City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[Red in STL]

I have read that CAS do not have the power to intervene in this case.

Yes that is correct

 

[Fts 74]

I think there is another factor to be considered when considering the likelihood of a decent punishment being handed out and that is the spectre of the European Super League.

What most people missed at the time was that the ESL wasn't just a cash-grab by the top clubs, it was also a reaction from the 'establishment' (Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Real, United, Liverpool etc...) to the oil/state owned clubs.

Remember how City and PSG were so reluctant to sign up? They basically got put in a position whereby signing-up would mean accepting really tight FFP rules OR sitting out and no longer competing at the top level of European football.

We're going to get to the point whereby if City (and PSG) are allowed to get away with cheating, then the historical 'big clubs' will simply take their ball away - and the Premier League will fear this.

On another note, I was also disgusted that the cheating isn't/wasn't highlighted more. There seems to be this narrative that we shouldn't let off the pitch matters detract from their on-pitch success, or even worse, that 'all teams spend money'....but both completely miss the point.

First of all, the very simple and straightforward response is that cheating is cheating, and they have broken over 100 rules. If a cyclist cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. If a runner cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. City cheat and the response seems to be 'yeah they cheated but don't they knock it around nicely?'.

Secondly, and the more complex argument, is that people and pundits have short memories and they forget the sheer volume of players City have churned through to get to this mega squad of 23 clones, whereby they all fit perfectly into the system and there's no drop-off in quality when players are rotated.

To get to Haaland, for example, they went through Robinho, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Bojinov, Dzeko, Balotelli, Aguero...and likely more I have forgotten.

You can apply that to every single position on the pitch. Don't let anybody con you into this narrative that they have bought well or been well-managed, they threw £3BN at the wall, some of it stuck and now they have the ultimate luxury of being able to plan 2/3 seasons at a time.

Therein lies the real advantage they have. Every other club, no matter how rich, has a budget. United are rich, but we have a budget. If we sign Maguire for £80m and it doesn't work, we can't just bin him and write off the loss, we have to try and make it work. Same with Fred. Same with Martial. Same with Sanch etc...plus each time we address a position there's an opportunity cost i.e if we sign a CB for £80m, that means we can't also sign a CF for £80m.

City have/had no such constraints. Don't like England's #1? Replace him with Barcelona's goalkeeper. Dont like him? Replace him with a £65m upgrade a season later. In the market for a fullback? Buy three, just incase one or two dont work out.

Simply put, they went on a spending spree the like of which has never been seen in world football and with that bought something more valuable than any one player or manager...the luxury of being able to plan two or three years ahead.

Pundits are dim and easily fooled. They will point to net spend/total spend and fail to see the nuanced difference between spending £1BN over a decade or spending £650m in two seasons and then adding a player or two a season thereafter.

I will always maintain that being able to spend big money is an advantage...but being able to spend 4x or 5x the average several seasons running is the REAL golden ticket to almost guaranteed success

Brilliant post.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I have read that CAS do not have the power to intervene in this case.

Yeah, I know.
I meant for it to mean "This'll lead to the same result as the CAS hearing of the previous case, which was, nothing at all".

 

[Pintu]

Well, back in the day Juve were heavily penalized even with their stature in the Italian game, so one could hope.

Well seeing the decline of the Italian league since the Claciopoli scandal you’d think the PL will wanna avoid that… Juve getting stripped of its titles basically told the world “you were watching a movie”. And the appeal of the league took a huge hit.

The PL can’t risk admitting that the PL has been a joke. It’s too big a gamble.

 

[Cloud7]

The big clubs have already saved the day in part. Clubs like Crystal Palace wouldn't have in their wildest dreams thought that the PL would have started bringing in over £100 Mill of TV money to them. This is only due to them competing in a league featuring Utd, Liverpool & the other big clubs.

The small clubs have become very wealthy off the backs of the big clubs. It's only right to now start to ask them to earn their corn & support the big clubs. The trouble is many of these small clubs hate the big clubs. In their eyes City are a small club done good.

This is the most self indulgent post I’ve seen in a long time.

“Yes you commoners should consider yourselves lucky that we’ve allowed you to exist in the same area as us and feed off our scraps now you need to pledge your unyielding loyalty to your overlords”

The big clubs have benefitted from the small clubs being able to spend money and produce a competitive product just as much as the small clubs have benefitted from the collective bargaining

 

[caid]

Well seeing the decline of the Italian league since the Claciopoli scandal you’d think the PL will wanna avoid that… Juve getting stripped of its titles basically told the world “you were watching a movie”. And the appeal of the league took a huge hit.

The PL can’t risk admitting that the PL has been a joke. It’s too big a gamble.

The appeal of the league took a hit because the teams were cheating. Not because they were punished for it.

