Charlottesville

And I worry where that leads on a national and international level.

Its GQ, but its a good article on what they actually want to happen.

Bannon famously said he wanted to burn the system down to remake it in his own ideal, but there is also a quote here from trump:

“A lot of people live better without having a job, than with having a job. I’ve had it where you have people and you want to hire them, but they can’t take the job for a period of nine months because they’re doing better now than they would with a job.”

“You know what solves it? When the economy crashes, when the country goes to total hell, and everything is a disaster, then you’ll have riots to go back to where we used to be, when we were great.”

https://www.gq.com/story/steve-bannon-shadow-president

They both want it.
 
Agree with almost all of that! No doubt the chips fell in favour of a divisive, reactionary demagogue like Trump, and even if someone on the opposite side of the spectrum was put in power the problem would exist to a significant degree.

I just think that Trump and Bannon have deliberately exacerbated the problems in the search for power and, even if the tactics haven't been overly sophisticated or successful, they were part of a larger plan to not only capture the hearts and minds of angry Americans, but to exploit them and divide the country further apart. And I worry where that leads on a national and international level.

Yup. Don't disagree with any of that. I share your concerns.

Eureka! It is possible to have an argument in Current Events and find some common ground. Well played, sir.
 
For the record, I actually think trump is as much a true believer as bannon, his entire life is littered with instances of racism and in particular, the idea he is a superior human thanks to genes.

There's no doubt that the Trump clan to some extent believes in social Darwinism and genetic superiority - PBS did a documentary that covered Trump's early years and family, they are very elitist (we got that vibe anyway, no?).

What's ironic is that the majority of his most dedicated supporters are those on the alt-right: poor, down-on-their-luck, Tea Party remnant white folk that are supposedly being taken advantage of by minorities. This is why there is no doubt that the alt-right is merely a pawn being used by the GOP, Trump and conservatives in general - One of the richest, most stubborn, elitist guys in the nation is suddenly the savior of those poor dregs. He doesn't care about you, Nazis! He doesn't care about you, neo-Confederates! He uses you to solidify his power.

Think about this whole "Deep State" nonsense. That BS only started once the Trump administration realized they didn't have overwhelming support of their own party. No longer was it sufficient to blame the just Democrats; the GOP was also impeding the White House... so what did they do? Create the Deep State boogeyman. They are trying to burn down the system as Bannon claimed, but they're forgetting that the whole nation-state apparatus revolves around federal agencies and servants that vouch for the USA in international round-tables. Do they want to do away with the Office of the Trade Representative, the Department of Agriculture, the National Institutes of Health, Department of Commerce, Forestry? All these agencies make the USA what it is as a governing and regulating body - doing away with them would be going back in time. There is no Deep State - it's called normal, functioning, Congressionally-sanctioned government. But I guess easily manipulated, illogical, ignorant neo-Nazis and Confederates wouldn't understand that.
 
Yup. Don't disagree with any of that. I share your concerns.

Eureka! It is possible to have an argument in Current Events and find some common ground. Well played, sir.

Minions_high_five.jpg

Its GQ, but its a good article on what they actually want to happen.

Bannon famously said he wanted to burn the system down to remake it in his own ideal, but there is also a quote here from trump:



https://www.gq.com/story/steve-bannon-shadow-president

They both want it.

Amazing. I still believe in the American political system and people. Both deeply flawed but lots of reason for hope.
 
:lol::lol:

The alt right is full of blubbering man babies

Are you talking about this video?



That's yer man from the Vice documentary. Like a lot of these people, I reckon he's a fairly damaged individual. Tries to act tough to hide a whole bunch of neuroses. The big sap.
 
With the removal of statues accelerating this week it seems the response to the white supremacy march has been pretty successful. Maybe, just maybe, there is something to punching a nazi.
 
Where would you draw the line on your agreement? Is Trump right that there are some very nice people mixing in with the white supremacists?

