City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[terraloo]

In any other sport do they allow a team to be under investigation whilst continuing to compete? In that time they have won a treble and about to win the league a record 4 years in a row. It's made a mockery of the entire sport. Surely lack of co-operation alone should of had them suspended, pending investigation. That way they would want to actively co-operative.

If anything the Premier League, and football authorities in general, need to make their rules stricter and clearer for compliance and punish accordingly. Manchester City are not too big to fail. Plenty of big clubs have had set backs in the past. Look at Schalke now or Dortmund in the early 2000s. They need to be punished for disobeying rules that everyone else has stuck to, and the fact that so many clubs have spent beyond their means to chase them. They have caused huge financial issues across the Premier League, and wider Europe inflating the market.

The only issue that is delaying things is the fact a State is behind the legal action blocking the investigation. That is precisely why they should never have been allowed to purchase a football club. The Premier League for me has been completely ruined. Non-United fans seem to be waking up now that Liverpool and Arsenal have lost the title with record points on the table.

As I said earlier I am no fan of City but please the investigation was concluded months ago and the charges are waiting to be dealt with at an IC. the stage we are at is no different to legal process where all sorts of legal arguments are being thrown in and if anyone thought this case was going to be concluded in less than. A couple of years then sorry they are naive

You talk about not allowing clubs to participate whilst under investigation would that include say Chelsea because as we know there is an active investigation or what about Utd and Newcastle who both have notes in their accounts about being under investigation by HMRC ? Ah you will say in the two Utd cases that’s not football authorities but almost certainty if the tax authorities prove their case in all probability both clubs will have not adhered to FA regulations re payments to players.

Finally we have to honour the concept of presumed innocent to proven guilty and suspending a club prior to the IC rules would simply be wrong on so many levels but as we know even when UEFA, FIFA or indeed any sporting governing body rules any sanction/ ban or whatever handed down is near enough always suspended any appeal almost certainly will mean that the sanction is suspended

 

[terraloo]

When you know what Everton and Nottm Forest have been sanctioned with for a tiny fraction of that, and how quickly that was processed, it’s strange and puzzling how long it is taking.

It was processed under an accelerated procedure voted by the clubs and the charges both faced were single and although said to be complex were far more simple to rule on

 

[vanrooney]

As I said earlier I am no fan of City but please the investigation was concluded months ago and the charges are waiting to be dealt with at an IC. the stage we are at is no different to legal process where all sorts of legal arguments are being thrown in and if anyone thought this case was going to be concluded in less than. A couple of years then sorry they are naive

You talk about not allowing clubs to participate whilst under investigation would that include say Chelsea because as we know there is an active investigation or what about Utd and Newcastle who both have notes in their accounts about being under investigation by HMRC ? Ah you will say in the two Utd cases that’s not football authorities but almost certainty if the tax authorities prove their case in all probability both clubs will have not adhered to FA regulations re payments to players.

Finally we have to honour the concept of presumed innocent to proven guilty and suspending a club prior to the IC rules would simply be wrong on so many levels but as we know even when UEFA, FIFA or indeed any sporting governing body rules any sanction/ ban or whatever handed down is near enough always suspended any appeal almost certainly will mean that the sanction is suspended

I think that’s a fair assessment in general. The one point that makes city’s charges totally different is, that it’s obvious to everyone with one eye that they cheated themselves to glory. Or is there any doubt that their money, especially in the beginning of their journey, came exclusively from their owners and all the income from sponsors was not at arms length. Who would have sponsored a nowbody with hundreds of millions if it wasn’t his own project.
the problem is, that courts are working very slowly and at the time there is a final verdict it will be too late as city has allready ruined the game and got themselves to a level where they are sustainable

 

[Marching On!]

I am far from a City supporter but the PL has to operate within the laid down process and that process has to be in accord with English Law.
You say that city are still failing to provide information and that maybe be correct but have you assumed that to be the case or is it just your take on things?
As we know this is an extremely complicated case and having been involved with investigations and trying then to firstly identify the extent of your case and then deal with inevitable challenges at every stage I can tell you they can take an eternity.