 

[Pintu]

The appeal of the league took a hit because the teams were cheating. Not because they were punished for it.

Which is the same thing for the brand. We know City are cheating and nobody seems to care, because most of the MSM are happy promoting their “ historical achievements”

It’s the punishment in Italy that forced the world to admit there was some sort of cheating going on… If City get punished as harshly as they should be it would cement the idea that the last few PL title races were de facto rigged and that might end up hurting the brand too much…

 

[Lentwood]

This is the most self indulgent post I’ve seen in a long time.

“Yes you commoners should consider yourselves lucky that we’ve allowed you to exist in the same area as us and feed off our scraps now you need to pledge your unyielding loyalty to your overlords”

The big clubs have benefitted from the small clubs being able to spend money and produce a competitive product just as much as the small clubs have benefitted from the collective bargaining

I can see his point though, even if it was a little too condescending in places.

The Premier League have always been very fair in the way they allocate the TV money, as compared with say, La Liga or Serie A, for example.

Perhaps people don't realise that clubs like Brighton and Villa regularly feature in the 'top 20 net spend globally' lists etc...which should in theory give them a huge advantage over teams who haven't been in the PL as long and/or teams in foreign leagues.

I'm bordering on being condescending now myself, but people globally don't care about 75% of the clubs in the PL. People in China, the US and India are interested in United, Liverpool and Arsenal, for the most part.

From a very selfish point of view, as a United fan, it would be easy to argue that by being fair, we're making it harder for ourselves to compete with Barcelona and RM (for example) and also oil cheat clubs like City who don't work to a budget and therefore are not so affected by TV revenue*

*in theory they might be because of FFP, but as we have seen, they con their way around this

 

[caid]

Which is the same thing for the brand. We know City are cheating and nobody seems to care, because most of the MSM are happy promoting their “ historical achievements”

It’s the punishment in Italy that forced the world to admit there was some sort of cheating going on… If City get punished as harshly as they should be it would cement the idea that the last few PL title races were de facto rigged and that might end up hurting the brand too much…

MSM dont represent wider football supporters view. I certainly care. Wont be watching the 'brand' till its been resolved.

 

[Cloud7]

I can see his point though, even if it was a little too condescending in places.

The Premier League have always been very fair in the way they allocate the TV money, as compared with say, La Liga or Serie A, for example.

Perhaps people don't realise that clubs like Brighton and Villa regularly feature in the 'top 20 net spend globally' lists etc...which should in theory give them a huge advantage over teams who haven't been in the PL as long and/or teams in foreign leagues.

I'm bordering on being condescending now myself, but people globally don't care about 75% of the clubs in the PL. People in China, the US and India are interested in United, Liverpool and Arsenal, for the most part.

From a very selfish point of view, as a United fan, it would be easy to argue that by being fair, we're making it harder for ourselves to compete with Barcelona and RM (for example) and also oil cheat clubs like City who don't work to a budget and therefore are not so affected by TV revenue*

*in theory they might be because of FFP, but as we have seen, they con their way around this

The condescending nature of his post was quite annoying.

I can see what you're getting at, but as I alluded to in my post, the big clubs have benefitted from this as well. The way the money is distributed has made games like Villa vs Arsenal or Brighton vs Liverpool (I use these as an example of games that a United fan would not be guaranteed to watch) far more appealing to the neutral, example me in that situation, and allows the PL to market matches like that as a high end clash, which adds to the appeal of the league, which in turn helps keep the money flowing in. Both sides benefit from it, not just the smaller clubs.

The money circulating among all the teams allows the PL to market Villa vs Arsenal as a high end clash, whereas La Liga cannot do the same for Osasuna vs Real Madrid (the equivalent standings in the Spanish league)

 

[JagUTD]

Unlike some, I have zero doubt City will be found guilty. My worry is how they will be punished.

Anything short of being forced out of existence will fall short of what they deserve but I am happy to settle for a minor punishment like expulsion from the Premier and Football League, the nulling and voiding of all their results post takeover and then being forced to rename themselves as Ardwick Oasis. I would also like them to have to backpay the bedroom tax for having to many unoccupied seats in their council property.

As civilised people we have to show some leniency and that goes above and beyond.

 

[Heinzesight]

I think there is another factor to be considered when considering the likelihood of a decent punishment being handed out and that is the spectre of the European Super League.

What most people missed at the time was that the ESL wasn't just a cash-grab by the top clubs, it was also a reaction from the 'establishment' (Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Real, United, Liverpool etc...) to the oil/state owned clubs.

Remember how City and PSG were so reluctant to sign up? They basically got put in a position whereby signing-up would mean accepting really tight FFP rules OR sitting out and no longer competing at the top level of European football.

