Hope they continue on a downward spiral in the next few weeks and confidence is rock bottom by the time they play us.
Chelsea 2017/18 thread - FA Cup Champs, League chumps
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Yet they hardly play in the first team. I mean sure to claim you should close the academy is crazy, but the point about youth stands.
Agreed I don't think people are saying there isn't a problem but rather that it isn't as bad as some people make out. Loftus cheek this year has played well but he does have a solitary goal and no assists so its most likely more promise than substance atm. Ake hasn't been too great for Bournemouth, Solanke hasn't shown anything at Liverpool.
Zouma was only loaned due to the fact he's just come off the back of a horrendous injury and needs gametime. So in hindsight bar Tammy which players have shown they should've stayed at the club.
What is happening at Chelsea? There is no reason for them to sack Conte. Their start has been a bit shaky but there's still a long way to go. They had a bad start last season too before they went on that amazing 13-game winning streak. The club should be fully backing the manager at this point.
Yes, and they won't. Not yet, at least. Media sensationalism as perusual.
Unrest due to bad start and due to previous issues with manager always easy to sell the story. Most of the valid Chelsea sources haven't confirmed anything in regards to him leaving soon or us thinking about sacking him. At the moment I'm not too worried due to it being Duncan Castles, but I will be if somebody credible backs it up.
Almost all top clubs have academy players in their squad, that play important roles. Chelsea have one (Christensen) and he became the player he is in Gladbach. He is also at the very start of his career, so no point in really talking about him yet. Was there anyone else but Terry during the last 15 years (genuine question)?
That's terrible even for a top club, especially when the youth teams are talented. Loaning players to develop them is beneficial in specific situations, but during the years when players can make their breakthrough, they need stability and a close relationship with the club. Usually they don't get either on loans. Loans without clear perspective are sink-or-swim and unsurprisingly even the talented youngsters "sink" more often than not.
I also doubt that this loan business is making a large profit. After all the club has still to pay for infrastructure, coaches, organisation, fees, wages and what not.
Obviously shutting down the youth teams isn't a serious idea.
Yeah I am in agreement that there has been a problem in general, tbh I'm more focusing on the examples of players currently. Yeah I guess my point is the path is still there for the footballer if there good enough but rather than be accelerated through the club and have chances within our squad as I say there chance they get is to prove themselves when there on loan.
I do understand about the close relationship and what you are saying, but my point is more that Chelsea are only ever going to give chances to the most talented players that prove themselves, and if your unable to shine in a mid table/lower end team and actually stand out, then its very likely your going to be not close to the ability to play in the first XI.
As for academy players in there team who make a valuable contribution, I would say United have some and always have done, Liverpool klopp seems to really like the idea of the youth and bringing them through.
Spurs tend to do it because they are not financially able to compete and arsenal might do tend to bring them through but tbh (again thinking about currently/last few years) most of them tend to be shite and not good enough to actually play for them but yet they continue to because they are English/through the academy. So yeah as you say Us and City who don't really have any come through, which I don't necessarily agree with at all but then between them two teams they have won the last 3 out of 4 premier leagues
I don't think the media have suggested he'll get fired during the season, just that he probably won't be there for next season.
You don't need media to come up with the stories to know that al is not well with Conte. He is not animated on the sidelines anymore as he used to be. Seems clear as day that he is not as invested in the job as he generally has been.
On the players being not happy, I wouldn't blame them. The overlords have basically mandated Conte to deliver the goods with fewer and fewer resources so he is bound to crack the whip on the players. Obviously they will resent him for that.
I just hope that this time Abrahmovic does the correct thing and fires granovskia and emenalo along with Conte too.
I'm not saying its all rosey, just that there is a big difference between unrest and him leaving/being sacked. Conte does not need to be sacked if they keep the faith he can turn this around and there wont be a better candidate to come in and do the job. So it would be so pointless.
Of course Granovskia and Emenalo need to be sacked there the most hated people at the club and for good reason as there both pretty appaling at there jobs. But this is all hypothetical and wont happen anyway as they have shown someone they are always safe from the wrath of Roman.
Anyway long story short if your a Chelsea fan and you think it would be correct to sack conte then your an idiot, simple.
If that's the case, then your players should be ashamed. When will they stop hiding behind the managers back, first they hid behind Jose and now they are hiding behind Conte. I hate when players do that, many of United players after sir alex retired did that. Unfortunately this has become a trend now. Not going right, let us hide behind the manager and let him take all the flak.
No. Its quite profitable. A lot of money gets covered through the loan fees and the loan clubs (other than Vitesse) also pay a big part of the wages most of the time.
Regarding the infrastructure, coaches, overheads. Those expense heads were going to have to be paid for the youth intake anyways. The only additional staffing for the loan network is a couple of scouts that track the performances and some support folk who help players getting settles. All this would be pocket change if you calculate the real outputs of the loan system.
Here's a few examples of the financial gains.
