feck. Thank god he’s gone
Chelsea 2017/18 thread - FA Cup Champs, League chumps
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
and you have proof of this?
Celebration time!! The last stain of Avram Grant has been removed with the booting (disguised as a resignation) of this girls’ Football coach. Now Roman needs to rise up and appoint a real Football director whom Conte can work with.
congratulations on losing a cancer Chelsea fans
This is a really interesting development that I didn't see coming. Something has been going on behind the scenes and I suspect Conte is behind this move. I don't think anybody can be absolutely sure of what Emanalo really did at Chelsea but if he had control of the transfer budget over the last 10 years he did a better job than Utd in building a squad. Look at the players Chelsea have at their disposal. Courtois, Azpilicueta, Cante, Fabregas, Hazard, Morata. All of those players would walk into most premier league teams. You could add Pedro, Luiz, Willian, Matic and many others into that mix and argue that the squad has been very strong for a long time. Most Chelsea fans will not like this view but it's hard to argue against when nobody really knows who bought who. Chelsea's problems appear to have been with player power.
The problem I see disappearing now is that the manager can really start to take control of the whole squad and have more power over the team. This is a blow to player power. Players who might disagree with the managers tactics no longer have the option to sit on the bench and wait for the manager to be moved on. They will now be thinking this manager could finish my career if I don't tow the line. The likes of Costa and Luiz cannot initiate dressing room unrest and think I'll go behind the managers back or wait for him to be sacked. It will change the whole mentality in the dressing room. This latest sign of player power from Luiz may well have been the straw that broke Emanalos back. I suspect that Conte may have said it's me or him. The introduction of Christensen over Luiz at the weekend proved he knows what he is doing and can take control of the dressing room.
This move away from Emanalo will only work if they give Conte control of the transfer budget. Unfortunately I've got a nagging feeling this may not happen. Roman has a history of interfering and Emanalo was his stooge. Conte's hand will be weakened if the teams inconsistency continues so lets hope the players buy into the new set up and we go on a winning run.
The problem I see disappearing now is that the manager can really start to take control of the whole squad and have more power over the team. This is a blow to player power. Players who might disagree with the managers tactics no longer have the option to sit on the bench and wait for the manager to be moved on. They will now be thinking this manager could finish my career if I don't tow the line. The likes of Costa and Luiz cannot initiate dressing room unrest and think I'll go behind the managers back or wait for him to be sacked. It will change the whole mentality in the dressing room. This latest sign of player power from Luiz may well have been the straw that broke Emanalos back. I suspect that Conte may have said it's me or him. The introduction of Christensen over Luiz at the weekend proved he knows what he is doing and can take control of the dressing room.
This move away from Emanalo will only work if they give Conte control of the transfer budget. Unfortunately I've got a nagging feeling this may not happen. Roman has a history of interfering and Emanalo was his stooge. Conte's hand will be weakened if the teams inconsistency continues so lets hope the players buy into the new set up and we go on a winning run.
The transfers have been becoming shitter and shitter by the season. When was the last time we found a Courtois or an Azpilicueta? Whenever we have tried to get a bargain its been a Dijlobodji. The good players that have been bought have always been for fair value or higher in these last three seasons.
Even if the same structure is maintained, the club can find a better emenalo than the one we had.
Mourinho was largely at fault for those transfers. Left it last minute.
Is this a joke?
Mou told them to get Stones in March and they kept dossing about till end of August.
Under Conte we have made positive deadline day deals, it's not a coincidence. Jose quite clearly stated Stones and Pogba or bust whereas Conte had contigency plans, im sure Zappacosta wasn't even plan D, but he's sloted in relitevely nicely.
He's young and probably will be a solid player, but his performance against United was very bad.
His vision and decision making in the final third are shocking.
Zappacosta is total tripe and we paid a fortune for him. Even Luiz is not worth the money paid for him and Drinkwater hasn't done anything to prove his worth.
Its totally daft to declare these deals positive when one (Alonso) out of four is an established success.
After the game, I can only say Kante is the main difference.
He really is a phenomenal player isn't he? I've been waiting for his inevitable drop in performances, as I thought he was a flash in the pan, but he's proven me wrong.
Carried the ball wonderfully. Did exactly all the things expected out of a Box 2 Box. Got into positions that Lampard himself would have been proud of.
I totally agree that his decision making in the final 3rd along with his shot needs massive improvement, but to call his performance "very bad" has to be a joke. Totally dominated and suppressed the united Mid. And Like i mentioned above, the dangerous positions he got into was immense. Nonetheless, very impressed with him.
This partnership will only work if the third CM is a creative passer, like a younger version of Fabregas.