You can’t be serious

 

[Sassy Colin]

Since Wolves can put forward a proposal to get rid of VAR, I don't know why United, Arsenal and Liverpool all don't get together to propose City are removed from the PL.

They ought to be able to get the support of all those clubs who have missed out on European competitions and so revenue, by being pushed an extra place down the league by a bunch of cheating cnuts. In addition, Nottingham Forest and Everton, whose charges were dealt with in 10 minutes, yet nothing is done about City. All the teams who were relegated, missing out on PL revenue for 1 or more seasons, and have since come back up, who wouldn't have been relegated in the first place. You only need 13 teams to support it.

They add nothing to the league, so they won't be missed by anyone.

 

[terraloo]

I think that’s a fair assessment in general. The one point that makes city’s charges totally different is, that it’s obvious to everyone with one eye that they cheated themselves to glory. Or is there any doubt that their money, especially in the beginning of their journey, came exclusively from their owners and all the income from sponsors was not at arms length. Who would have sponsored a nowbody with hundreds of millions if it wasn’t his own project.
the problem is, that courts are working very slowly and at the time there is a final verdict it will be too late as city has allready ruined the game and got themselves to a level where they are sustainable

As I say I worked in investigations where it was beyond doubt that the entity / individual was guilty as sin but proving it wasnt always a given.
What we do know is UEFa rushed their case to the point they were so convinced that their case was cast iron they not only took short cuts they didn’t even factor in the sort of challenges that Cities legal team threw in .
There is a vast difference between the UEFa the CAS process and indeed the fact that this process will be under English law as opposed to Swiss Law where an inference can be taken from not releasing documents, engaging with the process etc whereas in Switzerland it can’t.
There is a lot of suggestion on here that City still withold documents that may or may not be so but my guess is that if by the time the panel have issued their directions and if it gets to a hearing the non compliance aspects will in themselves be heavily sanctioned

 

[RedRocket9908]

Is it just a coincidence that multiple different media outlets have begun talking about this again at the same time or is something happening?

Ive just been reading an article in thr MEN that said City face a £350m+ compensation payout to other clubs if found guilty so if the charges stick things could get really messy for them.

 

[terraloo]

Is it just a coincidence that multiple different media outlets have begun talking about this again at the same time or is something happening?

Ive just been reading an article in thr MEN that said City face a £350m+ compensation payout to other clubs if found guilty so if the charges stick things could get really messy for them.

They are talking about it because they, City, are on the cusp of winning the PL again and by so doing set another record .

Any claims to compensation would be dealt with in accord with PL rules in effect via arbitration. Its impossible to quantify what sort of awards, if any would be made so for effect MEN have just thrown a number out there to get more clicks as it were

 

[MrMarcello]

When you know what Everton and Nottm Forest have been sanctioned with for a tiny fraction of that, and how quickly that was processed, it’s strange and puzzling how long it is taking.

Not really. This occurs in legal processes involving large companies and corporations accused of crimes and misdealings whereas smaller firms with singular to a handful of chargers are dealt with quicker, especially when firms cooperate. For example, Enron legal process took like five years to conclude all proceedings and they had dozens of charges to dispute covering various executives, one exec had 98 charges alone. And that was fairly straight forward with plenty of documents available and a trail of obvious crimes. Not sure if those execs attempted to delay and block stuff ala City.

Edit: I should also add in the little nugget that this legal process also includes a sports league taking a STATE to court.

 

[MrMarcello]

Since Wolves can put forward a proposal to get rid of VAR, I don't know why United, Arsenal and Liverpool all don't get together to propose City are removed from the PL.

They ought to be able to get the support of all those clubs who have missed out on European competitions and so revenue, by being pushed an extra place down the league by a bunch of cheating cnuts. In addition, Nottingham Forest and Everton, whose charges were dealt with in 10 minutes, yet nothing is done about City. All the teams who were relegated, missing out on PL revenue for 1 or more seasons, and have since come back up, who wouldn't have been relegated in the first place. You only need 13 teams to support it.

