Charlottesville

Kentonio said:
So basically you've picked out a couple of examples of random acts of violence against Trump supporters. Please provide links to Anti-fascist organizations 'inititiating violence' against Trump supporters, which was what your actual claim was. If you just want to play a game of 'random acts of violence' then I'm more than happy to link you to the endless list of blacks and liberals getting beaten up by Trump supporters while either protesting completely peacefully or just happening to walk past at the wrong moment.

If you think you're going to win some kind of moral high ground by painting the non-fascists and racists as the violent ones, then you're deluding yourself.
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You make it sound as if these examples I've given were cases where some random attacked a Trump supporter. All of them were antifa, large crowds of people wearing all black, faces covered, waving antifa and hammer and sickle banners.

As for the bolded bit, I'm sure that's true. So there are violent scumbags on both sides and this is snow balling out of control very fast. Which was my point.
 
KM said:
Was there any police presence at that White nationalist rally? I remember during the police brutality protests there used to be loads of policemen with guns around.
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The police only turn up when its blacks protesting.
 
soap said:
You make it sound as if these examples I've given were cases where some random attacked a Trump supporter. All of them were antifa, large crowds of people wearing all black, faces covered, waving antifa and hammer and sickle banners.

As for the bolded bit, I'm sure that's true. So there are violent scumbags on both sides and this is snow balling out of control very fast. Which was my point.
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Why do you keep trying to draw equivilence between anti-fascists and actual fascists and racists? I'm genuinely curious.
 
KM said:
Was there any police presence at that White nationalist rally? I remember during the police brutality protests there used to be loads of policemen with guns around.
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Black people protesting that their lives matter requires the national guard - including tanks!
White people insisting their lives are more important, and the police are more likely to either protect them, or not be there at all.
 
KM said:
Was there any police presence at that White nationalist rally? I remember during the police brutality protests there used to be loads of policemen with guns around.
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Plenty of police were there.
 
Plenty of cops there...local and state, including riot police. It was the riot police who tear gassed the nazis and broke up their rally.
 
Neutral said:
Plenty of cops there...local and state, including riot police. It was the riot police who tear gassed the nazis and broke up their rally.
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Fergies Gum said:
Plenty of police were there.
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Ekkie Thump said:
Yes, there were police:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...otTVAhXkJsAKHQxiDKMQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1600&bih=808
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Neutral said:
Plenty of cops there...local and state, including riot police. It was the riot police who tear gassed the nazis and broke up their rally.
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Thanks lads. Read on some twitter accounts that the police presence was minimal. Looks like it was false so therefore was confirming it here.
 
Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 said:
What i meant is that white supremacists and right-wing people always tend to see Soros behind everything.
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Ah, understood. Yes they do, and not only them. He has become the Rothschild of the 2010s (not that the Rothschilds have ceased to be an object of that paranoia).
 
Kentonio said:
Why do you keep trying to draw equivilence between anti-fascists and actual fascists and racists? I'm genuinely curious.
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In it's current incarnation, AntiFa are not just anti-facists, they're anti-anyone on the right, anti-free speech and will happily use violence to shut down people who aren't racists or fascists. Is that clear enough?
 
KM said:
Thanks lads. Read on some twitter accounts that the police presence was minimal. Looks like it was false so therefore was confirming it here.
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There was a large police presence but at the start, they weren't given the orders to break up the fighting and weren't allowed to be forceful.

Anti-police sentiments were in full flow last night. It isn't a surprise and you can see that attitude from some users in this thread.
 
vi1lain said:


Black people protesting that their lives matter requires the national guard - including tanks!
White people insisting their lives are more important, and the police are more likely to either protect them, or not be there at all.
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The police in the same riot gear were at the scene yesterday. Though that narrative and fact goes against your police bashing views.
 
Synco said:
Absolutely. He has shown no qualms associating himself with those people for his own benefit since running for president. When it comes to racism, hate crimes etc., intent is secondary, what matters is practise. And as you say, it's pretty obvious what he's doing.
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Trump's lifelong obsession with the Central Park Five should tell everyone how he feels about non-whites.
 
