We went to three at the back when they came on, how is that not a plan b?
Chelsea 2016/17 - Very Content
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
@Treble_Winning on some form tonight
Imagine if Chelsea lose the next 5 games. @Treble_Winning will be using this thread as porn material.
I'd argue the actual opposite.
For Conte to do what he has done with the players he had is something pretty darn special. It's almost like Fergie winning the league that year with Cleverly and Anderson as first choice central midfielders. Look at Conte's squad. It's a very good core mixed in with some decent players, average players and some players who should not be playing for top six team or should have left or retired a long time ago.
His defense for example consists of decent but not great Gary Cahill, John Terry who should be writing his own will right now, Ivanovic who is old and hasn't been at his best since 2012, a bang average left back who was playing for a bang average Serie A side and a decent fullback who is playing at centre back. Also Victor Moses, a decent premier league winger playing the wing back role and David Luiz. Yet Chelsea have been almost impossible to score against. He's made two very average wing backs, Moses and Alonso look like Abidal and Alves in their primes, with Alonso a rock at left wing back and Moses bombing forward providing width on the right hand side.
His midfield consists of Fabreges and Matic who had the worst season of their entire careers last year and a newly bought Kante. Yet Fabregas and Kante have formed a formidable partnership that somehow protects the fragile looking defense (on paper that is) as well as provide opportunities going forward and having a control of the game. Other than these three, their next midfield choice is Jon Obi Mikel (!). It's not like Chelsea are wrecking with depth here. Fabregas under Conte has developed a fantastic defensive minded game aswell that somehow makes up for his lack of mobility and physicality.
Hazard and Costa had awful seasons last year but this season they look like two of the best players in the league. Costa, who has never been the most technically inspiring has suddenly looked a new player this season. Chuck in Pedro/Willian and you have the making of a very potent attack. Who have they got as backup? Err, a 20 year old Belgian unproven striker in his first season in the Premier League. That's it. Yet they're doing what other teams simply can't.
Compare Chelsea's squad, on paper atleast, with ours.
Terry, Cahill, Luiz, Azpiliceuta as your centre backs or Bailey, Smalling, Rojo, Jones, Blind?
Moses, Alonso and Ivanovic or Shaw, Valencia, Darmian and Blind?
What about midfield? Mikel, Matic, Kante, Fabregas or Carrick, Pogba, Herrera, Scheniderlein, Fellaini, Schweinsteiger?
In attack Chelsea have Hazard, Costa, Willian, Pedro and Batyshuai? We have Ibrahimovic, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Rashford, Lingard, Depay, Rooney and Mata.
There's not a part of the Chelsea team which, on paper, is better than ours. Our attack has infinetely more depth to it as does our midfield.
Yet Chelsea have been performing much better than we have, with performances much more confident and assured than ours. So what does that say?
Conte is basically a genius.
For Conte to do what he has done with the players he had is something pretty darn special. It's almost like Fergie winning the league that year with Cleverly and Anderson as first choice central midfielders. Look at Conte's squad. It's a very good core mixed in with some decent players, average players and some players who should not be playing for top six team or should have left or retired a long time ago.
His defense for example consists of decent but not great Gary Cahill, John Terry who should be writing his own will right now, Ivanovic who is old and hasn't been at his best since 2012, a bang average left back who was playing for a bang average Serie A side and a decent fullback who is playing at centre back. Also Victor Moses, a decent premier league winger playing the wing back role and David Luiz. Yet Chelsea have been almost impossible to score against. He's made two very average wing backs, Moses and Alonso look like Abidal and Alves in their primes, with Alonso a rock at left wing back and Moses bombing forward providing width on the right hand side.
His midfield consists of Fabreges and Matic who had the worst season of their entire careers last year and a newly bought Kante. Yet Fabregas and Kante have formed a formidable partnership that somehow protects the fragile looking defense (on paper that is) as well as provide opportunities going forward and having a control of the game. Other than these three, their next midfield choice is Jon Obi Mikel (!). It's not like Chelsea are wrecking with depth here. Fabregas under Conte has developed a fantastic defensive minded game aswell that somehow makes up for his lack of mobility and physicality.
Hazard and Costa had awful seasons last year but this season they look like two of the best players in the league. Costa, who has never been the most technically inspiring has suddenly looked a new player this season. Chuck in Pedro/Willian and you have the making of a very potent attack. Who have they got as backup? Err, a 20 year old Belgian unproven striker in his first season in the Premier League. That's it. Yet they're doing what other teams simply can't.