They add nothing to the league, so they won't be missed by anyone.

It appears the rules do allow such but curious if the clubs actually care to do so, or afraid of legal backlash as City would rain legal fire down on everyone. Personally, I would love it, luv'it!, if the clubs did so this summer.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...icked-out-points-deduction-financial-breaches
Under section W.51.4, the commission can 'suspend a respondent [club] from playing in league matches or any matches in competitions which form part of the Games Programmes'. They're also able to 'deduct points scored or to be scored in league matches or such other matches'.

But most damning is their ability to 'recommend that the league expels the respondent from membership'. If it is recommended by the commission that City be expelled, a general meeting will be held by all members of the league.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ity-REJECTED-EFL-expelled-Premier-League.html

 

[terraloo]

You can’t be serious

Deadly serious. It’s a simple question

 

[tomaldinho1]

Interesting idea if they are found guilty which is picking up traction now of them repaying the other PL clubs (for the years they are found guilty) for the central payments that are shared out each year. That wouldn't take into account the big losses of European money for some teams but the figure is estimated at £350m between PL clubs and former PL clubs. Figure seems way too high to be realistic but it's the right kind of thing people should be looking at, how to help the other teams who have lost out.

 

[terraloo]

It appears the rules do allow such but curious if the clubs actually care to do so, or afraid of legal backlash as City would rain legal fire down on everyone. Personally, I would love it, luv'it!, if the clubs did so this summer.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...icked-out-points-deduction-financial-breaches
Under section W.51.4, the commission can 'suspend a respondent [club] from playing in league matches or any matches in competitions which form part of the Games Programmes'. They're also able to 'deduct points scored or to be scored in league matches or such other matches'.

But most damning is their ability to 'recommend that the league expels the respondent from membership'. If it is recommended by the commission that City be expelled, a general meeting will be held by all members of the league.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ity-REJECTED-EFL-expelled-Premier-League.html

Following a recommendation made by IC could then yes it could indeed lead to a special resolution being put to the clubs such a resolution would require a 75% majority but that route could only happen following a ruling but a disciplinary commission can only be appointed following a charge being issued by the PL.
It is possible that the clubs could make a request under the PLarbitration provisions to rule on certain matters but that route almost certainly wouldn’t achieve even a recommendation re explusion.
Back to the process of a special resolution ( I think Wolves is a simple resolution as opposed to a special resolution) a club or clubs could propose expulsion and the same 75% majority would be required but without there being an outcome from a commission I just can’t see that ever happening

 

[711]

As I say I worked in investigations where it was beyond doubt that the entity / individual was guilty as sin but proving it wasnt always a given.

Post Office?

 

[terraloo]

Post Office?

Early on in my working life I did actually work for Post Office Counters. As a 17 year old it was an unbelievably hard job but no my background of investigations was taxation.

 

[Gambit]

When you know what Everton and Nottm Forest have been sanctioned with for a tiny fraction of that, and how quickly that was processed, it’s strange and puzzling how long it is taking.

I think its because if they are to be given the same amount of punishment per charge as would be fair, they will be deducted points out of existence of the professional football game ( -1150 points )

 

[tomaldinho1]

When you know what Everton and Nottm Forest have been sanctioned with for a tiny fraction of that, and how quickly that was processed, it’s strange and puzzling how long it is taking.

It's not at all, City are being accused of fraud on a scale never seen before in the PL, it goes way beyond simply looking at a balance sheet and saying if a club were over an FFP limit. Everton, Forest, United (we got a fine), Chelsea etc. are all simple cases because the only accusation is going over a very tangible limit in terms of what you can spend.

 

[Fortitude]

It's not at all, City are being accused of fraud on a scale never seen before in the PL, it goes way beyond simply looking at a balance sheet and saying if a club were over an FFP limit. Everton, Forest, United (we got a fine), Chelsea etc. are all simple cases because the only accusation is going over a very tangible limit in terms of what you can spend.