Lukaku: bought for somewhere around £15m, total loan fee received £4.5m (wages covered by the loan club), sold for £28m. Profit (undiscounted) over the 3 seasons £17.5m.
Courtois: bought for £7m, total loan fees over 3 seasons £5.5m (wages covered by loan club), market value when returned to Chelsea (about) £20m.
Zouma: bought for £12m, loan fee received £7m (again wages covered), current market value (minimum) £30m.
There are ofcourse so many others who have turned a profit like Ake, De Bruyne, Christenses, Traore etc. Of course these are just the star players who could have made it at Chelsea too.
The others who could never make the Chelsea first team are not a losing proposition too. Ones like Pasalic, Van Ginkel, Piazon, Kalas, Omerou and Atsu covered their transfer fees back in loan fees alone. Essentially club now owns those players for free.
Then there are players who came through the academy and have not gotten anywhere yet, ones like Todd Kane and Jamal Blackman. While these players probably wont make it at championship clubs either let alone Chelsea. The club is doing a great thing with them by helping them right until the mid 20s. Even if does cost the club something like £10k/week for such players, it does send a message to promising 8-12 year olds that even if they don't make it by 18 they wont be shit right out of the system like it is at say United or Liverpool. Its a fine gesture on its own as well if the intangible benefit was not enough.
People who are uninformed about the club (and even a lot of fans) just assume that Abrahmovic is throwing his money around where as it couldn't be farther from the truth. Everything he has done with Chelsea up until now has made him money.
I think it is stupid to be judgemental of players in this regard. Firstly, players at every other club are like that as well these days. Secondly, it is in human nature to seek comfort, why would they run themselves into the ground every week when they know that they will be picked next week regardless.
I don't blame Jose one bit for losing his dressing room at Chelsea. The fault lies with the board who did not give Jose an alternative to Costa or Hazard or Oscar.
As I said, this has become a general trend. I understand sacking a manager is more sensible than say sacking whole staff and team but players have to take responsibility. Players have full right to be frustrated and question club's ambition but to hind behind the manager and moan and try to seek comfort because they have to put extra shift as the club did not buy substitutes for them, well never agree with that sort of thing. Not only with players but with any other employee in any other field. Express your opinions but do not hide behind your Boss when things are not going well.
Its not the case here. They manager and the team were setup to fail this season by the board, AGAIN. I do see your point but its rather idealistic and I don't see it happening (with good results) even at my day job let alone at an elite football club.
Which is why I started my original post by saying "if that's the case". I am saying board does not have any blame, maybe they must take the most of the blame but point still remains, players must also take responsibility like every other person associated to the club.
How does he have the nerve to complain about the amount of games? He had an easy ride last season and seems to be on the verge of a breakdown. Hopefully sooner rather than later as the guy is a complete bellend.
Chelsea have moved on from throwing money at everything and the owner is thinking more long term. They cannot have a net spend of 100m+ every season like us, thats why Conte was not backed in the transfer market, Chelsea do not have the financial power without Abramovich to do that.
Antonio Conte says Chelsea's playing schedule is impossible
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-says-chelseas-playing-schedule-is-impossible
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-says-chelseas-playing-schedule-is-impossible
Chelsea are a strange club, win the league under Mourinho then perform poorly the next season. Win the league under Conte then start performing poorly the next season (not to the extent of under Mou but still). It has to be down to the players they have.
Im strangely looking forward to the United game. Jose will likely sit off us like Simeone did and give us time and space to play which suits us down to the ground. It's when team's come at us and press us relentlessly we crumble (even last season it was a problem), im dreading the Roma away game and especially Anfield.
Not getting your targets is not an excuse to then go on and fight relegation. Spurs have had 2 meh summer windows in a row yet you don't see Poch acting like an idiot, he's got on with it and Spurs are reaping the reward's.
Poch is not expected to win the league and reach cup finals every year like Chelsea managers are expected to. If Poch tried to get the spurs team to over-perform month after month most spurs players will tell him to get fecked as well. Jose just broke the team because he was made to go on max rev just like Conte is being forced to.
He can rotate the squad. Bloody excuses. Maybe he should join a bottom half club that don't play in europe so he can play less matches. Or he can play the reserves in champions league.
I don't believe that for a second, and even if it was true there is no excusing Jose having us fighting relegation.
Wondering how will he react during Christmas time? I am actually quite surprised by his constant moaning as I feel he should have been the first guy to know they will play extra games this season. I do not know why he is acting so surprised, maybe he is trying to send a message to the Board.
You really think Chelsea would have stayed in relegation battle the whole season? The players just wanted Mourinho gone. Let's say Chelsea higher up staying backing the head coach till the end, it's unlikely a clubs with same quality as Chelsea would be there. They may axe the underperformed starting XI and have their loanee back and promoting some youngsters. Those guys would be hungry for their chance and want to impress. Those same guy would be good enough.