We're going to get to the point whereby if City (and PSG) are allowed to get away with cheating, then the historical 'big clubs' will simply take their ball away - and the Premier League will fear this.

On another note, I was also disgusted that the cheating isn't/wasn't highlighted more. There seems to be this narrative that we shouldn't let off the pitch matters detract from their on-pitch success, or even worse, that 'all teams spend money'....but both completely miss the point.

First of all, the very simple and straightforward response is that cheating is cheating, and they have broken over 100 rules. If a cyclist cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. If a runner cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. City cheat and the response seems to be 'yeah they cheated but don't they knock it around nicely?'.

Secondly, and the more complex argument, is that people and pundits have short memories and they forget the sheer volume of players City have churned through to get to this mega squad of 23 clones, whereby they all fit perfectly into the system and there's no drop-off in quality when players are rotated.

To get to Haaland, for example, they went through Robinho, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Bojinov, Dzeko, Balotelli, Aguero...and likely more I have forgotten.

You can apply that to every single position on the pitch. Don't let anybody con you into this narrative that they have bought well or been well-managed, they threw £3BN at the wall, some of it stuck and now they have the ultimate luxury of being able to plan 2/3 seasons at a time.

Therein lies the real advantage they have. Every other club, no matter how rich, has a budget. United are rich, but we have a budget. If we sign Maguire for £80m and it doesn't work, we can't just bin him and write off the loss, we have to try and make it work. Same with Fred. Same with Martial. Same with Sanch etc...plus each time we address a position there's an opportunity cost i.e if we sign a CB for £80m, that means we can't also sign a CF for £80m.

City have/had no such constraints. Don't like England's #1? Replace him with Barcelona's goalkeeper. Dont like him? Replace him with a £65m upgrade a season later. In the market for a fullback? Buy three, just incase one or two dont work out.

Simply put, they went on a spending spree the like of which has never been seen in world football and with that bought something more valuable than any one player or manager...the luxury of being able to plan two or three years ahead.

Pundits are dim and easily fooled. They will point to net spend/total spend and fail to see the nuanced difference between spending £1BN over a decade or spending £650m in two seasons and then adding a player or two a season thereafter.

I will always maintain that being able to spend big money is an advantage...but being able to spend 4x or 5x the average several windows running is the REAL golden ticket to almost guaranteed success. See also, Chelsea post-Roman.

Very good post.

 

[Gumshoe]

If it comes out in court how corrupt their finances are, to maintain any sort of value in the premier league brand, city will be fecked. They have to be. The alternative is the premier league itself being seen as corrupt across the world. Even city's owners don't have enough money to compensate for that loss of revenue.

The audience don’t really care about it. They just want to see the best teams and the best players. No one will boycott watching the PL because City over spent for half a dozen seasons. If fans were against corruption they’d boycott any FIFA endorsed competition, which is the whole spectrum of global professional football

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

They'll definitely be found guilty, the FA can't just ignore 115 FFP beaches and say "that's OK", but the "punishment" will be a joke.

A token fine that Sheikh Mansour could probably pay with money he's lost down the back of his sofa.

There definitely won't be titles stripped, relegation, points deductions or transfer embargoes, the punishments that would really hurt.

 

[tomaldinho1]

They'll definitely be found guilty, the FA can't just ignore 115 FFP beaches and say "that's OK", but the "punishment" will be a joke.

A token fine that Sheikh Mansour could probably pay with money he's lost down the back of his sofa.

There definitely won't be titles stripped, relegation, points deductions or transfer embargoes, the punishments that would really hurt.

I don't even think they'd be that bothered. Because the punishment is so late, they are now able to not break FFP and shrug off anything the league throws at them bar relegation right to the bottom.

The intangible issue which is the real problem is how do you begin to calculate the reparations they owe other clubs - they have denied titles, cups, European places and affected relegations with a team that has been built over a long period of time off the back of breaking the rules. It's not only domestic, this extends into Europe as well and then you get to transfers, how many clubs have they denied signing a player who went to City for the silly money. The scale of the breaches is insane and everyone knew it was happening.

 

[11101]

I think there is another factor to be considered when considering the likelihood of a decent punishment being handed out and that is the spectre of the European Super League.

What most people missed at the time was that the ESL wasn't just a cash-grab by the top clubs, it was also a reaction from the 'establishment' (Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Real, United, Liverpool etc...) to the oil/state owned clubs.

Remember how City and PSG were so reluctant to sign up? They basically got put in a position whereby signing-up would mean accepting really tight FFP rules OR sitting out and no longer competing at the top level of European football.

We're going to get to the point whereby if City (and PSG) are allowed to get away with cheating, then the historical 'big clubs' will simply take their ball away - and the Premier League will fear this.