Sport, surely?

 

[croadyman]

Heard it mentioned once that the UAE have HUGE investments in the UK and have pressured the UK government to make this go away, or those investments will go elsewhere. Therefore the UK gov have been pressuring the PL/FA to let it go. All allegedly of course

Wouldnt be surprised if they got off with a slap on the wrists. (if its true theres 'powers that be' looking after them)

Yeah I am convinced that's exactly what's happening and quite frankly it's utterly disgraceful

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sport, surely?

I'm not well versed enough to know but the biggest I know of in football, that's for sure.

 

[croadyman]

Since Wolves can put forward a proposal to get rid of VAR, I don't know why United, Arsenal and Liverpool all don't get together to propose City are removed from the PL.

They ought to be able to get the support of all those clubs who have missed out on European competitions and so revenue, by being pushed an extra place down the league by a bunch of cheating cnuts. In addition, Nottingham Forest and Everton, whose charges were dealt with in 10 minutes, yet nothing is done about City. All the teams who were relegated, missing out on PL revenue for 1 or more seasons, and have since come back up, who wouldn't have been relegated in the first place. You only need 13 teams to support it.

They add nothing to the league, so they won't be missed by anyone.

We know that's never gonna happen in a million years,it's frustrating because wish the other big clubs in this league felt stronger about this

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Since Wolves can put forward a proposal to get rid of VAR, I don't know why United, Arsenal and Liverpool all don't get together to propose City are removed from the PL.

They ought to be able to get the support of all those clubs who have missed out on European competitions and so revenue, by being pushed an extra place down the league by a bunch of cheating cnuts. In addition, Nottingham Forest and Everton, whose charges were dealt with in 10 minutes, yet nothing is done about City. All the teams who were relegated, missing out on PL revenue for 1 or more seasons, and have since come back up, who wouldn't have been relegated in the first place. You only need 13 teams to support it.

They add nothing to the league, so they won't be missed by anyone.

Their legal team would immediately claim that was an attempt to influence the outcome of the case against them.

The best thing all clubs can do right now is say nothing.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Heard it mentioned once that the UAE have HUGE investments in the UK and have pressured the UK government to make this go away, or those investments will go elsewhere. Therefore the UK gov have been pressuring the PL/FA to let it go. All allegedly of course

The UK government recently blocked an attempt from a Shiekh Mansoor backed UAE group from buying one of the UK's biggest media outlets so im not sure they would be pressured in to getting involved in this over threats of then withdrawing investment.

 

[Lewnited]

I'll maintain I really don't think there's a chance they get off without serious punishment, even if the route there isn't neccessarily linear.

The ones that hold the most power in domestic football are the clubs themselves. Replace the ~15 household names with random football teams and have them compete in the Premier League; it's dead in a week. The Super League debacle proved exactly this.

All 19 clubs are feeling very real financial implications as a result of the EPL's tighter rules around spending, some like Forest and Everton receiving punishment beyond financial. The very same set of rules that City have entirly swerved. That's before even thinking about missed revenue through competition qualification and league placements.

If the EPL do try to sweep this under the rug, I don't see way that the EPL clubs don't take serious issue.

 

[croadyman]

The UK government recently blocked an attempt from a Shiekh Mansoor backed UAE group from buying one of the UK's biggest media outlets so im not sure they would be pressured in to getting involved in this over threats of then withdrawing investment.

Hmmm we will see on that I guess

 

[thisisnottaken1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ckv7g3d4j0do

Pep claims that world football will “respect” City. Absolute bollocks.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ckv7g3d4j0do

Pep claims that world football will “respect” City. Absolute bollocks.

Give it rest fella, no ones interested.

 

[croadyman]

Give it rest fella, no ones interested.

This proves he knows people don't validate them and there is a damn good reason for that

 

[90 + 5min]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ckv7g3d4j0do

Pep claims that world football will “respect” City. Absolute bollocks.

