Also fair.
Charlottesville
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I agree, I'm making an assumption here but I think majority of those who think education is the key to fixing these problems - more likely than not don't have first hand experience dealing with racists, and much less won't tell their nan off for calling people gollywogs.
Education sounds good on paper, but these people know what they are and what they believe, and convincing them otherwise will take lots of time & energy.
Also I can see the point about the economic struggles, a poor black kid in Detroit will have similar issues with a poor white kid in Alabama, such as lack of job prospects, family members on drugs/low income, poor education etc.
More money invested in those in poverty in America would certainly be a start, but where do you begin? Black communities have been underfunded by the american government for pretty much it's entire existence, but if you develop the black communities first, these Nazi's will just continue their fight - and there's history of this too, with them burning down successful black communities in order to advance theirs.
I didn't openly justify violence against Nazi's though, I just don't care about the violence that happens to Nazi's relative to the whole point about Nazi's marching in the first place and killing innocent people.
If the shoe doesn't fit, then feel free to ignore that comment. I've just read a slew of posts concerned about what happens if Nazis get punched.
I guess what I'm saying is that, in this specific context, I am much, much less concerned about an unwise, emotional reaction to bigotry, than the bigotry itself. And with the added context of race relations in this country, calling for peace when the KKK marches down your block is incredibly naive.
Considering the atrocities associated with the Nazi's I find it astonishing, let alone ironic, that anybody would condone violence against the Nazi’s.
Here’s an example of why:
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Here’s an example of why:
and
To be fair there's very little to discuss on Nazis being bad. We know what they are it goes without saying.
I don't think anyone has implied an equivalence, unless you're counting the discussion of violence from the left as enough. It shouldn't really need a caveat/disclaimer.
I'm pretty sure i remember a clash in a UK service station last year or the year before that and everyone had the same discussions then. Conclusion being everyone instigating violence is a cnut but Nazis are mega-cnuts
I wouldn't say I particularly care about people defending themselves and giving a nazi a good old crack in the skull. And maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not in touch with the situation, but it just struck me as odd how we all suddenly seem to want to fight violence with violence. Self defence is one thing, but going out looking for it like they do is too far for me.
If the shoe doesn't fit, then feel free to ignore that comment. I've just read a slew of posts concerned about what happens if Nazis get punched.
The shoe doesn't fit. I'm not concerned about them at all, again that was never my point. I couldn't give a flying feck if people are forced into fighting to defend themselves and give a few of the scum bags a good smack. Let's not make this into something it's not.
In this particular specific context I completely agree. Do you think I wouldn't come out and fight for what's right if it came down to it? Of course I would and I'd be proud to. My point was always based on the grand scheme, the discussion after the event. So many are willing to 'crack skulls' or at least act like they would. I don't get how that is acceptable or will help stop all this in the future, that's all. Mockney said it's the false equivalence that Trump wants, I disagree, I think he wants the left to act exactly like the right so he can be proved right. A few of us saying violence isn't the long term solution means nothing to the man, it's that actions that do. That's clearly what they are looking for here, that's why they have crawled out of the woodwork. We need to make sure the future generations don't fall for this, we need to make sure we can once again make it unacceptable to have those views. Even if we can't stop it right now, surely the long term should be the plan?
I'll probably leave it there now. But again for the record, if it came down to it, I know what side I'd be on if I'm ever caught up in this and I wouldn't hesitate to fight.
That's why most 'centrist' people don't have much trouble with drone attacks in foreign countries, but are disturbed at the sight of someone punching a nazi. If they don't see it, it doesn't really exist, in a way. Although few of the posters here are obviously vile right wingers, but they tend to adapt to surroundings and hide their true beliefs.
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The KKK and the Nazi's are still an active threat, white supremacists account for 2/3's of terrorism in the US - calling for non-violence is idealistic and ultimately is off the table.
If it was possible, nobody would get hurt on either side - but i'll say it again, the KKK and the Nazi's are an active threat, and white supremacists are the main terrorists in America.
In 2017.
