case for us, those times seem to fade away further and further....
Click to expand...
This is unbelievable. That Bayern team was far better than the current United team

Valencia and Lahm are not the same level. Pogba over both midfielders makes no sense. It's just a way of not saying Martinez is a better DM than Herrera. Bayerns midfield was far more balanced and they had Kroos too
 
I am pretty sure that Bayern Munich will win in Madrid.

As long as they play with 11 men and Lewandowski...
The only reason they lost was the red card, and of course they were missing Lewandowski/Hummels. That's like Real without Ronaldo and one man down.

Madrid : Bayern - 2:4
 
Winning in Madrid is hard. Winning in Madrid with at least 2, better 3 goals, is incredibly hard. Maybe injuries tip the tie in our favor, but i'm not holding my breath. Will start holding breath if it's 0-1 after 10 minutes.
 
We're still playing Nacho who was once again at fault for us conceding against sporting(3rd game in a row where we concede and he's lost his man)
 
Celestiale said:
Not the biggest of differences..
Neuer and De Gea are pretty much the same level.
Valencia and Lahm too, despite being vastly different playing types.
You already mentioned Rojo.
Pogba over both midfielders..
Müller...i have Micky over him, Mata as well..vastly different players again.
Ibra over Mandzu

Strength of Bayern was always their winning mentality, fighting to the end...and not their individual class (compared to say Barca or Real..)
Same used to be the case for us, those times seem to fade away further and further....
Click to expand...

Self esteem is good and confidence buys more confidence but, come on! The 2013 Bayern treble-makers was a sequentially improved machine and finally a proven combination at home and abroad at the highest level.
 
Bepi said:
Self esteem is good and confidence buys more confidence but, come on! The 2013 Bayern treble-makers was a sequentially improved machine and finally a proven combination at home and abroad at the highest level.
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Of course it was, but they had nowhere near the best eleven in European football. Nor had we when we won the CL before. We have (or had in our case) other qualities. With the right setup we could win the CL as well, just as Dortmund or Atletico nearly did the last years. We'll see the next 2 years how far we get
 
They had the best keeper, the best full backs, the best midfield partnership and the best wingers in Europe. How does that not add up to the best XI?
 
black_crow said:
I am pretty sure that Bayern Munich will win in Madrid.

As long as they play with 11 men and Lewandowski...
The only reason they lost was the red card, and of course they were missing Lewandowski/Hummels. That's like Real without Ronaldo and one man down.

Madrid : Bayern - 2:4
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Bayern is probably playing without Martinez, Hummels AND Boateng. Martinez suspended and the other 2 injured. Which will force them to play a CB pairing of Kimmich+Alaba (Bernat LB then) or even Alonso(!) as CB. This could be a real desaster, especially in Bernabeau against Ronaldo etc.
 
Celestiale said:
Not the biggest of differences..
Neuer and De Gea are pretty much the same level.
Valencia and Lahm too, despite being vastly different playing types.
You already mentioned Rojo.
Pogba over both midfielders..
Müller...i have Micky over him, Mata as well..vastly different players again.
Ibra over Mandzu

Strength of Bayern was always their winning mentality, fighting to the end...and not their individual class (compared to say Barca or Real..)
Same used to be the case for us, those times seem to fade away further and further....
Click to expand...
Just saw that post:lol:
Valencia same level as prime Lahm? Pogba of now better than prime Schweinsteiger? Micky and Mata over Müller? Jesus wept.
 
Blind said:
They had the best keeper, the best full backs, the best midfield partnership and the best wingers in Europe.
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Not really. Best keeper i can live with, best full backs? Nope..there are certain Dani Alves and Marcelo. Best midfield partnership? At this time Barca still had Xavi and Iniesta (prime). Best wingers? Now it's getting ridiculous. Ronaldo, Bale, Hazard...
 