On another note, I was also disgusted that the cheating isn't/wasn't highlighted more. There seems to be this narrative that we shouldn't let off the pitch matters detract from their on-pitch success, or even worse, that 'all teams spend money'....but both completely miss the point.

First of all, the very simple and straightforward response is that cheating is cheating, and they have broken over 100 rules. If a cyclist cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. If a runner cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. City cheat and the response seems to be 'yeah they cheated but don't they knock it around nicely?'.

Secondly, and the more complex argument, is that people and pundits have short memories and they forget the sheer volume of players City have churned through to get to this mega squad of 23 clones, whereby they all fit perfectly into the system and there's no drop-off in quality when players are rotated.

To get to Haaland, for example, they went through Robinho, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Bojinov, Dzeko, Balotelli, Aguero...and likely more I have forgotten.

You can apply that to every single position on the pitch. Don't let anybody con you into this narrative that they have bought well or been well-managed, they threw £3BN at the wall, some of it stuck and now they have the ultimate luxury of being able to plan 2/3 seasons at a time.

Therein lies the real advantage they have. Every other club, no matter how rich, has a budget. United are rich, but we have a budget. If we sign Maguire for £80m and it doesn't work, we can't just bin him and write off the loss, we have to try and make it work. Same with Fred. Same with Martial. Same with Sanch etc...plus each time we address a position there's an opportunity cost i.e if we sign a CB for £80m, that means we can't also sign a CF for £80m.

City have/had no such constraints. Don't like England's #1? Replace him with Barcelona's goalkeeper. Dont like him? Replace him with a £65m upgrade a season later. In the market for a fullback? Buy three, just incase one or two dont work out.

Simply put, they went on a spending spree the like of which has never been seen in world football and with that bought something more valuable than any one player or manager...the luxury of being able to plan two or three years ahead.

Pundits are dim and easily fooled. They will point to net spend/total spend and fail to see the nuanced difference between spending £1BN over a decade or spending £650m in two seasons and then adding a player or two a season thereafter.

I will always maintain that being able to spend big money is an advantage...but being able to spend 4x or 5x the average several windows running is the REAL golden ticket to almost guaranteed success. See also, Chelsea post-Roman.

I still think we will end up with the Super League. The cheating is going to become so rampant that the big teams, the ones with all the fans, will start to see revenues decline as they're overtaken by the Citys and Newcastles of the world. They will say enough is enough and go out on their own.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I think there is another factor to be considered when considering the likelihood of a decent punishment being handed out and that is the spectre of the European Super League.

What most people missed at the time was that the ESL wasn't just a cash-grab by the top clubs, it was also a reaction from the 'establishment' (Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Real, United, Liverpool etc...) to the oil/state owned clubs.

Remember how City and PSG were so reluctant to sign up? They basically got put in a position whereby signing-up would mean accepting really tight FFP rules OR sitting out and no longer competing at the top level of European football.

We're going to get to the point whereby if City (and PSG) are allowed to get away with cheating, then the historical 'big clubs' will simply take their ball away - and the Premier League will fear this.

On another note, I was also disgusted that the cheating isn't/wasn't highlighted more. There seems to be this narrative that we shouldn't let off the pitch matters detract from their on-pitch success, or even worse, that 'all teams spend money'....but both completely miss the point.

First of all, the very simple and straightforward response is that cheating is cheating, and they have broken over 100 rules. If a cyclist cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. If a runner cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. City cheat and the response seems to be 'yeah they cheated but don't they knock it around nicely?'.

Secondly, and the more complex argument, is that people and pundits have short memories and they forget the sheer volume of players City have churned through to get to this mega squad of 23 clones, whereby they all fit perfectly into the system and there's no drop-off in quality when players are rotated.

To get to Haaland, for example, they went through Robinho, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Bojinov, Dzeko, Balotelli, Aguero...and likely more I have forgotten.

You can apply that to every single position on the pitch. Don't let anybody con you into this narrative that they have bought well or been well-managed, they threw £3BN at the wall, some of it stuck and now they have the ultimate luxury of being able to plan 2/3 seasons at a time.

Therein lies the real advantage they have. Every other club, no matter how rich, has a budget. United are rich, but we have a budget. If we sign Maguire for £80m and it doesn't work, we can't just bin him and write off the loss, we have to try and make it work. Same with Fred. Same with Martial. Same with Sanch etc...plus each time we address a position there's an opportunity cost i.e if we sign a CB for £80m, that means we can't also sign a CF for £80m.

City have/had no such constraints. Don't like England's #1? Replace him with Barcelona's goalkeeper. Dont like him? Replace him with a £65m upgrade a season later. In the market for a fullback? Buy three, just incase one or two dont work out.