Their mere presence is a violent act against me as a black person.
I'm not going to go Nazi hunting, but expecting a rational reaction from everybody in response to the KKK & the Nazi's is whimsical.
I have this thread fave'd on twitter, she brings up some very valid points, particularly this comparison with Black Lives Matter, that some people seem stuck on.
Ahh, but that's again not what I'm saying. I'm not saying at the moment. I'm not saying don't give a threatening Nazi a good smack in the mouth. Of course I completely understand the reactions in the situation, I've been in plenty of fights in my youth over far, far less important issues! Nor do I expect everybody to be on the same wavelength. For example, I don't think what I'm saying is particularly outlandish but now we have people popping into the thread to suggest that I have sympathy for the Nazis
This is the problem we are having once again on here, it's sometimes hard for people to objectively look at what's being written without slanting it with their own viewpoint. As always, I really do think if we were having this conversation face to face we'd be far closer to agreeing.
But to me that's the most important thing. Neo Nazis are a bunch of degenerates, it's impossible to reconcile American identity with Nazism, that's also true for most European countries but truer in the US. First Nazism is more than xenophobia, it's a political ideology where individual freedom is close to null, it's based on an extremely pyramidal gigantic administration, it is ultimate socialism. It goes totally against the logic of the people we saw this weekend.
When you consider that the Third Reich that these pretend true Americans seem to adore is an enemy of the US and that their great parents lost their lives fighting them, you have to wonder how they place themselves in US history, one would/should call them traitors.
Yep. It's a central theme of MLK's "Letter from Birmingham Jail".
Funny then how only people who show up to stand against them tend to be socialists?
What a load of rubbish. Nazis, fascists, ethnic nationalists... actually don't give a damn about size of the government and similar stuff. Their 'ideology' is very simple: exterminate the different, cull the 'weak' and 'traitors', reduce politics to tribalism. And they have always been part of American history, usually in the form of white supremacy. Capitalist social darwinism and 'muh freedoms' stupidity are their faithful allies.
You know, if you don't want to take the entire post into account, don't bother posting.
The far left radicals opposing them meanwhile want to exterminate all different opinions, cull the 'privileged' and the 'uncle toms' and reduce politics to wars between identities.
Yeah, you also forgot to mention gulag. Do you accidentally believe in some sort of 'cultural marxism' conspiracy theory? Just a wild guess!
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I don't have links, but I've read in many places that both Trumps core support and the marching nazis are more likely to be suburban and fairly comfortable. The car-killer had an expensive car, presumably bought by his parents, since he was just 20.
That's kind of his thing, it seems. Or not taking any of the post at all into account.
I don't understand how politics can exist without acknowledgement of identities - can you elaborate on this?
Dick Spencer gets rejected in Florida.....
I still feel there's a level of armchair posturing to a certain extent. A kind of wishy washy idealism, buoyed by the fact it's unlikely to affect many of us white, privileged (or quasi-privileged) people as directly or personally as it is those who're genuinely in danger from it.
There's a big difference between saying "violence is bad and ideally shouldn't be resorted to" and "it's never okay to resort to violence." There's pacifism and there's appeasement, and I think it's very easy for many of us to conflate the two in the name of intellectualism.
And the worst thing is that he is wrong, how power is controlled and organized is part of Nazism, it's also a nationalist and xenophobic ideology. Ironically what he did is probably the answer to @vi1lain's puzzlement, they are comfortable making Nazi salute because too many people are using Nazism without the historical and political context, they just use it as a synonym of far-right fascism or white supremacy when it means a bit more than that.
Allllllllllll of this. Perfect response, thank you.
It's about socialists trying to take away our individual freedoms, am I right?
No and where did I said anything close to that? Or even anything negative about socialism?
How many does it take? I guess there will be different levels of racist/bigots/Nazi's, from your hardcore ones looking to form a facist government by any means necessary to those who are racist but not looking to overthrow the government, but could get swept up into any violence.
How many Trump voters are still supporting him and how many of those would be willing to resort to violence to "MAGA"?