Blocking paths is done frequently and peacefully. If that causes violence we need to look at who initiated the violence not those who stood.
He probably is right because the white supremacists weren't the only people protesting, there would also have been historians/school teachers/etc, it reminds me of the South Park episode where they all argue about the possibility of the town's historical racist flag being removed, except there they find a compromise that everyone is happy with. It's not racist to want to preserve history, indeed there's anti-racism arguments for wanting to keep reminders of a less noble past in plain view. Blocking the path of the protesters infringed on their right to free speech and their ability to express their beliefs - whether you like them or not - and if you think it wasn't antagonistic then allow me to stand in front of your car door on Monday morning and see if you just meekly walk back inside your house and make alternate transport arrangements.

As stated only yesterday in this thread, the anti protesters DID have permission.
Did they though, the statement you're referring to only mentioned rallies in a completely different area of Charlottesville, not a march to the exact location of the original protesters.

So, not a single death from black power, anarchist, or any other group present in that city.
The claim that they feel threatened is about as credible as claiming the world was at risk from Saddam Hussain.

What exactly did they come for? To cancel speeches by Nazis? Then sure, it isn't legal, and they got it. Did they come to get beat up or run over? I somehow doubt that.
So then the below video is a fake? Micah Johnson's crimes are misinterpreted? The Red Guard don't shadow the white supremacists at every protest? Or should they just not be allowed to exercise their legal right to follow the phrase better safe than sorry?
And you don't come with bear mace, pepper spray, knuckle dusters and bandanas over your faces in peace.

 
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This is pathetic, tbh. Censoring him just for his political views? The guy may be an asshole but as long as he follows the rules of the site, why is it a problem?

There shouldn't be. All these companies are doing this, so they get some positive pr and free publicity.
 
This is pathetic, tbh. Censoring him just for his political views? The guy may be an asshole but as long as he follows the rules of the site, why is it a problem?
There shouldn't be, but all these companies are now looking for some positive publicity.

Maybe their rules say they can boot people off at their own discretion? Many company's do. It's a dating app FFS, not a political amnesty.

It can't be said enough (mostly because people consistently refuse to acknowledge it's blatant simplicity) but the right to free speech and free expression doesn't extend to private industry. It only means you can't be arrested. If a company wants to fire or exclude you for whatever reason, they can. Most contracts stipulate precisely that, with obvious exceptions for racial, religious, gender or age prejudice. Not (I repeat NOT!) political views.

I'm sure we all know (or are) people who've been sacked for a myriad of trivial or personal reasons. Why should "being a Nazi" be more controversial a reason than "consistently stealing Pete's stationary" or "being a dick to Brenda in HR"?.....

I was sacked from an ergonomic chair shop for being hungover. He's a Nazi FFS. A COCKING NAZI!!!
 
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He's on camera tooling around with 4 guns on him, talking about finishing people he dislikes.

And some of you are arguing that a dating site are being petty banning him?

Fecking hell.
 
Maybe their rules say they can't boot people off at their own discretion? Many company's do. It's a dating app FFS, not a political amnesty.

It can't be said enough (mostly because people consistently refuse to acknowledge it's blatant simplicity) but the right to free speech and free expression doesn't extend to private industry. It only means you can't be arrested. If a company wants to fire or exclude you for whatever reason, they can. Most contracts stipulate precisely that. I'm sure we all know (or are) people who've been sacked for a myriad of trivial or personal reasons. Why should "being a Nazi" be more controversial a reason than "consistently stealing Pete's stationary" or "being a dick to Brenda in HR"?.....
It still isn't right, that's the point. It is censorship, doesn't matter if they have the "right" to do it. If a guy doesn't do anything illegal, and follows the site's rules perfectly, but has political views that do not fit the mainstream, should he be ostracized only because of who he supports? 2 days ago I learned about a site named "DailyStormer" getting its domain removed and then getting banned from Google just because of its ideology and some vague association with Charlottesvile. Naturally curious about the site I visited it and it's some edgy teen spouting bullshit.

People shouldn't be punished for their political views and their lives ruined, no matter what they are. I will defend anyone's right to speak as long as that man isn't doing anything violent to support it.

He's on camera tooling around with 4 guns on him, talking about finishing people he dislikes.