Compare Chelsea's squad, on paper atleast, with ours.
Terry, Cahill, Luiz, Azpiliceuta as your centre backs or Bailey, Smalling, Rojo, Jones, Blind?
Moses, Alonso and Ivanovic or Shaw, Valencia, Darmian and Blind?
What about midfield? Mikel, Matic, Kante, Fabregas or Carrick, Pogba, Herrera, Scheniderlein, Fellaini, Schweinsteiger?
In attack Chelsea have Hazard, Costa, Willian, Pedro and Batyshuai? We have Ibrahimovic, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Rashford, Lingard, Depay, Rooney and Mata.
There's not a part of the Chelsea team which, on paper, is better than ours. Our attack has infinetely more depth to it as does our midfield.
Yet Chelsea have been performing much better than we have, with performances much more confident and assured than ours. So what does that say?
Conte is basically a genius.
That loss was due to individual errors as well as a refereeing decision, Luiz should have been sent off in the first half which would have led to UTD playing against ten men for around one hour.
It was not due to Jose's tactical mistakes.
As I've said, if and when Jose gets tactically outclassed, I will call a spade a spade and say so.
However, I have yet to see it happen, and I doubt it will happen.
Wow, someone changed the thread title specifically to troll me. Thanks, I shall consider it a high honour and compliment.
Some of you may agree with my examples and I will admit that of course there is some subjective bias in my posts (as it is with almost anyone's posts) but my point was that Conte was tactically outclassed and his formation, which no one had an answer to, has finally been successfully stifled. The degree to which Chelsea were stifled was shocking.
And towards that end I believe that Conte's inexperience has showed. He didn't have a Plan B. More experienced managers at the top level, such as Mourinho, have been seen to have changed their systems from game to game and even within a game, as he showed against Boro and West Ham. He changed the tactics and formation, not just the personnel, and it won us both games. I'd say that Mourinho has won 4 points in the last 2 games for us, perhaps even 5 points.
That makes a difference.
Some of you may agree with my examples and I will admit that of course there is some subjective bias in my posts (as it is with almost anyone's posts) but my point was that Conte was tactically outclassed and his formation, which no one had an answer to, has finally been successfully stifled. The degree to which Chelsea were stifled was shocking.
And towards that end I believe that Conte's inexperience has showed. He didn't have a Plan B. More experienced managers at the top level, such as Mourinho, have been seen to have changed their systems from game to game and even within a game, as he showed against Boro and West Ham. He changed the tactics and formation, not just the personnel, and it won us both games. I'd say that Mourinho has won 4 points in the last 2 games for us, perhaps even 5 points.
That makes a difference.
The premise of the argument is insane though, has to be said. That Conte has been found out after having just fallen short of equalling the best winning streak in PL history? It's madness.
The biggest thing I got out of this match is that we have the best midfield in the league with Herrera/Pogba/Carrick.
That's way I saw it as well. Fair play to poch but that game could have went either way quite easily. It was hardly a definitive result or performance when it comes to judging either manager.
Winning 2-0 against a team who had 10 men for 80 minutes isn't a tactical masterclass.
In fact if Antonio had kept his head Utd might well have lost that game.
Though I'd never call it a masterclass, the idea is that the changes in system and players is what is considered the 'masterclass', not the actual result. It's a game we may have drawn but for Mourinho's clever changes. That's it, no hyperbole.
This thread has been inundated with moronic posts. First that treble fella, now the second worst Spud poster in history rears his ugly head. Joy.
Conte is a great manager. There is a tier above him which is reserved for the best, which is winning the League consistently and the CL.
Some of the things being said here is utter rubbish.
Some of the things being said here is utter rubbish.
The thread new title 
And then you popped in to complete the hatrick.
Touché
Chelsea looked very average to me. Shocked how they went down with such little fight. Conte didn't seem to have any answers.
Credit to spurs for that but a wake up call to anyone who thought Chelsea where something special.
Credit to spurs for that but a wake up call to anyone who thought Chelsea where something special.
Or United may have won the game regardless
Very true and probably would have, 75 minutes is way too long to play with 10 men, it's a Herculean task against one of the better teams in the league.
They are not average but I couldn't believe how long their run was going for. When they had the Tottenham and City back to back games they got outplayed in both and yet somehow came out winners.