Will it end up in a civil war? I think the chances are still not likely, but it gets closer to being likely the more violence there is. We can't just ignore them, we can't appease them, we obviously should respond accordingly to any violent acts they take or try to incite, but if you see a Nazi should you just go up and start caving his or her head in? Nah I don't think that really helps solve the problem. And to be clear, I am not saying that is what went on in Charlottesville.
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That's fair and its easy to see the contradictions between threads on here, which was one of the first points raised by someone. We choose are own justifications for violence very easily, now one group is clearly righteous here but you get the point.
However its a bit of a strawman, violence to defend yourself is obviously okay but not as gesturing or to silence.
Honestly mate don't bother, I'm pretty sure he's WUMming by this point
Trump's core support is irrelevant in this conversation.
The Nazi's would be interesting to see. I am sceptical of your claim that they are mostly middle class.
I would say from the Nazi's a lot of white people could be in danger from the American Nazi's. It seems that in addition to the hate they have for minorities, they also view anyone left of them politically as the enemy. So I would say plenty of white people ought to feel threatened by the American Nazi's.
I fall in the "violence is bad and ideally shouldn't be resorted to" part of the discussion. I do view self-defense as okay. But would I support people attacking any and all American Nazi's just because they are American Nazi's? No, I don't think that will help the situation.
They dont' mind 'both sides are bad' crowd. They see them as their allies and openly applaud that kind of rhetoric. With good reason, that any amount of formal distancing from nazis can't wash away.
Which has nothing to do with what I said, but okay.
I just read an article in the well-respected Dutch newspaper, De Volkskrant, about a report which will be aired on Dutch telly tonight and that will pour scorn on the statement that the anti-Nazi protesters instigated violence against the far right demonstrators.
According to the article the report will show a female reporter ‘befriending’ one of the neo-Nazi demonstrators at the demonstration in Charlottesville and joined their march. According to the article the pumped up & armed far right demonstrators instigated the violence with unprovoked attacks on the counter demonstrators. One example was given of a neo-Nazi hitting a long haired counter demonstrators in the back of the head with a baseball bat.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/televisie...d-is-voor-amerikaans-extreem-rechts~a4511344/
According to the article the report will show a female reporter ‘befriending’ one of the neo-Nazi demonstrators at the demonstration in Charlottesville and joined their march. According to the article the pumped up & armed far right demonstrators instigated the violence with unprovoked attacks on the counter demonstrators. One example was given of a neo-Nazi hitting a long haired counter demonstrators in the back of the head with a baseball bat.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/televisie...d-is-voor-amerikaans-extreem-rechts~a4511344/
There's quite a gap between acknowledging that people are different, to presenting every political idea through a prism of identity and grievance hierarchy, and then a further gap to intentionally pitting identity groups against each other.
Good stuff.
@Stocar why aren't you keen to elaborate on what you mean? Twice I've asked you.
Go ahead, if you claim people are hiding, let's not be hypocritical here...
Go ahead, if you claim people are hiding, let's not be hypocritical here...
Seems a rather pointless debate on who instigated violence on who.
The Nazi and Klansman components of that demonstration did not travel thousands of miles for just a meet up and non-physical protest. Everything about that display was intended to show that they don't just exist on internet forums, and are a very real and potentially very deadly presence. Likewise, radical leftists did not travel thousands of miles to do anything other than fight, regardless of whether they would be pitted against full blown nazis or right-leaning college kids.
Frankly it's a miracle no one was shot.
The Nazi and Klansman components of that demonstration did not travel thousands of miles for just a meet up and non-physical protest. Everything about that display was intended to show that they don't just exist on internet forums, and are a very real and potentially very deadly presence. Likewise, radical leftists did not travel thousands of miles to do anything other than fight, regardless of whether they would be pitted against full blown nazis or right-leaning college kids.
Frankly it's a miracle no one was shot.
What puzzles me is why Americans seem to accept the existence of highly armed private militias marching through their towns to intimidate people to their will. Is this allowed anywhere else?