Problem for him is that nobody cares. Nobody is taking it serious. At least not until everything about charges is solved. He can win few more league trophies but there is that dark cloud hanging over that clubs head.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Give it rest fella, no ones interested.

The media are the ones that keep bringing such topics up. He was asked about it, what exactly is he supposed to say?

 

[Changeisgood]

All these actions by the PL are overdue by two decades+. Their ineptitude that let Abramovich buy Chelsea caused directly and indirectly all this mess. They know they have to do something now, but the problem is too big. It's a bit like cycling and doping. They let it happen. There is I am sure the traditional doping problems as well but we have the added problem of financial doping that I am not aure we will ever remotely get rid of.

What would happen if Newcastle get charged tomorrow? How long would that process take? How many diplomatic considerations are in there?

 

[Greyfog]

Nobody cares...how do you guys do it?
How do you type and type, create threads after thread, post after post for something you don't care about?
It's crazy to me.

Why would the owners of the other PL clubs, business men with interests in different areas not just football go up against City owners?

Some of them might have had direct dealings with UAE. UAE might have information that the authorities will be interested in regarding some of their dealings/investments. A lifelong fan turned club owner might but not these rich greedy business men.

 

[Maluco]

Nobody cares...how do you guys do it?
How do you type and type, create threads after thread, post after post for something you don't care about?
It's crazy to me.

Why would the owners of the other PL clubs, business men with interests in different areas not just football go up against City owners?

Some of them might have had direct dealings with UAE. UAE might have information that the authorities will be interested in regarding some of their dealings/investments. A lifelong fan turned club owner might but not these rich greedy business men.

You can not respect or care about their footballing achievements, while still being wholly frustrated and angry with that they are doing to the game. This should be quite an obvious distinction.

 

[Sandikan]

Nobody cares...how do you guys do it?
How do you type and type, create threads after thread, post after post for something you don't care about?
It's crazy to me.

Why would the owners of the other PL clubs, business men with interests in different areas not just football go up against City owners?

Some of them might have had direct dealings with UAE. UAE might have information that the authorities will be interested in regarding some of their dealings/investments. A lifelong fan turned club owner might but not these rich greedy business men.

No-one cares about their fake achievements.
Everyone cares about them getting punished.

Got it?

 

[Greyfog]

You can not respect or care about their footballing achievements, while still being wholly frustrated and angry with that they are doing to the game. This should be quite an obvious distinction.

Not obvious to me but I get your point.
If it made me angry and frustrated and I wasn't in a position to do anything about. I won't be in threads making posts after postd about it like it will make a difference other than making me more angry and frustrated.

 

[Fortitude]

Not obvious to me but I get your point.
If it made me angry and frustrated and I wasn't in a position to do anything about. I won't be in threads making posts after postd about it like it will make a difference other than making me more angry and frustrated.

This isn't a thread that should ever die until they are brought to justice. In fact, it should be stickied.

 

[Greyfog]

No-one cares about their fake achievements.
Everyone cares about them getting punished.

Got it?

Got it.
Keep crying about it. One day justice will prevail.

 

[Greyfog]

This isn't a thread that should ever die until they are brought to justice. In fact, it should be stickied.

Billboard and placards should be erected at Old T. Match going fans should wear tops with 115 charges on it when attending games against City

 

[Fortitude]

Billboard and placards should be erected at Old T. Match going fans should wear tops with 115 charges on it when attending games against City

Or? They should just continue to make a mockery of the sport unabated?

 

[JagUTD]

Is it just a coincidence that multiple different media outlets have begun talking about this again at the same time or is something happening?

Ive just been reading an article in thr MEN that said City face a £350m+ compensation payout to other clubs if found guilty so if the charges stick things could get really messy for them.

Could be that bellend Keys has given others confidence to actually speak up on the matter.

It's also interesting that given the historic possibility of a 4th consecutive title, there's not that much noise around it all things considered. Almost as it there's a sense of nervousness from City.