Celestiale said:
Not really. Best keeper i can live with, best full backs? Nope..there are certain Dani Alves and Marcelo. Best midfield partnership? At this time Barca still had Xavi and Iniesta (prime). Best wingers? Now it's getting ridiculous. Ronaldo, Bale, Hazard...
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Yeah, the world XI was obviously a better team! How come they didn't win the CL that year?
 
Celestiale said:
Not really. Best keeper i can live with, best full backs? Nope..there are certain Dani Alves and Marcelo. Best midfield partnership? At this time Barca still had Xavi and Iniesta (prime). Best wingers? Now it's getting ridiculous. Ronaldo, Bale, Hazard...
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How old are you? Did you even watch football back then? :lol:

And btw.: On which earth did Marcelo and Dani Alves pair up in european football? :lol: And even if, Lahm prime + Alaba was still a better pairing.

And on which earth have Iniesta and Xavi(!) been in their prime in 2013?


And yes, Ribery+Robben was the best winger pairing in Europe back then, period.
 
OutlawGER said:
How old are you? Did you even watch football back then? :lol:

And btw.: On which earth did Marcelo and Dani Alves pair up in european football? :lol:

And on which earth have Iniesta and Xavi(!) been in their prime in 2013?


And yes, Ribery+Robben was the best winger pairing in Europe back then, period.
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I am old enough to read properly, you are obviously not.
 
:lol: I think there's a misunderstanding here.

When people say Bayern had the best XI that year, they mean compared to other teams at the time. Not to a World XI. So you can't point to Alves and Marcelo, since they played for different teams. You have to pick a team who had a better pair of fullbacks than Lahm and Alaba.
 
I am out of this discussion anyway. This is the typical Stammtisch-level discussion with die-hard Bayern fans, whose footballing knowledge ends exactly there. Since i live in Bayern i luckily have quite a bunch of friends that are Bayernfans and knowledgable about European football as well, and can discuss properly with them on parity without having the need of insults when we disagree with each other on certain points.
 
black_crow said:
I am pretty sure that Bayern Munich will win in Madrid.

As long as they play with 11 men and Lewandowski...
The only reason they lost was the red card, and of course they were missing Lewandowski/Hummels. That's like Real without Ronaldo and one man down.

Madrid : Bayern - 2:4
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"Only", as if the red card was an accident or a case of bad luck.
 
The Bayern XI which played in Wembley had nine undisputed world class players (top 5 on their positions) and the last two (Dante, Mandzukic) performed on world class level that season.

The biggest strengths that Bayern side had (and what makes it one of the strongest club sides in history) was an enourmous amount of balance, versatility and mentality. That team had literally no clear weakness, something an opposing side could take advantage of, And If everything else failed they still had the strongest flanks (Alaba/Ribey and Lahm/Robben) I have ever seen to fall back on.

The 2012/2013 Bayern side was a terrifying monster of a team.
 
Sphaero said:
The Bayern XI which played in Wembley had nine undisputed world class players (top 5 on their positions) and the last two (Dante, Mandzukic) performed on world class level that season.

The biggest strengths that Bayern side had (and what makes it one of the strongest club sides in history) was an enourmous amount of balance, versatility and mentality. That team had literally no clear weakness, something an opposing side could take advantage of, And If everything else failed they still had the strongest flanks (Alaba/Ribey and Lahm/Robben) I have ever seen to fall back on.