Kentonio said:
How did Turkey maintain its secular system for so long? Did the army just ask governments nicely to tone it down when they started getting too extreme?
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I wasn't talking about Turkey. To answer your question, though, it maintained it with a strong army and strong laws until America intervened and installed its puppet dictator. How comparing the Turkish military and a bunch of goons assaulting people with bike locks are helping justify Antifa's actions, who knows.

vi1lain said:
People wouldn't need to assault Nazi'd didn't exist. (1)

Also - you say this as if the racists aren't also being violence & aggressive? (2)
I think I read a statistic that said that over 2/3's of American terrorism is carried out by white supremacists, add that to the incident yesterday and I would say it's far more of an issue to be assaulted or possibly killed by a white supremacist than those protesting them. (2)

This 'whataboutism' is so tiring.
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(1) Okay, so why don't they spin the same twisted logic and justify their own hatred and despicable actions with the premise that "we wouldn't need to keep assaulting them if far-left extremists didn't exist as a potential threat to our democracy"? Call it whatever you want, it's just a nonsensical argument.

(2) It's getting to dangerous levels that go beyond "those protesting them." However, you oversimplify their actions in all of this, and then use any denunciation of their violence as an exoneration of the similar actions of their counterparts. It's simple - they're enabling each other, and as they do so, the situation will invariably become more perilous. To twist it any other way is a misrepresentation of the argument. If you're fine with them going and assaulting people and giving the Nazis the state of chaos they so desperately crave, great, as you're gradually getting what you want. We'll see how well that works.
 


Don't think this sort of criticism is unusual...fine line between wanting to keep things calm and being a catalyst for more violence.

I'm sure - they'll learn from it. Not to mention until the asshole drove his car in to the crowd, despite thousands of people being present, only 20 injuries were reported.
 
Kentonio said:
We're talking about racists and fascists, this is exactly the appropriate thread.
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Sure but then this would be the appropriate thread for discussing fat men playing golf as well and surely no one wants that. :)
 
soap said:
In it's current incarnation, AntiFa are not just anti-facists, they're anti-anyone on the right, anti-free speech and will happily use violence to shut down people who aren't racists or fascists. Is that clear enough?
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It's pretty clear that you seem to care a lot more about the bigots and racists on the far right than you do about the people standing up against them yes. Your questionable position only makes any sense if we assume that Trump isn't a racist and a bigot. We know from his own words that he is both of those things, so what exactly are we supposed to be condemning the anti-fascists for? You did notice that Steve Bannon, a far right nationalist is currently one of Trumps senior advisors right? You didn't miss that little gem I presume?

Or is it Milo you're such a big fan of? The guy who thinks 13 year old children should be allowed to have sex with adults? I notice you references people throwing fireworks at a protest against him btw, yet managed to completely ignore the anti-Milo protestor who was actually shot at the same event.
 
Zlaatan said:
Sure but then this would be the appropriate thread for discussing fat men playing golf as well and surely no one wants that. :)
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I already moved my reply to Soap into the other thread. Then Fener went and ruined it by carrying on in here. :p
 
Fener1907 said:
(1) Okay, so why don't they spin the same twisted logic and justify their own hatred and despicable actions with the premise that "we wouldn't need to keep assaulting them if far-left extremists didn't exist as a potential threat to our democracy"? Call it whatever you want, it's just a nonsensical argument.

(2) It's getting to dangerous levels that go beyond "those protesting them." However, you oversimplify their actions in all of this, and then use any denunciation of their violence as an exoneration of the similar actions of their counterparts. It's simple - they're enabling each other, and as they do so, the situation will invariably become more perilous. To twist it any other way is a misrepresentation of the argument. If you're fine with them going and assaulting people and giving the Nazis the state of chaos they so desperately crave, great, as you're gradually getting what you want. We'll see how well that works.
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The only nonsensical situation here is that Nazi's still exist in 2017. Whatever it takes to rid the world of them, I am in support of.