I knew Tottenham would outplay them on Wednesday and was more worried if they would take their chances.
I never claimed it was a tactical master class. I merely said that he has shown a willingness and ability to adapt his tactics to the situation. Between games and even within a game. Basically it means he has a Plan B.
Conte on the other hand has one plan and he doesn't know what to do when someone else specifically sets up to counter his plan (as no doubt more teams are going to do now).
That shows his lack of experience and tactical naïveté in comparison to Mourinho.
Which is essentially what I've been saying all along.
He did change the system with subbing in Willian for Alonso. It's just that obviously we dont have the quality like mata or Fellaini on our bench as plan B. Conte doesnt seem to trust Batshuayi at all. See him leaving on loan. And as per plan B, we do have one. Introducing Fabregas. When Cesc doesn't play, our set pieces are hogwash. He is the only one who can deliver good crosses in the box. Plus his vision of passing and finding Costa has already led to 3-4 goals for us this season after coming on as a sub. What annoyed me was as to why he decided to bring on Cesc so late. He should have come in at 60 mins.
I think with the run of decisions that haven't run our way we were due one eventually.
A lot has been made of the tackle not being a red card but he was out of control and it was a lunge if he had caught Jones standing leg it would have been much worse and everybody would have been saying red for sure. But not the worst I have seen but also not a good one and yellow would have been fair but I can see why Dean gave the red albeit harsh.
I think the run of form both clubs were in United would have been favourites to go on and win the game regardless, it's not like a last gasp penalty or decision went our way that totally changed the outcome.
Judging by the game itself though even with ten men I'd say West Ham were probably edging the first half.
True. But I think we lost a bit of focus after that red, as if we thought the win had become inevitable. Luckily thanks to Antonio's finishing it then did.
First 15 mins is always scrappy with trying to win territory rather than the ball at times. Judging the game against ten men is irrelevant as it is a whole new set of circumstances. But if you really want to then I don't think West Ham edged it with ten either.
I do think Conte was attempting to change the game through his substitutions bringing on attackers and changing the style somewhat.
What I can't believe is that Spurs actually had the tactical nous and didn't show the naivity we've been known for to get drawn in.
Essentially, from what I saw, Chelsea were trying to turn the game into a back and forth counter-attack battle. With quick pace and the ball going back and forth quickly and Spurs just didn't get drawn in. We just didn't flood forward and instead decided to continue to press and probe with the ball, maintaining possession, and not really move out of position to allow for good counter-attack opportunities from Chelsea.
Firstly - it is pure ignorant bullshit. Have you ever seen one of his teams before he joined the Chelsea?
Secondly, you are being a fecking petulant child in this thread. Conte equals the record for games won before losing away to a top 4 team and your reaction is basically 'oh, mourinho never gets praise, but Conte gets a lot. But mourinho is so much better and experienced. why aren't people talking about how much better mourinho is. Also klopp also gets praise. also not better than mourinho. Conte should apologise to the fans for losing a game.'
Take a five year break from the caf, grow facial hair, lose your virginity and only then cautiously try making another post here.
I didn't see the spurs game the other night, but I'm with you on this bit.
Earlier in the year when they went behind he looked lost akin to a child in the supermarket with no idea where their mum is
The turn around in results was incredible but maybe the crux of it is he lacks the ability to adapt tactical in the moment
That said could just be a one off
Calm down man, the guy is only voicing his opinion, which is the whole point of having a forum.Yeah you really make out to seem like the mature one.
I highly doubt Conte's been "exposed". Away to Spurs lots of teams will lose. Chelsea had a good spell in the start of the 2nd half where they should have equalized, they weren't stifled for the whole 90 mins.
Look guys. Agree or disagree, no personal insults are necessary. I am heartened by the fact that there are plenty of UTD fans on here who agree with my views, but of course, anyone who is pro-UTD and refuses to concede the title race is branded as "delusional" by the defeatist, woe-is-me brigade.
My argument is simple. Conte is inexperienced and tactically naive. His playing style initially caught everyone by surprise because such tactics were never before widely adopted in England. But now, managers have caught on. Four goals conceded in two games are a sure sign of vulnerability. The fact that they were completely stifled by Spurs, and failed to react, shows that Conte might be out of his depth.
Mourinho is far more experienced and is much more adaptable tactically. That is something I believe no one can really dispute.
