Since he came back into the squad you have looked much better.
Chelsea 2016/17 - Very Content
- Thread starter duffer
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Agree that Cesc should replace Matic against "smaller" sides that defend the entire match. Too risky in a midfield 2 against the big boys, though.
Cesc is definitely staying till summer atleast. His passing range is better than Ozil or even Silva. He unlocks defenses so easily. Pity that he has lost pace. But he should definitely start vs the bus parking teams.
@endless_wheelies posted a good point in the matchday thread about Chelsea's system. The only decent article I found on countering the 3-5-2 was from the Guardian in 2010 when discussing Egypt's use of it:
Have any teams Chelsea faced so far used the 4-2-3-1?
So how should England deal with Egypt's formation?
If England use the 4-2-3-1 that carried them through qualifying, that should cause Egypt problems, providing they can overcome the difficulty of playing against a system they are unused to encountering. The logic of why 3-5-2 struggles to cope with a single striker is most simply put by Nelsinho Baptista, the experienced Brazilian coach who has developed software to explore the weaknesses of one system when matched against another. "Imagine Team A is playing 3-5-2 against Team B with a 4-5-1 that becomes 4-3-3," he said. "So Team A has to commit the wing-backs to deal with Team B's wingers. That means Team A is using five men to deal with three forwards.
"In midfield Team A has three central midfielders against three, so the usual advantage of 3-5-2 against 4-4-2 is lost. Then at the front it is two forwards against four defenders, but the spare defenders are full-backs. One can push into midfield to create an extra man there, while still leaving three v two at the back. So Team B can dominate possession, and also has greater width."
Advertisement
That, though, presupposes a certain quality from the wingers, and the truth is that African football – Egypt, who when fit can call on Mohamed Aboutrika and Mohamed Barakat, aside – is short of creators in general and wide creators in particular. If the winger cannot impose himself on the wing-back, then the wing-back can push the winger back, leaving the opponent's centre-forward isolated. If the wing-back is especially successful, he can effectively drive the opposing winger so far that he effectively occupies the same zone as his own full-back. That then means that the side using 3-5-2 can over-man in central midfield. That happens naturally when 3-5-2 plays 4-4-2, or, against 4-3-3, if the libero can step up to become an auxiliary midfielder, something at which Hany Said is adept.
Notably, in the past two Cup of Nations finals, Egypt's opponents have switched formation to play with a lone forward. In Ghana, Cameroon played a 4-4-2 against Egypt in their first group game, were comprehensively outplayed, and were lucky to lose only 4-2. In the final, they switched to 4-2-3-1, and successfully frustrated Egypt
before a Rigobert Song error gifted them victory. This year, Ghana similarly reshuffled their 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1, and effectively countered Egypt until a late Mohamed Nagui winner. In both cases, Egypt, although the better team, struggled to find any rhythm, and might have been in trouble against sides of greater potency.
If England use the 4-2-3-1 that carried them through qualifying, that should cause Egypt problems, providing they can overcome the difficulty of playing against a system they are unused to encountering. The logic of why 3-5-2 struggles to cope with a single striker is most simply put by Nelsinho Baptista, the experienced Brazilian coach who has developed software to explore the weaknesses of one system when matched against another. "Imagine Team A is playing 3-5-2 against Team B with a 4-5-1 that becomes 4-3-3," he said. "So Team A has to commit the wing-backs to deal with Team B's wingers. That means Team A is using five men to deal with three forwards.
"In midfield Team A has three central midfielders against three, so the usual advantage of 3-5-2 against 4-4-2 is lost. Then at the front it is two forwards against four defenders, but the spare defenders are full-backs. One can push into midfield to create an extra man there, while still leaving three v two at the back. So Team B can dominate possession, and also has greater width."
Advertisement
That, though, presupposes a certain quality from the wingers, and the truth is that African football – Egypt, who when fit can call on Mohamed Aboutrika and Mohamed Barakat, aside – is short of creators in general and wide creators in particular. If the winger cannot impose himself on the wing-back, then the wing-back can push the winger back, leaving the opponent's centre-forward isolated. If the wing-back is especially successful, he can effectively drive the opposing winger so far that he effectively occupies the same zone as his own full-back. That then means that the side using 3-5-2 can over-man in central midfield. That happens naturally when 3-5-2 plays 4-4-2, or, against 4-3-3, if the libero can step up to become an auxiliary midfielder, something at which Hany Said is adept.
Notably, in the past two Cup of Nations finals, Egypt's opponents have switched formation to play with a lone forward. In Ghana, Cameroon played a 4-4-2 against Egypt in their first group game, were comprehensively outplayed, and were lucky to lose only 4-2. In the final, they switched to 4-2-3-1, and successfully frustrated Egypt
before a Rigobert Song error gifted them victory. This year, Ghana similarly reshuffled their 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1, and effectively countered Egypt until a late Mohamed Nagui winner. In both cases, Egypt, although the better team, struggled to find any rhythm, and might have been in trouble against sides of greater potency.
Have any teams Chelsea faced so far used the 4-2-3-1?
I want to see next season with 3 games in 7 days
Too easy now with 1 game/week
Too easy now with 1 game/week
Isn't that what Man United play?