Secondly - you're the one who insisted on repeating the violence against these Nazi's, and I'm simply saying that white supremacy in America is a far bigger threat than 'antifas' (the irony in that term being used as often as it is, while saying everyone centre-right is called a Nazi is delicious btw).
The two aren't equal at all. There's history of white supremacists actively planning and pre-meditating attacks to kill minorities, and that is still true today.
You keep shifting blame & accountability on those who are against the Nazi's - that they should be the one to stop calling them Nazi's, and they should be the ones who aren't violent.

What's the intention behind this?
Do you believe that they are treated too harshly, or perhaps more deserving of remorse or empathy?
 
Fener1907 said:
I wasn't talking about Turkey. To answer your question, though, it maintained it with a strong army and strong laws until America intervened and installed its puppet dictator. How comparing the Turkish military and a bunch of goons assaulting people with bike locks are helping justify Antifa's actions, who knows.
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1) Because they used force to crush extremism before it got out of hand. Something you're saying is supposedly always a bad thing.
2) It wasn't a 'bunch of goons' hitting people with bike locks, it was one crazy guy. See how easily a misrepresentation can change the whole perception?

Fener1907 said:
(2) It's getting to dangerous levels that go beyond "those protesting them." However, you oversimplify their actions in all of this, and then use any denunciation of their violence as an exoneration of the similar actions of their counterparts. It's simple - they're enabling each other, and as they do so, the situation will invariably become more perilous. To twist it any other way is a misrepresentation of the argument. If you're fine with them going and assaulting people and giving the Nazis the state of chaos they so desperately crave, great, as you're gradually getting what you want. We'll see how well that works.
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It's gotten out of hand because their foul little nazi movement was allowed to grow unhindered, and then when Trump got into office he stopped law enforcement from continuing their investigations and surveillance of those far right groups. They are now feeling empowered to the degree that they can walk openly carrying torches and nazi flags. The chaos is already here, either people stand up against it or they accept it.
 
vi1lain said:
The police aren't above criticism.
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Of course not.

You'll see my views in this thread yesterday where i criticised the police for being too tolerant at the start. Mass violence was ensuing and the police weren't given the go ahead to go in and start arresting the thugs.
 
Neutral said:
Next rally is on the 19th in....

Boston.
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"Free speech rally"

What's annoying about this is the way the alt-right attempt to present themselves as the defenders of free speech when in fact what they really want is simply for free speech to continue to defend them.
 
Neutral said:
Next rally is on the 19th in....

Boston.
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Would love to have gone to photograph!

Surprised they have a strong following in Boston? Would have thought such an intellectual heartland would have become 100% intolerant of white supremacy?
 
MrMarcello said:
So.... has Orange Julius sent out some tweets this morning?
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Nope, he's tight lipped so far.

He's under huge pressure to address the issue and mention white supremacy and Nazis, so i suspect we'll get a tweet about it.
 
Fergies Gum said:
Of course not.

You'll see my views in this thread yesterday where i criticised the police for being too tolerant at the start. Mass violence was ensuing and the police weren't given the go ahead to go in and start arresting the thugs.
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That's fair, I'm critical of the response of the police to these events, particularly as someone who's been to a few BLM protests and the way they intimidate and suppress us.
Compared to seeing pictures & videos of hordes of people with torches marching throughout the night, spouting hate speech and they are portrayed at least to have no where near the amount of police presence suppressing them.
But if the media portray that incorrectly, then I'm happy to concede being wrong.
 
Kentonio said:
It's pretty clear that you seem to care a lot more about the bigots and racists on the far right than you do about the people standing up against them.
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Again, that is quite clearly not all they've been doing. If it was we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not of the opinion that every, or even most Trump supporters/right wingers are racists/fascists, and therefore legitimate targets for violence. AntiFa have shown that they do not agree. So feck them. They don't get to claim exclusivity of anti-racism. I can think they're a bunch of cnuts and think actual Nazis are cnuts too.