Not necessarily. If they can play a high pressing game, they could make do without a creative CM. Think that was Conte's main plan when he went for Baka. WB aren't physical enough for that and Conte doesn't seem to trust his CBs enough to play a high line and leave them 1vs1 with the strikers
Kante is very important to them.
Also the attacking onus is on them less as a pair as the additional player would be pedro or willian wide right to offer Morata support.
Two questions to the Chelsea fans: Is the final third interplay/fluidity under Conte remarkably different from the one under Mourinho, and if so in what ways? And is there a difference in the way the team's build up play works?
Hard to compare to the first Jose era as players were so different and the game has changed a bit since then in terms of tactics. So basing it off his most recent spell with us, at points in the first season we played really nice football but I felt like this was more due to the flair players we had who were all dynamic and moved a lot than Jose himself.
Having Cesc in midfield enabled it all really as the first year he came back to us he dominated and made our play creative, in the league in the first half of it we played some good stuff, however in Europe and in the complete second half of the league we played really awful gutless football.
We became extremely rigid in attack and relied purely on Hazard or other individuals for moments of brilliance rather than good attacking play.
With Conte I like our style of play, the movement is fluid when we go forward and so is the interpassing between the players, admittedly I would like us to have more possesion than we do but that could be something that we look to rectify with the move to 3-5-2. Last year I enjoyed our style of play. Our build up is certainly different but then we know have ball playing defenders in Luiz, Christensen, Azpi, who are all decent on the ball.
My two points would be;
I enjoy the football we play under Conte more now than under Jose.
Jose style of play has seemingly got worse as the year have gone on and more negative.
Jose said no such thing. It was ENTIRELY the board’s fault in buying Djilobdoji and Hector.
So do we give the board credit for signing Fabregas and Costa too? When it comes to transfers, Chelsea managers seem to get a free pass. They get credit for good buys and are absolved of any blame for bad ones.
Agree with all of this. The one thing I’d like to add is that our passing is quicker under Conte. Either Carragher or Neville pointed it out post match on Sunday. The players know what to do with the ball and know where his teammates are going to be. How United played Sunday and how Chelsea used to play were eerily similar: indecisiveness, slow to react, slow to recycle.
@Don _ Conte
Yeah, it was Mou's second spell I was thinking of. Thanks.
Yeah, it was Mou's second spell I was thinking of. Thanks.
Jose could still turn it around though especially now you have Matic you should be able to commit a lot more players forward due to him holding and shielding the defence. Always though Jose biggest weakness of all was being stubborn, just because he had success using certain players or formations it meant he would continue in the vein.
Conte was going down the same path this week had he played Fabregas in the middle as a 2 and had dave at wingback again but he showed some versatility.
The one thing I will say about your attack but its purely my opinion, is your players are such a random group of skillsets, whereas with us going forward I think Pedro Hazard Morata and Fabregas are all players who gel and want to play in a similar manner.
You have a striker that thrives of service from wide and balls in behind, yet two wide players that both want to get in behind themselves and don't tend to put many crosses in. You also have Mhki who is a similar player imo to the mould of hazard pedro etc who is looking for quick movement and passing inbetween the lines, but that doesn't particularly suit the strengths of your other players.
Even when you looked really menacing at the beginning of the year I kind of felt like your goals weren't coming through the players gelling and all playing in a similar manner but just individually due to the quality of those players if that makes sense.
@Don _ Conte
Agree about Chelsea's forward line + Fabregas being a great fit collectively, and choosing Morata as the new CF was absolutely vital this summer, imo. (Regardless of how that decision came about.) It would be great to see a gradual development towards a more dominant style in the future, but that would perhaps require an upgrade on the wingback positions.
Regarding United's offensive, I think there is unused potential in Mata, Mkhitaryan, Martial and Rashford, perhaps also Lingard, when it comes to quicker interplay. But it would have to be developed systematically, both on an individual and collective level. Mourinho may have other priorities. But I'm also still not sure how to get the best out of Lukaku in combination with that group.
Not a United fan, btw
Agree about Chelsea's forward line + Fabregas being a great fit collectively, and choosing Morata as the new CF was absolutely vital this summer, imo. (Regardless of how that decision came about.) It would be great to see a gradual development towards a more dominant style in the future, but that would perhaps require an upgrade on the wingback positions.
Regarding United's offensive, I think there is unused potential in Mata, Mkhitaryan, Martial and Rashford, perhaps also Lingard, when it comes to quicker interplay. But it would have to be developed systematically, both on an individual and collective level. Mourinho may have other priorities. But I'm also still not sure how to get the best out of Lukaku in combination with that group.