And some of you are arguing that a dating site are being petty banning him?

Fecking hell.
Any link to that? If so, then yeah, he should be banned.
 
This is pathetic, tbh. Censoring him just for his political views? The guy may be an asshole but as long as he follows the rules of the site, why is it a problem?

They want money. Up until today I had no idea that Ok Cupid was still a thing.
 
It still isn't right, that's the point. It is censorship, doesn't matter if they have the "right" to do it. If a guy doesn't do anything illegal, and follows the site's rules perfectly, but has political views that do not fit the mainstream, should he be ostracized only because of who he supports? 2 days ago I learned about a site named "DailyStormer" getting its domain removed and then getting banned from Google just because of its ideology and some vague association with Charlottesvile. Naturally curious about the site I visited it and it's some edgy teen spouting bullshit.

People shouldn't be punished for their political views and their lives ruined, no matter what they are. I will defend anyone's right to speak as long as that man isn't doing anything violent to support it.


Any link to that? If so, then yeah, he should be banned.

the vice video - end of it. you can say he may have been given leading questions up to then etc, fake news media have edited shite, make any excuses but that last interview is appalling, he comes off pathetic and psychotic.

these aren't just 'political views, this is a warped ideology akin to the sort of shit that get's spouted by the worst groups in the middle east and should be treated as such. he's got a right to speak but others have the right to ban the sorry bastard based on the torrent of shite he spouts. freedom works both ways.

 
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He probably is right because the white supremacists weren't the only people protesting, there would also have been historians/school teachers/etc, it reminds me of the South Park episode where they all argue about the possibility of the town's historical racist flag being removed, except there they find a compromise that everyone is happy with. It's not racist to want to preserve history, indeed there's anti-racism arguments for wanting to keep reminders of a less noble past in plain view. Blocking the path of the protesters infringed on their right to free speech and their ability to express their beliefs - whether you like them or not - and if you think it wasn't antagonistic then allow me to stand in front of your car door on Monday morning and see if you just meekly walk back inside your house and make alternate transport arrangements.


Did they though, the statement you're referring to only mentioned rallies in a completely different area of Charlottesville, not a march to the exact location of the original protesters.


So then the below video is a fake? Micah Johnson's crimes are misinterpreted? The Red Guard don't shadow the white supremacists at every protest? Or should they just not be allowed to exercise their legal right to follow the phrase better safe than sorry?
And you don't come with bear mace, pepper spray, knuckle dusters and bandanas over your faces in peace.



I thought the statue was being put in a museum, not destroyed. Get real anyway, you know the white power lot aren't there for the statue and want the trouble, they need the attention to grow.

As for how some black nationalists/violently racist armed black guys have been treated - google the bombing of 62nd and Osage Avenue in West Philadelphia. Compare them to the guy at the end of the video I posted in the post above with his collection of firepower.

It seems pretty clear where you stand on this but seriously have a word with yourself why.
 
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It still isn't right, that's the point. It is censorship, doesn't matter if they have the "right" to do it.

It's not censorship. Let me stop you right there. Censorship, as it is, is defined thus...

The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.

And just to break things down a little clearer for you, prohibition is defined as...

The illegality of the manufacturing, storage, transport and sale of items

So no, nothing about stopping a Nazi from joining a privately created dating app is censorous. Nothing. He doesn't have a "right" to join it, anymore than a newbie on RedCafe has the "right" to reach the mains. If he was running for political office and was denied a platform, then yes, that would be censorship. But being kicked off a second hand dating app for being a Nazi, ticks not one single feck given box. You or I could theoretically get kicked off tomorrow (were we on it) for calling someone a cnut, and I doubt you'd give it a second thought, let alone become politically outraged by the implications. So as hills go, "Nazis should be allowed on dating apps" seems a peculiarly rubbish one to die on.

If a guy doesn't do anything illegal, and follows the site's rules perfectly, but has political views that do not fit the mainstream, should he be ostracized only because of who he supports?