Genuinely curious now, is there any evidence that Steve Bannon is s white supremacist?
 
sammsky1 said:
Would love to have gone to photograph!

Surprised they have a strong following in Boston? Would have thought such an intellectual heartland would have become 100% intolerant of white supremacy?
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Why do you think in such absolute terms? There is no 100% of anything, anywhere.

These bastards are purposefully choosing big cities that aren't a part of their strongholds to prove a point.

And Boston as a city has quite a lot of history when it comes to race relations (as do most major cities in the US tbf) and things are pretty good there now.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...-are-racist/yMd7u1evwC5g6XhGAHMdyH/story.html
 
Neutral said:
Why do you think in such absolute terms? There is no 100% of anything, anywhere.

These bastards are purposefully choosing big cities that aren't a part of their strongholds to prove a point.

And Boston as a city has quite a lot of history when it comes to race relations (as do most major cities in the US tbf)
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Yeah, I guess you're right.

So Jed Bartlett was not superman after all.
 
soap said:
Again, that is quite clearly not all they've been doing. If it was we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not of the opinion that every, or even most Trump supporters/right wingers are racists/fascists, and therefore legitimate targets for violence. AntiFa have shown that they do not agree. So feck them. They don't get to claim exclusivity of anti-racism. I can think they're a bunch of cnuts and think actual Nazis are cnuts too.
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If you vote for someone who is openly racist then don't cry when people assume you must be too.
soap said:
Genuinely curious now, is there any evidence that Steve Bannon is s white supremacist?
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Apart from being the executive chair of Breitbart, a far right news organization? Sure, let's look at a few things..
In a court deposition, Bannon’s ex-wife Louise Piccard accused him of being an antisemite. She also brought charges of domestic violence against him in 1996, but they were dropped after she failed to appear in court.

“...the biggest problem he had with Archer [School for Girls] is the number of Jews that attend. He said that he doesn’t like Jews and that he doesn’t like the way they raise their kids to be ‘whiney brats’ and that he didn't want the girls going to school with Jews.
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But hey, ex-partners can throw out all sorts of accusations right? So let's listen to a former Breitbart editor and his take on Bannon.
Ben Shapiro said:
I have no evidence that Bannon’s a racist or that he’s an anti-Semite; the Huffington Post’s blaring headline “WHITE NATIONALIST IN THE WHITE HOUSE” is overstated, at the very least. With that said, as I wrote at The Washington Post in August, Bannon has openly embraced the racist and anti-Semitic alt-right — he called his Breitbart “the platform of the alt-right.” Milo Yiannopoulos, the star writer at the site, is an alt-right popularizer, even as he continuously declares with a wink that he’s not a member. The left’s opposition to Trump, and their attempts to declare all Trump support the alt-right have obfuscated what the movement is. The movement isn’t all Trump supporters. It’s not conservatives unsatisfied with Paul Ryan, nor is it people angry at the media. Bannon knows that. He’s a smart man, not an ignorant one. The alt-right, in a nutshell, believes that Western culture is inseparable from European ethnicity. I have no evidence Bannon believes that personally. But he’s happy to pander to those people and make common cause with them in order to transform conservatism into European far-right nationalist populism. That means that the alt-right will cheer Bannon along as he marbles Trump’s speeches with talk of “globalism” — and that Bannon won’t be pushing Trump to dump the racists and anti-Semites who support Trump anytime soon. After all, they love Bannon — actual white supremacists like Peter Brimelow called his August appointment “great news,” and Richard Spencer explained, “Breitbart has elective affinities with the Alt Right, and the Alt Right has clearly influenced Breitbart. In this way, Breitbart has acted as a ‘gateway’ to Alt Right ideas and writers. I don’t think it has done this deliberately; again, it’s a matter of elective affinities.” That doesn’t mean Bannon will push racist or anti-Semitic policy, or that he’ll be anti-Israel himself — unless it serves his interests.
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So hey, maybe he's not a white nationalist, just a guy willing to advance the white nationalist, anti-semite and fascist causes if it helps him get what he wants.
 
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