Simply put, they went on a spending spree the like of which has never been seen in world football and with that bought something more valuable than any one player or manager...the luxury of being able to plan two or three years ahead.

Pundits are dim and easily fooled. They will point to net spend/total spend and fail to see the nuanced difference between spending £1BN over a decade or spending £650m in two seasons and then adding a player or two a season thereafter.

I will always maintain that being able to spend big money is an advantage...but being able to spend 4x or 5x the average several windows running is the REAL golden ticket to almost guaranteed success. See also, Chelsea post-Roman.

Great post.

 

[UpWithRivers]

City have paid off the press as well. Look at the World cup how it was all about abuse etc and then it went quiet. The press were treated like royalty. 5 star flights, hotels. the lot. See how Newcastle are treated now like they haven't spent money but are building slowly and are a good club etc. See how boxing is these days with them all clamoring over themselves to fight in Saudi etc
Point being that it will be quiet unless they have to say something. Like being charged with over 100 offences forces them to report but its not been negative. No one is calling for a clamp down on cheating. No one is saying anything. Even if they are charged it will be a 'oh well. It wasn't the right thing to do but it was a small infringement'

 

[Lentwood]

I still think we will end up with the Super League. The cheating is going to become so rampant that the big teams, the ones with all the fans, will start to see revenues decline as they're overtaken by the Citys and Newcastles of the world. They will say enough is enough and go out on their own.

This was my point really. I'm really trying to see this objectively and fairly, without my United bias, but I can't see that City and Newcastle have more than, what 200,000 fans globally combined? How many fans would PSG have? Maybe 100,000? 150,000?

I suppose it very much depends on what you class as a 'fan', but id say it means more than just buying a replica shirt or saying that you 'follow club XYZ'. It has to do with at least some level of consistent interest. Not necessarily going week-in, week-out, but being truly engaged. Sticking with the club through thick and thin, following them closely, watching 80%+ of the games, engaging with social media etc....

If we then imagine the number of people globally who truly follow/are engaged with Real Madrid, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc....you are talking tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions.

This definition of 'engaged' matters, because whilst having tonnes of fans who loosely align with your team is somewhat relevant i.e. for some aspects of marketing revenue/shirts sales etc...these fans are fickle, they switch clubs, they drift in and out, they are only passively interested. That's not what successful long-term competitions and interest in those competitions is built on.

Imagine the future of football if 100,000,000+ fans and some of footballs oldest institutions are effectively frozen out, picking up the scraps that fall from the City/Newcastle/PSG table. What does that do for the game overall? I can't imagine it's a good thing and I cant imagine its a situation Bayern, Juventus, AC Milan, Real etc...will tolerate for long.

In actuality, United are one of the very few clubs who probably CAN still compete with the sovereign wealth funds IF we are well-run and well-managed. Same for maybe Real and Barcelona....although we've seen chaotic mismanagement at both Barcelona and United over the last decade.

I believe it's the likes of Juventus and Bayern who will drive this ESL idea further and further. Clubs like Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Barcelona and Real will go with it, knowing it's good for their revenues and hurts the likes of City.

Whichever way you look at all this, I feel it's a very sad state of affairs for football.

 

[11101]

This was my point really. I'm really trying to see this objectively and fairly, without my United bias, but I can't see that City and Newcastle have more than, what 200,000 fans globally combined? How many fans would PSG have? Maybe 100,000? 150,000?

I suppose it very much depends on what you class as a 'fan', but id say it means more than just buying a replica shirt or saying that you 'follow club XYZ'. It has to do with at least some level of consistent interest. Not necessarily going week-in, week-out, but being truly engaged. Sticking with the club through thick and thin, following them closely, watching 80%+ of the games, engaging with social media etc....

If we then imagine the number of people globally who truly follow/are engaged with Real Madrid, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc....you are talking tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions.

This definition of 'engaged' matters, because whilst having tonnes of fans who loosely align with your team is somewhat relevant i.e. for some aspects of marketing revenue/shirts sales etc...these fans are fickle, they switch clubs, they drift in and out, they are only passively interested. That's not what successful long-term competitions and interest in those competitions is built on.

Imagine the future of football if 100,000,000+ fans and some of footballs oldest institutions are effectively frozen out, picking up the scraps that fall from the City/Newcastle/PSG table. What does that do for the game overall? I can't imagine it's a good thing and I cant imagine its a situation Bayern, Juventus, AC Milan, Real etc...will tolerate for long.

In actuality, United are one of the very few clubs who probably CAN still compete with the sovereign wealth funds IF we are well-run and well-managed. Same for maybe Real and Barcelona....although we've seen chaotic mismanagement at both Barcelona and United over the last decade.