Not a United fan, btw
@Don _ Conte
Agree about Chelsea's forward line + Fabregas being a great fit collectively, and choosing Morata as the new CF was absolutely vital this summer, imo. (Regardless of how that decision came about.) It would be great to see a gradual development towards a more dominant style in the future, but that would perhaps require an upgrade on the wingback positions.
Regarding United's offensive, I think there is unused potential in Mata, Mkhitaryan, Martial and Rashford, perhaps also Lingard, when it comes to quicker interplay. But it would have to be developed systematically, both on an individual and collective level. Mourinho may have other priorities. But I'm also still not sure how to get the best out of Lukaku in combination with that group.
Not a United fan, btw
Yeah I agree Morata was vital I think it will take a while for him and Hazard to really hit there potential together but for me there constantly improving. I think Lukaku would've scored for us but definitely would've been a square peg/round hole situation.
In regards to the style of play I genuinely think 3-5-2 should be the long term plan and should be what we work towards. 3-4-3 would be fine against lower teams as long as the 2 was baka and kante.
I actually really dont mind Moses & Zappa as our options I think they both offer different things, its more Alonso side im more concerned about but I think Kenedy is being underused at the moment and hopefully Baba will be an option come January.
Are you a Chelsea fan?
Also if there was one united player I could take it would definitely be Martial, I think conte would get a lot out of him and he could swap with Hazard in the 3-5-2 sometimes or play on the opposite side, that would be quite something!
No, I just love football and tend to watch the teams with my favourite players. And the high profile stuff, of course. At Chelsea I particular like Hazard, Morata & Christensen. The latter two I already followed at Real & Gladbach, so I was delighted that they team up with Eden this season, and in a strong side that has a fitting role for them.
I think 3-5-1-1 can only be the plan if the 3 MFs stay in the form they put on display Sunday. However we've played like that several times and IMO we've looked bad more often than good. I know it's not the type of players they are, but Kante and Bakayoko really have to step up their offensive abilities if that's the way forward. Bakayoko has missed sitters with his head and feet and we can't afford that. Anything to take the pressure off of Hazard helps. The freedom he has in this formation is fantastic. The fact, long term, we could potentially be starting games with both Pedro and Willian on the bench only shows our dire need for another forward.
I don't mind Zappacosta, he seems to show off a burst of pace going forward sometimes and he's a proactive defender. Moses is a passive defender, and I hate it!
So why did we have no plan B's under Jose but did and then some under Conte? The board were the same on both occasions, the only difference was the manager. The board spent a record fee for a backup keeper because Jose asked for that, he also asked for Falcao and got him. He could have asked for Alderwierld and Witsel and would have probably have got them, and those 4 plus Pedro would have represented a very good window.
However don't get me wrong, im not claiming the board a were blameless that summer, however for the entirety of Roman's era everytime our manager's do something stupid it's apparently the boards fault and not there's. Yes like the board got outsmarted by Roy off all people, the board lashed out atEva, the board ignored a hungry Sturridge in favour of a washed up Malouda, the board gave training sessions so bad the players became unfit etc etc...
Yes the board does get that credit. Chelsea managers or rather coaches have no final say in transfers. It’s hilarious and tragic to see how the Board continuously miss out on prime targets like Sandro.
What a bunch of tripe.
Your allegations have zero proof regarding Mourinho having no other transfer targets and yet you are sounding off about it like it’s holy writ.
The board doesn’t get any of it’s prime targets ie Sandro, Koulibaly, etc because it wants to penny pinch end of story. Yet it demands its coaches to win titles and trophies. A net spend of 3 million pounds in 2017 yet it wants Conte to challenge in Europe? You are having a laugh. Get used to being another Arsenal or Liverpool because that’s what the club will be when Conte gets fed up and walks away next year.
100% agreed. Falsely justifying deadline signings (which shouldn't even happen in the first place) by claiming they have been positive is laughable and smacks of trying to be a Board defender.
Our transfer dealings the last couple of years have definitely been a bit hit and miss, but I'm not sure Sandro and Koulibaly are the best examples of not emptying our pockets. In the summer we had (if you believe the media) offers of around £60m rejected for Sandro, and bids around £50m for Koulibaly rejected the summer before. These transfers would've broken or equalled world record transfer sums for their respective positions, and as such I don't think missing out on them can be counted as a result of penny pinching. The board should however receive criticism for leaving the bids late in the transfer window. Offering these sums to Juve and Napoli in early July as opposed to late August increases the likelihood of getting them by about a million percent as they get reasonable time to reinvest the money. On the other hand I guess that kind of could count as penny pinching as they try to hit the bare minimum of what Juve and Napoli would accept and as a result of that the time in the transfer window ran out. But if I remember correctly the opening offers were relatively fair for both players.