Last edited:
Nope. Sometimes MOTD and Sky Sports show us playing that but it is not accurate. We play a 4-3-3 primarily but everyone kind floats around a fair bit now. Pogba is generally a little higher up in the left channel than Herrera is on the right channel but it's not enough for it to be called 4-2-3-1.
Isn't that what almost everyone plays?
I think Arsenal do but we play a flexible 4-3-3 like United do. Spurs are probably closer to 4-2-3-1 and City play a...well they don't play 4-2-3-1.
4231 and formations in general have evolved so much you can't nail them down any more. Probably the best time for Conte to have introduced his 3-5-2.
Fabregas got his 100th premier league assist yesterday. He's reached 100 faster than anyone...
Fabregas 293 games
Giggs 367 games
Rooney 445 games
Lampard 559 games
He's playing well at the moment but I think Matic will come back in against Spurs.
Fabregas 293 games
Giggs 367 games
Rooney 445 games
Lampard 559 games
He's playing well at the moment but I think Matic will come back in against Spurs.
Cont(e) make it 14 straight wins.
Let's hope this is the start of a rough patch for Chelsea, we pick up another few results and we are right back in it!
Poch basically used a variation of Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 to counter Conte's 343 and in hindsight it makes a lot of sense. If you read this article on Conte's 343 http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/12/25/antonio-contes-3-4-3/
Poch's system today makes a lot of sense. Spurs did a great job setting up to cut off all the passing angles that Chelsea had been relying on and that 3313 mod really matched up well because it let Spurs players sit in zones that naturally helped cut off the passing angles.
Looked bang average tonight and Conte had no plan B.
Did Lloris make a meaningful save? Allowing Eriksen time on the ball to pick a man and being beaten twice by Alli is the air was criminal too.
Did Lloris make a meaningful save? Allowing Eriksen time on the ball to pick a man and being beaten twice by Alli is the air was criminal too.
Very interested to see what we do in the January window.
Batshuayi is off and we're pretty weak in the creativity department.
Still, 5 points clear. Can't really complain.
Batshuayi is off and we're pretty weak in the creativity department.
Still, 5 points clear. Can't really complain.
So we've all gained on them.
Football... bloody hell.
Football... bloody hell.
Had a very good save down low from Costa.
Wow, shocking signing if that's the case.
Looked like they couldn't give a feck tonight.
Merely a blip for Chelsea IMO.
You must be disappointed with how toothless you were? Spurs defended quite well but I don't think they were really pushed all that hard.
Said it in the unpopular thread, don't think they're as good as their run and everyone was making out. They were very lucky with all their players being in form, having no European football and with injuries. Hazard has been on fire this season but was completely anonymous today.
Didn't impress me one bit, neither did Spurs tbh. Another shite top 6 clash.
Hopefully Chelsea implode.
Hopefully Chelsea implode.
Yep. We started the second half well but their second totally killed us.
So, you're Conte and have £60 million to spend this January window. Who do you go for?
Thanks that's interesting. I have to admit I was lost about what Spurs' game plan was but it was enjoyable to watch. Not one Spurs player looked uncomfortable. In fact no Chelsea player did either. It was the perfect silent assassination.
When was the last time a mid-season signing played a big part in a team winning the league?
Or even a big impact for a top team?
Can't think of too many.
As were Leister last season, but you can't take anything away from their title win. Chelsea are top because they deserve to be. Whilst I don't necessarily rate some individuals within the Chelsea squad, Conte has them playing in a system that is both effective and efficient - 13 straight wins and only 15 goals conceded proves that.
Whilst they may not set the world alight, they've accrued more points than another team so far this season, that is all that counts.
They are still the team to beat. The most defensively sound team that almost always score, are going to be title favourites.
Defoe?
Sturridge and Coutinho were on fire as soon as they started. Team was shit but they weren't.
James Rodriguez?
Down for the Conte?
Poch is a disciple of Bielsa so understanding Bielsa's whole tactical systems and his outlook helps to understand Poch who really seems to have translated Bielsa's concepts very well into English football. It helps that he has many players in the right model at Spurs. Here some articles on Bielsa I found. Not the ones I read years ago but still good. I really like el loco myself :
http://www.worldsoccer.com/features/tactics-the-genius-of-el-loco-332698
http://8by8mag.com/el-loco/
http://thefalse9.com/2014/11/marcelo-bielsa-tactics-evolution-from-chile-to-marseille.html
We signed Cuadrado during the january window when we last won the league. I think he picked up the cones and collected the balls after training, so played a reasonably big part in our league win.
You may have a good point about January transfers. I don't think we really need to splurge on huge name players, just a couple more options in the creativity department. I'd personally be happy if he just gave Musonda/Kenedy/Solanke a sniff in the FA cup to see if they could do a job as an option from the bench.
The difference being Leicester slipped up a few times last season but other teams just weren't good enough to capitalise. This season is a completely different ball game, the top 6 are all right behind each-other, any little slip up and the ladder could look completely different in a few weeks.
I don't see Hazard being able to keep this form up over a whole season, couldn't even manage to get arsed against Spurs today.