I believe it's the likes of Juventus and Bayern who will drive this ESL idea further and further. Clubs like Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Barcelona and Real will go with it, knowing it's good for their revenues and hurts the likes of City.

Whichever way you look at all this, I feel it's a very sad state of affairs for football.

The only way i think it doesn't happen is if these sportswashers start buying up those big clubs as well. Reason #27463 why i don't want the Qataris buying us.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I think there is another factor to be considered when considering the likelihood of a decent punishment being handed out and that is the spectre of the European Super League.

What most people missed at the time was that the ESL wasn't just a cash-grab by the top clubs, it was also a reaction from the 'establishment' (Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Real, United, Liverpool etc...) to the oil/state owned clubs.

Remember how City and PSG were so reluctant to sign up? They basically got put in a position whereby signing-up would mean accepting really tight FFP rules OR sitting out and no longer competing at the top level of European football.

We're going to get to the point whereby if City (and PSG) are allowed to get away with cheating, then the historical 'big clubs' will simply take their ball away - and the Premier League will fear this.

On another note, I was also disgusted that the cheating isn't/wasn't highlighted more. There seems to be this narrative that we shouldn't let off the pitch matters detract from their on-pitch success, or even worse, that 'all teams spend money'....but both completely miss the point.

First of all, the very simple and straightforward response is that cheating is cheating, and they have broken over 100 rules. If a cyclist cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. If a runner cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. City cheat and the response seems to be 'yeah they cheated but don't they knock it around nicely?'.

Secondly, and the more complex argument, is that people and pundits have short memories and they forget the sheer volume of players City have churned through to get to this mega squad of 23 clones, whereby they all fit perfectly into the system and there's no drop-off in quality when players are rotated.

To get to Haaland, for example, they went through Robinho, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Bojinov, Dzeko, Balotelli, Aguero...and likely more I have forgotten.

You can apply that to every single position on the pitch. Don't let anybody con you into this narrative that they have bought well or been well-managed, they threw £3BN at the wall, some of it stuck and now they have the ultimate luxury of being able to plan 2/3 seasons at a time.

Therein lies the real advantage they have. Every other club, no matter how rich, has a budget. United are rich, but we have a budget. If we sign Maguire for £80m and it doesn't work, we can't just bin him and write off the loss, we have to try and make it work. Same with Fred. Same with Martial. Same with Sanch etc...plus each time we address a position there's an opportunity cost i.e if we sign a CB for £80m, that means we can't also sign a CF for £80m.

City have/had no such constraints. Don't like England's #1? Replace him with Barcelona's goalkeeper. Dont like him? Replace him with a £65m upgrade a season later. In the market for a fullback? Buy three, just incase one or two dont work out.

Simply put, they went on a spending spree the like of which has never been seen in world football and with that bought something more valuable than any one player or manager...the luxury of being able to plan two or three years ahead.

Pundits are dim and easily fooled. They will point to net spend/total spend and fail to see the nuanced difference between spending £1BN over a decade or spending £650m in two seasons and then adding a player or two a season thereafter.

I will always maintain that being able to spend big money is an advantage...but being able to spend 4x or 5x the average several windows running is the REAL golden ticket to almost guaranteed success. See also, Chelsea post-Roman.

Excellent post. Nail on the head.

 

[Moriarty]

I still think we will end up with the Super League. The cheating is going to become so rampant that the big teams, the ones with all the fans, will start to see revenues decline as they're overtaken by the Citys and Newcastles of the world. They will say enough is enough and go out on their own.

If UEFA and the Associations of the leagues affected are unwilling to put a stop to financial doping (charges mean nothing unless they are zealously prosecuted), then, yes, clubs will look to themselves to reform.

 

[Pintu]

This was my point really. I'm really trying to see this objectively and fairly, without my United bias, but I can't see that City and Newcastle have more than, what 200,000 fans globally combined? How many fans would PSG have? Maybe 100,000? 150,000?

PSG is not like City or N’Castle though. PSG is the biggest club of the biggest city of one of the world’s biggest football nations…. They have about 7 to 8 millions fans in France according to this study.

https://fr.statista.com/presse/p/europeanfootballbenchmark_france_ligue1/

 

[Gumshoe]

This was my point really. I'm really trying to see this objectively and fairly, without my United bias, but I can't see that City and Newcastle have more than, what 200,000 fans globally combined? How many fans would PSG have? Maybe 100,000? 150,000?

I suppose it very much depends on what you class as a 'fan', but id say it means more than just buying a replica shirt or saying that you 'follow club XYZ'. It has to do with at least some level of consistent interest. Not necessarily going week-in, week-out, but being truly engaged. Sticking with the club through thick and thin, following them closely, watching 80%+ of the games, engaging with social media etc....