Not the only and first case, you see quality teams stay in bottom half until the coaches sacked, then they starting picking up and within short amount of time reaching high level again. You should be able to find examples for yourself, right?
Win title without Europe, add some games in Europe and moan fiesta starts. He spouts similar shit like JM did last season. It seems managers are really clueless when it comes to squad rotation and resting their players. On top of that Chelsea have 250 players on loan.
We’ll lose to Watford, we just have no midfield at this point
SAF did rotate and it worked out. Zidane rotates a lot and no surprise Real Madrid last spring was so fresh and got into top form for the big champions league games.
I hope Mourinho has learned something now. Although last season we managed to win the europa league in the end though so he managed it.
Getting the squad depth should be no problem with all the money these clubs have.
I don't like him, but at the same time can't fault him much.
Their board really fecked up the team in the transfer market. They did it before with Jose and I'm sure it'll get repeated with every successful manager they get from now on.
Chelsea's board aren't really as good as they were before. They don't want to spend or support the manager anymore.
I disagree they don't want to spend. They ain't the absolute top spender, but even the last couple seasons, they spent over 100mil each. The problem is same old problem with the board having different view than the head coaches. Not getting coaches' first choice, getting alternative instead or simply push their own signings into the team
100m in the market isn't really as high as it was some years ago. Even Everton spent nearly 100m this summer as well.
They bought players in exchange of other players : Got Morata and sold Costa, got Bakayoko and sold Matic. That's hardly something you can call it reinforcing the team. They didn't increase the squad depth nor did they reinforce the team with more versatile players, nope. They just left everything as it was last season.
So they just randomly decided they wanted a change and were going to practically throw games until they did? Shy characters like Ramires, Cahill, Oscar Hazard, Azpilicueta, Matic, Zouma and Remy starting a crusade against one of the most volatile manager's about after a huge triumph? it's so ridiculous, even imagining those names above rebeling is hilarious, there's more chance of Trump, Kim Jong Un and Hilary Clinton running the UN together in perfect harmony. The Madrid squad or even our 04-12 core you can just about imagine it, but our 15/16 squad? Not a chance, 90% of them wouldn't say boo to a goose.
There's a reason manager's usually bare the brunt of bad results, because they are usually the main man responsible, some cases it's because of awful tactics, other cases it's bad management, in Jose's case in 2015 it was both. I also believe manager's should get equal huge credit for success, the form/quality of a manager makes or break's a team in my opinion, Spurs and Everton the two current example's at different ends of the scale.
There's a few exception's like our team that got to Moscow under Avram but 99 times out of 100 the manager is the dealbreaker.
That's one thing i do agree with you on. If it wasn't for that stupid Torres transfer in 2011, we would have smashed our record three times summer just gone, the narrative they didn't support Conte is laughable. I know the net spend was low but most of the income through transfer's was us cashing in on the loan army or squad players who wanted first team action elsewhere, the only real player we sold who Conte wanted to keep was Matic.
Raised my eyebrows at Contes comments about an impossible schedule. Really?
I've seen this before...
I am not at all assuming that abrahmovic is throwing money at the club. Imo Chelsea is financially sound and profitable.
I am just disputing the youth academy makes a relevant profit compared to your turnover.
It's far more profitable when the academy creates players that the club can make good use off.
The most important job of the academy is to develop players for your own team and thats just not happening. The fact that Chelsea fans need to big up their academy by pointing at the profitability is just highlighting the lack of success when it comes to producing players for your team.
Other top teams both in the EPL and in other leagues are able to integrate players from their academy into their first team. (Or they buy young players from other academies and create the conditions where they can progress to first team regulars)
How many players (transferred or from the academy) had their breakthrough at chelsea? I can't think of a single one in the last 10 years. In fact even players like lukaku and kdb who already showed quality, couldn't make it, highlights the problem.
My initial point was that sending young players on one loan after the other is a pretty terrible strategy that doesn't work.
Chelsea lacks the squad depth. They can make do keeping Matic, D.Costa... These guys pushed for a move, which Chelsea board decided to cash in. In Matic case, Conte didn't look like he's happy. They couldn't land Danilo, Llorente, Barkley, Alex Sandro... or they're closer to 200mil.
You talk as if you know these player personally and know what they do in different circumstances. Bayern went from 1 CL short of making treble to near relegated positions the next season. Sacking LVG, they went onto wrap CL place and make 2 consecutive CL finals with one was Treble. Kroos doesn't look like rebellious yet he couldn't make do with LVG. Lahm is respectable character, but in the end couldn't pull his weight as the team heading downward spiral. Oh and our Scholes was known as shy and didn't like being on TV in his playing days. Turn out he was absolute weapon as a pundit after retirement. Submissive character is not always good. You don't know who they submit. They may turn on one person when they are being influenced into thinking this person is wrong and other is right. 10% would be more than enough to influence the rest.
I've them down to draw tomorrow. Watford seem in better form.