Illegality has nothing to do with it. If he'd done something illegal, he'd go to jail. He's just been banned from a dating app. I presume you don't think everyone banned from the Caf is then immediately arrested? Or do you? Because you're essentially arguing that it equates to the same thing. Niall can ban whomever he likes, just as that app can. I know some people got a bit annoyed when Billy Blaggs was canned, but I don't think anyone went as far as to protest the unjust treatment of his human rights.

2 days ago I learned about a site named "DailyStormer" getting its domain removed and then getting banned from Google just because of its ideology and some vague association with Charlottesvile. Naturally curious about the site I visited it and it's some edgy teen spouting bullshit.

It wasn't banned from Google, but it did have its domain retracted. But once again, the domain hoster was a private company (GoDaddy) who presumably have a legal right to terminate things at their own behest. And if they don't, then the guy in question can sue them for unfair treatment. This is where his legal "rights" come in. As it stands atm though, none of these things fall under the banner of censorship, free speech or any concept of inalienable "rights".

There's also the inescapable irony of the people most outraged by the "PC gone mad" culture that's supposedly forcing women and minorities into jobs, gaming reviews and homophobic cake imporiums against their will, turning around and claiming discrimination because other people aren't allowing them fair and unprejudicial access to everything.

People shouldn't be punished for their political views and their lives ruined, no matter what they are. I will defend anyone's right to speak as long as that man isn't doing anything violent to support it.

And ideally neither do I...But there's a contextual difference between peaceful speaking, and marching en masse with flaming torches, in a deliberate show of both intimidation and Klan symbolism, whilst loudly chanting Nazi slogans on a University campus, in a city with a large black population. For my views on the nuances of that, I'd refer you to my post in this thread...
 
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Imagine being upset that a neo Nazi has been kicked off a dating site, barely a week his ilk killed and injured people.

Nazis should be allowed to join Muslim dating sites, if only for the amusement of seeing them try to justify it in relation to affirmative action & the like.

This is big, hilarious irony I feel we're failing to properly highlight. That the angry ideologues marching for the right to be prejudicial, and to end the PC safe space culture they claim to hate, are complaining of being prejudiced against for their identity, and demanding special protection accordingly...

You couldn't make it up. Except we have, and were somehow treating it seriously.
 
It's not censorship. Let me stop you right there. Censorship, as it is, is defined thus...
Actually, it pretty much is:
Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information that may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions. Governments, private organizations and individuals may engage in censorship.

Yes, it is legal censorship as they have the right to, as you said, ban whomever they want, but it is censorship because as far as I know the guy did nothing wrong in the site nor did he break any rules, he was simply banned for his political views.



And just to break things down a little clearer for you, prohibition is defined as...
And?


So no, nothing about stopping a Nazi from joining a privately created dating app is censorous. Nothing. He doesn't have a "right" to join it, anymore than a newbie on RedCafe has the "right" to reach the mains. If he was running for political office and was denied a platform, then yes, that would be censorship. But being kicked off a second hand dating app for being a Nazi, ticks not one single feck given box. You or I could theoretically get kicked off tomorrow (were we on it) for calling someone a cnut, and I doubt you'd give it a second thought, let alone become politically outraged by the implications. So as hills go, "Nazis should be allowed on dating apps" seems a peculiarly rubbish one to die on.
As I said, Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Whether that group is private or not, it's still suppressing the right of the DailyStormer or that guy with the dating app of expressing their opinion. It's not as simple "Yeah, feck that. I'm gonna create my own app for Nazis", or "I'm gonna create my own Google for Nazis. Don't you understand how ridiculous that sounds? Companies are getting way too much power for my liking, tomorrow it's going to be you or me that's going to get censored simply for having a different opinion compared to the mainstream narrative. And that's just not right.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall said it best: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.



Illegality has nothing to do with it. If he'd done something illegal, he'd go to jail. He's just been banned from a dating app. I presume you don't think everyone banned from the Caf is then immediately arrested? Or do you? Because you're essentially arguing that it equates to the same thing. Niall can ban whomever he likes, just as that app can. I know some people got a bit annoyed when Billy Blaggs was canned, but I don't think anyone went as far as to protest the unjust treatment of his human rights.
No, no, no, no... no. That's simply not an accurate comparison. It's more like Niall banning someone on disagreeing with him whether Rooney sucks or not. Not 'illegal' in the law breaking sense but whether he followed the rules of the site. If he did, then banning him is quite strictly censorship that cannot be excused.