And for all of Conte's "success" in the immediate short term past (he has won nothing outside Italy as of yet) please do not forget that it was Mourinho who bequeathed him with players such as Costa, Fabregas, Hazard, Courtois, Pedro, Willian, Matic etc. He has had a much easier job than people realize. Maybe Conte should be a little more grateful and humble. He should not have acted all cocky towards Mourinho earlier in the season.
Mourinho actually won the league with these players. The jury is still out on whether Conte can do the same. Until he does, he has proven nothing, and even if he does, he has some way to go before equaling Mourinho's track record both in England and overall.
My argument is simple. Conte is inexperienced and tactically naive. His playing style initially caught everyone by surprise because such tactics were never before widely adopted in England. But now, managers have caught on. Four goals conceded in two games are a sure sign of vulnerability. The fact that they were completely stifled by Spurs, and failed to react, shows that Conte might be out of his depth.
Mourinho is far more experienced and is much more adaptable tactically. That is something I believe no one can really dispute.
And for all of Conte's "success" in the immediate short term past (he has won nothing outside Italy as of yet) please do not forget that it was Mourinho who bequeathed him with players such as Costa, Fabregas, Hazard, Courtois, Pedro, Willian, Matic etc. He has had a much easier job than people realize. Maybe Conte should be a little more grateful and humble. He should not have acted all cocky towards Mourinho earlier in the season.
Mourinho actually won the league with these players. The jury is still out on whether Conte can do the same. Until he does, he has proven nothing, and even if he does, he has some way to go before equaling Mourinho's track record both in England and overall.
The illegitimacy is your sample size.
They have 1 defeat in 14 and conceded 2 goals in a row for 2 games. just 2 games. So because 2 sides have scored 2 goals, it means all managers (all 19 of them) have caught on? cool.
The fact that they were completely stifled by Spurs.... well maybe because spurs are a strong side playing at home. Was Jose out of his debt when Chelsea beat us 4-0 and we looked lost in possession? We have beaten a similar standard of teams as Chelsea recently, and should we lose away to Arsenal or City, I wouldn't claim that we have been "found out". its just silly. click bait. You could be a journo.
If I was Conte I would not be humble as when I took over. Chelsea squad was on its knees. They had the worse title defence in History and the mentality was rock bottom. Kind of like when Van Gaal came after Moyes. You now have to lift a troubled squad with many players who were probably on the cusp of leaving (Costa). Football isn't all about technique. The squad mentality or mind-set in the camp is bigger. When Conte came, the atmosphere must've been weird. He even lamented this early on when they lost a couple of games. He knew he had a job to do.
Anyways this campaign isn't about Conte vs Jose. If Conte wins the league, a simple "well done and good luck next season" will do. Who cares if Jose has a better record in England? It isn't really a rebuttal. None of those titles are United titles. All I want is titles at United and Jose to build a dynasty here.
peace
The reason people keep laughing at you, is because posts like this (and various others) are very silly. The idea that United could come back and win the title isn't particularly silly, it's a real long shot but far crazier things have happened in football. The idea that Antonio Conte is 'inexperienced' and 'out of his depth' however is very silly to the point of being nonsensical. A bit like your claim the other day that despite Chelsea not conceding a single headed goal all season and having 3 of the back 5 well over 6' tall that we were 'vulnerable to set pieces' because of a lack of height.
Oh and 4 goals in 2 goals might have been a sign of vulnerability, if you completely ignore the fact we'd only conceded 2 in 12 prior to the Stoke game.
You seem like an enthusiastic United fan and fair play to you, but if you keep making these sweeping claims that are not backed up by actual evidence, people are inevitably going to give you grief for it.
Or it was a bad day at the office, something that happens to everyone and every managers.
As soon as I pointed out that you would be vulnerable to aerial attacks, you concede two headed goals and lose to Spurs. They dominated you physically because of the sheer size and strength of their players. Azpilicueta and Moses could not cope - just as I predicted.
If I was more arrogant I would claim to be prescient. I'm not. But I did call it - the deficiencies were glaringly obvious and it was only a matter of time before someone figured it out and used it to their advantage.
Hasn't Conte won 43 of his last 50 league games as a manager?
The idea that he's been found out because his Chelsea side lost to a very good Spurs side is incredibly knee-jerk. Chelsea are still clear favourites for the title.
The idea that he's been found out because his Chelsea side lost to a very good Spurs side is incredibly knee-jerk. Chelsea are still clear favourites for the title.
I don't think I've read more delusional set of posts from anyone on this forum!