The 2012/2013 Bayern side was a terrifying monster of a team.
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Pretty much this. We can argue whether their starting XI was better than barcelona's, but it was better than any other team in the world, player by player, overall quality, whatever measure you want to use. Ribery was the best player in the world in terms of performances that year(2013. For the season it was Messi), robben came on after kroos injury and took them to an even higher level

As a collection of individuals, they were one of the two, three(at a stretch) best teams in the world. And as a team, i'll just quote my mate(juve fan) who was at the Stadium for the second leg: OVERWHELMING
 
giorno said:
Pretty much this. We can argue whether their starting XI was better than barcelona's, but it was better than any other team in the world, player by player, overall quality, whatever measure you want to use. Ribery was the best player in the world in terms of performances that year(2013. For the season it was Messi), robben came on after kroos injury and took them to an even higher level

As a collection of individuals, they were one of the two, three(at a stretch) best teams in the world. And as a team, i'll just quote my mate(juve fan) who was at the Stadium for the second leg: OVERWHELMING
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i'd emphasize the team spirit here. The team had players almost as good as any of the designated superstars (maybe even just as good), but they didn't act like one. If you swapped Ribery or Robben for Messi or CR, it would have made the team weaker, not stronger.
 
OutlawGER said:
Bayern is probably playing without Martinez, Hummels AND Boateng. Martinez suspended and the other 2 injured. Which will force them to play a CB pairing of Kimmich+Alaba (Bernat LB then) or even Alonso(!) as CB. This could be a real desaster, especially in Bernabeau against Ronaldo etc.
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Hummels and Boateng have flown to Madrid with the rest of the squad at least. There is hope for them, although regarding their fitness it's probably still a problem.
 
strongwalker said:
i'd emphasize the team spirit here. The team had players almost as good as any of the designated superstars (maybe even just as good), but they didn't act like one. If you swapped Ribery or Robben for Messi or CR, it would have made the team weaker, not stronger.
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This is a cultural thing the English clubs, coaches and fans cannot appreciate in full, not yet: the concept of working as a unit and producing in that more than the sum of the parts. It's also why the England golden generation never won a major tournament at international level and the reason why Italy, on the contrary, historically not far ahead for homegrown talent production, seems often punching above its weight as a national team.
 
black_crow said:
Madrid : Bayern - 2:4
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I saw little indication in the first leg that Bayern will be able to score FOUR at the Bernabeu.

They created few chances against Madrid at home. This game will likely be a counterattacking fest. Neuer will need to have a world class game to keep Bayern in it.

Conceding one won't even matter that much, since they need two goals regardless.
 
Bepi said:
This is a cultural thing the English clubs, coaches and fans cannot appreciate in full, not yet: the concept of working as a unit and producing in that more than the sum of the parts. It's also why the England golden generation never won a major tournament at international level and the reason why Italy, on the contrary, historically not far ahead for homegrown talent production, seems often punching above its weight as a national team.
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Fully agree. Cultural mentality. Now i could take a quote from Jeremy Clarkson about the French, which also fits for the English when talking about football, but i guess some folks would feel offended. Mentality won Germany and German teams, as well as Italy and Italian teams a lot of titles..We (United) used to be quite an exception in that regard under Fergie, those times seem to vanish further and further away..
 
Bepi said:
This is a cultural thing the English clubs, coaches and fans cannot appreciate in full, not yet: the concept of working as a unit and producing in that more than the sum of the parts.
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...Because the 70s and 80s never happened...:rolleyes:
It's also why the England golden generation never won a major tournament at international level and the reason why Italy, on the contrary, historically not far ahead for homegrown talent production, seems often punching above its weight as a national team.
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We never really punched above our weight though, not really, barring beating Brazil in '82. We do tend to have a better winning mentality and culture but it's not about team spirit
 
Infordin said:
I saw little indication in the first leg that Bayern will be able to score FOUR at the Bernabeu.

They created few chances against Madrid at home. This game will likely be a counterattacking fest. Neuer will need to have a world class game to keep Bayern in it.

Conceding one won't even matter that much, since they need two goals regardless.
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I wouldn't draw conclusions from the first leg to the second one tonight. IMHO it's impossible to predict what will happen, everything's possible: From a comfortable win for Real to a Bayern win that sends them through (with or without extra time and penalty shoot out).
 
I just can't see Madrid losing today. They'll hit Bayern on the counter and score a few. Ronaldo will be on the score sheet.
 
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