If we then imagine the number of people globally who truly follow/are engaged with Real Madrid, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc....you are talking tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions.

This definition of 'engaged' matters, because whilst having tonnes of fans who loosely align with your team is somewhat relevant i.e. for some aspects of marketing revenue/shirts sales etc...these fans are fickle, they switch clubs, they drift in and out, they are only passively interested. That's not what successful long-term competitions and interest in those competitions is built on.

Imagine the future of football if 100,000,000+ fans and some of footballs oldest institutions are effectively frozen out, picking up the scraps that fall from the City/Newcastle/PSG table. What does that do for the game overall? I can't imagine it's a good thing and I cant imagine its a situation Bayern, Juventus, AC Milan, Real etc...will tolerate for long.

In actuality, United are one of the very few clubs who probably CAN still compete with the sovereign wealth funds IF we are well-run and well-managed. Same for maybe Real and Barcelona....although we've seen chaotic mismanagement at both Barcelona and United over the last decade.

I believe it's the likes of Juventus and Bayern who will drive this ESL idea further and further. Clubs like Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Barcelona and Real will go with it, knowing it's good for their revenues and hurts the likes of City.

Whichever way you look at all this, I feel it's a very sad state of affairs for football.

Bayern never signed up to the ESL and were vocally opposed to it

 

[Yakuza_devils]

I'm not even sure why the FA needs 4 years to come out with the 115 charges when it was so obvious for more than a decade already.

Man City for the last 8 to 10 years have revenue almost similar to Man Utd, RM, Barca and BM. Their fan base worldwide is a joke compared to these historical clubs.

Recently, their revenue even overtake Man Utd. Really? The FA/PL know exactly what's City is doing but have no gut to take them on for so many years.

They have to act now to appease the fans and show they are doing something about it. But don't bet your house on it will go far.

 

[arthurka]

They'll definitely be found guilty, the FA can't just ignore 115 FFP beaches and say "that's OK", but the "punishment" will be a joke.

A token fine that Sheikh Mansour could probably pay with money he's lost down the back of his sofa.

There definitely won't be titles stripped, relegation, points deductions or transfer embargoes, the punishments that would really hurt.

Problem with that is that the other 19 teams are the PL so if the are found guilty the other teams could pursue a case to get City to pay damages for lost earnings and revenue.
Who knows how this will pan out but the silence is deafening.

 

[VivaObertan]

Ironically, City were supposed to be serving the latter half of a two year European football ban this season. What a sport!

 

[Sandikan]

I think there is another factor to be considered when considering the likelihood of a decent punishment being handed out and that is the spectre of the European Super League.

What most people missed at the time was that the ESL wasn't just a cash-grab by the top clubs, it was also a reaction from the 'establishment' (Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Real, United, Liverpool etc...) to the oil/state owned clubs.

Remember how City and PSG were so reluctant to sign up? They basically got put in a position whereby signing-up would mean accepting really tight FFP rules OR sitting out and no longer competing at the top level of European football.

We're going to get to the point whereby if City (and PSG) are allowed to get away with cheating, then the historical 'big clubs' will simply take their ball away - and the Premier League will fear this.

On another note, I was also disgusted that the cheating isn't/wasn't highlighted more. There seems to be this narrative that we shouldn't let off the pitch matters detract from their on-pitch success, or even worse, that 'all teams spend money'....but both completely miss the point.

First of all, the very simple and straightforward response is that cheating is cheating, and they have broken over 100 rules. If a cyclist cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. If a runner cheats, they lose their medals and are treated as outcasts. City cheat and the response seems to be 'yeah they cheated but don't they knock it around nicely?'.

Secondly, and the more complex argument, is that people and pundits have short memories and they forget the sheer volume of players City have churned through to get to this mega squad of 23 clones, whereby they all fit perfectly into the system and there's no drop-off in quality when players are rotated.

To get to Haaland, for example, they went through Robinho, Tevez, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Bojinov, Dzeko, Balotelli, Aguero...and likely more I have forgotten.

You can apply that to every single position on the pitch. Don't let anybody con you into this narrative that they have bought well or been well-managed, they threw £3BN at the wall, some of it stuck and now they have the ultimate luxury of being able to plan 2/3 seasons at a time.

Therein lies the real advantage they have. Every other club, no matter how rich, has a budget. United are rich, but we have a budget. If we sign Maguire for £80m and it doesn't work, we can't just bin him and write off the loss, we have to try and make it work. Same with Fred. Same with Martial. Same with Sanch etc...plus each time we address a position there's an opportunity cost i.e if we sign a CB for £80m, that means we can't also sign a CF for £80m.