As the club has become a bit more pennywise the last couple of years I'm a bit baffled by how late we've left some transfers recently. Two summers ago we bought Alonso late in the window, and this year it was Zappacosta and Drinkwater. Although good players to have in the squad (and in Alonso's case a very capable wing back), I can't help but think they would've been significantly cheaper had they been bought earlier in the summer. A bit inexplicable that a backup left wing back wasn't lined up in case the Sandro deal didn't go through, but that's for another post.
If you are asking about Jose's 2nd phase, in one word - YES. The play is tremendously different.
For one thing, we have far more and better pressers. Jose tried pressing with Costa, Oscar, Hazard, Willian/pedro. With Matic and Cesc behind them. Both of them have issues with mobility which normally left massive gaps between the AMs and Cms. In 2015-16 teams really exposed us on that thing. In 2014-15, when we won the league, after the spurs game, we played a very low block which stopped this from happening.
As for general play, during the Jose phase, we had no width. Hazard and willian usually found themselves playing further in and with Jose's reluctance to use the FBs in attack (especially azpi on the left to cover for hazard), we were normally over reliant on one man providing the impetus to our attack: Eden Hazard. He literally carried us individually from Jan 2015 to May 2015 and to the title. The cesc and Costa partnership was another aspect of creativity and goal scoring oppurtunities, but again it was more down to individualistic abilities than the role of the system.
Currently we press better because of numbers as well as personnel (mainly kante), we have far more width to our play through the wing backs and in attack, we can often see azpi joining the mid and providing numbers in the mid as well as that ball into the box to Morata. Width and Azpi are the main reasons for our number of headed goals getting increased exponentially.
You can say we are overly reliant on Kante, but I dont agree with it. We have had to play with Cesc in a mid 2 when Kante is unavailble. And cesc's defensive nuance would make Pogba look like Makelele. In attack we miss hazard, but we are not dependent on him. I see a same pattern of it at united where the whole attacking system is built around one man.
No I think we're definitely too dependent on Hazard and Kante.
Someone like Draxler or that Savic kid would elevate this team.
Someone like Draxler or that Savic kid would elevate this team.
Yeah, the second spell. Very insightful reply, but I didn't quite get the last two sentences: Do you mean United's dependence on Pogba is much bigger than today's Chelsea's on Hazard, and closer to Chelsea's dependence on Hazard under Mou?
I agree. Based on last season I thought some genuine playmaker types would be a good addition to the squad. As a prospective Fabregas heir, Ruben Neves might be a fitting candidate, but tbh I only know him from youtube comps, so I can't really say.
The latter.
The attacking impetus provided by Pogba to the current Utd team is as important as Hazard to the Jose's 2.0 Chelsea, in a very different way mind you. I also think that Jose is taking Utd in the right direction, as in building a team. Or atleast far more than what he did to us in his second spell. At times (specially in the 2nd half of 2014-15) we literally looked like a 1-man attack force. Currently for United, Pogba seems to be that guy, but in the right way. He gels the team together, controls the mid (like a world class midfielder should) and gives an attacking impetus. A world class/great winger is what United/Jose would be looking for in the future to take United to the next level.
As for chelsea, Its actually shocking (in hindsight), that we were so depended on one player given the squad Jose inherited: Kdb, Mata, Oscar, Hazard, Moses. In his first year itself, Jose got Schurrle and Willian (2 wingers who you would very much define as "Jose wingers"). Then we went out and got Salah, Cuadrado and Pedro at different points. Cesc is a major creative force too. Just feel that Jose had made a couple of massive gambles (mainly on Oscar over KDB and Mata), which ended up going very poorly.
Oh the irony.
What i says has not a great deal of concrete proof maybe, but what im doing going by what i feel accessing the information i have got access too. But you say i have no proof, where is your proof they DEMAND to win titles? Where is your proof of the board conspiracies you an other peddle? But while you are here, why do you think we signed good players on deadline day under Conte but didn't under Jose?
Also to add further to the point about net spend, it's as low as it is due to us selling our loan army player's that never made that many waves at first team level.
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Look at the sacking record. No trophies = sacking of coaches. That's not a conspiracy - it's what the Board demands. What good players were signed on deadline day? Also, why must they be done on deadline day instead of earlier in the summer so that Conte can bed the players in his tactics?
You "access to information" is basically your opinion which is to absolve blame from the Board and cook up some imaginary notion that Mourinho had no other transfer targets besides Stones and Pogba.