It wasn't banned from Google, but it did have its domain retracted. But once again, the domain hoster was a private company (GoDaddy) who presumably have a legal right to terminate things at their own behest. And if they don't, then the guy in question can sue them for unfair treatment. This is where his legal "rights" come in. As it stands atm though, none of these things fall under the banner of censorship, free speech or any concept of inalienable "rights".
Look man, I already told you the definition of "censorship". Whether it is legal or not doesn't matter. Google can tomorrow ban your IP from using it and it'd be considered legal because they are a private company and they can do whatever the hell they like. Would that be okay with you though? How the feck do you define 'censorship' if you not blocking of information from reaching other sources? Because that's what this is, whether you like it or not.


There's also the inescapable irony of the people most outraged by the "PC gone mad" culture that's supposedly forcing women and minorities into jobs, gaming reviews and homophobic cake imporiums against their will, turning around and claiming discrimination because other people aren't allowing them fair and unprejudicial access to everything.
What does this have to do with anything? And it is discrimination, that's for sure. They are blocking people because they do not fit well in the current environment.


And ideally neither do I...But there's a contextual difference between peaceful speaking, and marching en masse with flaming torches, in a deliberate show of both intimidation and Klan symbolism, whilst loudly chanting Nazi slogans on a University campus, in a city with a large black population. For my views on the nuances of that, I'd refer you to my post in this thread...
Is racism against the law in America? As far as I know it's not. And quite frankly I don't care much about what happened in Charlottesville besides the unfortunate death, all I care about is for companies (or anyone else for that matter) to stop censoring people just for having a different opinion than them.
 
It still isn't right, that's the point. It is censorship, doesn't matter if they have the "right" to do it. If a guy doesn't do anything illegal, and follows the site's rules perfectly, but has political views that do not fit the mainstream, should he be ostracized only because of who he supports?

Uh, yes. If he is a fecking nazi.
 
No, no, no, no... no. That's simply not an accurate comparison. It's more like Niall banning someone on disagreeing with him whether Rooney sucks or not. .

No. It's like Niall banning someone for thinking Rooney is from a degenerate mick bloodline who shouldn't have any right playing for an English team. That's what it's like.

Have a fecking word with yourself.

I don't care much about what happened in Charlottesville...

Figures.
 
Uh, yes. If he is a fecking nazi.
I don't get this. So we should ban communists also since they've killed far more people than the Nazis did and they hate anyone who has it better than them? I'm sorry but that's just stupid.

No. It's like Niall banning someone for thinking Rooney is from a degenerate mick bloodline who shouldn't have any right playing for an English team. That's what it's like.

Have a fecking word with yourself.
You have any idea how many fecked up shit is there on the internet and how many fecked up people are using it? By your logic we should ban half the internet users because they are not politically correct. Get real, one thing I agree with these extremist right groups is the right to free speech - anyone should have it, doesn't matter if they are communists, nazis, whatever. Free speech is free speech, it shouldn't be infringed no matter what.
 
I don't get this. So we should ban communists also since they've killed far more people than the Nazis did and they hate anyone who has it better than them? I'm sorry but that's just stupid.


You have any idea how many fecked up shit is there on the internet and how many fecked up people are using it? By your logic we should ban half the internet users because they are not politically correct. Get real, one thing I agree with these extremist right groups is the right to free speech - anyone should have it, doesn't matter if they are communists, nazis, whatever. Free speech is free speech, it shouldn't be infringed no matter what.

Wind your neck in.

Ok Cupid are monetising the news. All companies do it all the damn time.

He either exists as a member on the site and nobody knows, or they do what they did.

Be angry at the company for seeking to make money from the issue. Do not take it to the realm of free speech and censorship because that's not what this is. To believe that it is would mark you out as being supremely naive.