City have/had no such constraints. Don't like England's #1? Replace him with Barcelona's goalkeeper. Dont like him? Replace him with a £65m upgrade a season later. In the market for a fullback? Buy three, just incase one or two dont work out.

Simply put, they went on a spending spree the like of which has never been seen in world football and with that bought something more valuable than any one player or manager...the luxury of being able to plan two or three years ahead.

Pundits are dim and easily fooled. They will point to net spend/total spend and fail to see the nuanced difference between spending £1BN over a decade or spending £650m in two seasons and then adding a player or two a season thereafter.

I will always maintain that being able to spend big money is an advantage...but being able to spend 4x or 5x the average several windows running is the REAL golden ticket to almost guaranteed success. See also, Chelsea post-Roman.

There's 100s of posts where people just say "they won't get much punishment", but I think your post is spot on.

I think City winning the treble in the season where they get 115 charges will be the straw that utterly obliterates the camel's back.

If even half those charges are upheld, they'll have to get the biggest punishment seen in English football history. Clubs get 3-6 point deductions for single charges.

If there isn't justice seen by other clubs we will simply see a breakaway move.

Add in the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid's noses being put out of joint, and we're even more likely to see some major change.

 

[JagUTD]

Ironically, City were supposed to be serving the latter half of a two year European football ban this season. What a sport!

Definitely a big F U to UEFA if they do win, as expected. Maybe UEFA will make sure they don't, fight corruption with corruption. Certainly not beyond them and I don't think anyone would be too upset, not even City fans seeing as they hate the Champions League.

 

[Sandikan]

They'll definitely be found guilty, the FA can't just ignore 115 FFP beaches and say "that's OK", but the "punishment" will be a joke.

A token fine that Sheikh Mansour could probably pay with money he's lost down the back of his sofa.

There definitely won't be titles stripped, relegation, points deductions or transfer embargoes, the punishments that would really hurt.

They're not getting tonnes of guilty charges and a moderate fine.
They'll either bat most of the charges away, or get something substantial.

To fail to do so will blow the whole game open.

What will very clearly happen is City work to delay this for as many years as possible. Pep will certainly be long long gone by the time it comes to pass.
Probably at PSG or whoever the dominant rich club are in some far east league.

You can only imagine that the main premier league pressurisers calling for City to be severely clamped down on are being briefed to hold their counsel for now.
It's improbable to think they would just sit quietly and watch them hoover up a treble whilst facing the biggest set of cheat accusations in history otherwise!

 

[Sebalto]

Since Ferguson left we have spent £1.68bn, City £1.73bn. They have broken the rules, and they indeed should be dealt a severe punishment, but the fact remains that they have simply spent better than us.

 

[VivaObertan]

Since Ferguson left we have spent £1.68bn, City £1.73bn. They have broken the rules, and they indeed should be dealt a severe punishment, but the fact remains that they have simply spent better than us.

Not that it matters, because cheating is cheating and their honours this year are the culmination of 10 years of it, but the numbers listed for City transfers usually aren't legit.

 

[Pickle85]

Since Ferguson left we have spent £1.68bn, City £1.73bn. They have broken the rules, and they indeed should be dealt a severe punishment, but the fact remains that they have simply spent better than us.

They've spent this ON the books. They're obviously spending a significant amount more off them.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Since Ferguson left we have spent £1.68bn, City £1.73bn. They have broken the rules, and they indeed should be dealt a severe punishment, but the fact remains that they have simply spent better than us.

Missing the point entirely.

 

[Ayoba]

Has there been any indication that they will be punished heavily or is it all speculation at this stage?

 

[Waynne]

So when can we expect their medals and trophies to get taken away ?

 

[awop]

Not that it matters, because cheating is cheating and their honours this year are the culmination of 10 years of it, but the numbers listed for City transfers usually aren't legit.

Haaland for 60M was a bargain, City are so smart

 

[croadyman]

nothing will happen to City, too big to get punished now, too far gone. A small fine, slap on the wrist, that's it

Yeah what a spit in the face of justice and will make other teams think hey we can get away with it so why not bend the rules

 

[croadyman]

We're all using City as a tool to stop our rivals. Them getting a treble doesn't change that, nothing real about it anyway. Let them get one.

Not often scousers and Utd fans agree on something but we definitely have common ground

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Many people don't really know how powerful and connected are the City's owner.

Do you think they really won the case with UEFA in the court fair and square? Or with their team of best lawyers?

City's owner family is the ruler of Abu Dhabi and UAE. They have bottomless cash and their investment are all over the whole especially in USA and Europe.

They have obviously cheat to get City where they are today. They will not hesitate to cheat again to get City out of trouble. They will throw brown envelopes around, lobby the government for support, use dirty tactic by lawyers, continue to hide evidence, "creative" accounting and etc.