Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Cassidy said:
Not really, there has been plenty of civil discussion on this topic and other topics of race.
I'm not condoning anyone's actions by the way, just pointing out that civil discussion on this topic has been going on for decades, and yet here we are
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The rioting has happened many time before and hasnt made a button of difference either.

The only way itl change is if the people in power actually start handing out tough sentences as a deterrent.

Then you need to try and tackle racism in the country as a whole, then as you get new cops in and the old guard out, you'll gradually, year by year, whittle down racism in the police force.

Its far from an easy fix.

I cant wrap my head around how anyone can look at someone and based on the colour of their skin think they are superior than them. Its disgusting, but it isnt just cops.

Its a community wide, country wide issue, and until thats tackled you'll always have racism in cops, or any other job sector.
 
Cassidy said:
Say you are investigating and leave it at that.
Why are you so sure there is evidence?
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I agree the statement should have been as simple as that. Though people would still not be happy with that there is less to be analysed.

Because the laws have a higher burden for prosecution of police acting in the line of their duty. The testimony will likely all be indicating that higher charges will be harder to prove and there will be questions about which charges to bring that can be prosecuted successfully.

The evidence was enough to rightly sack the officers involved but the legal side is more difficult to get justice in. The prosecutor will be aware of that and probably sees themselves in a difficult situation to balance what people want against what they can achieve.
 
Drainy said:
I agree the statement should have been as simple as that. Though people would still not be happy with that there is less to be analysed.

Because the laws have a higher burden for prosecution of police acting in the line of their duty. The testimony will likely all be indicating that higher charges will be harder to prove and there will be questions about which charges to bring that can be prosecuted successfully.

The evidence was enough to rightly sack the officers involved but the legal side is more difficult to get justice in. The prosecutor will be aware of that and probably sees themselves in a difficult situation to balance what people want against what they can achieve.
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Is agree proving murder would be tough, but youd imagine manslaughter wouldnt be tough to prove
 
arnie_ni said:
Is agree proving murder would be tough, but youd imagine manslaughter wouldnt be tough to prove
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Depends on the evidence, the statutes and common law interpretation in that jurisdiction.

My understanding is that police get quite a lot of protection. Though I'm obviously not an expert. I just seem to see it over and over with those kinds of cases.
 
Cassidy said:
Not really, there has been plenty of civil discussion on this topic and other topics of race.
I'm not condoning anyone's actions by the way, just pointing out that civil discussion on this topic has been going on for decades, and yet here we are
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Well I’m not saying let’s have a civil discussion about whether that cop is in the right or wrong - he’s obviously in the wrong. He’s obviously an awful creature, obviously a racist. We don’t need to civilly debate that, and if people defend him, they’re probably racist assholes too. There are other elements in this episode that haven’t been discussed to death though, and they are worth exploring too. A few tried to do just that earlier and it didn’t go so well. I agree with your point though, it would be naive to think civil discussion is just going to cure all wrongs in the world. I’d also add though that if civil discussion doesn’t work, I can’t say I’ve seen evidence that attacking people verbally or otherwise works either...
 
syrian_scholes said:
It seems you didn't understand what I meant, I mean in the big picture of things minorities in the US are fed up of not being treated right by the police who are supposed to be protecting them, the best the government had to say was they are making the investigation top priority, if you watched the conference they said something along the lines "send us video evidence if you have some" and then said that there could be evidence for no criminal charges, they don't seem to care/listen to what people are saying thus rightfully so the conversation ends there for a lot of people regarding this issue and it's about taking action, I don't know why you scaled my response down to include just redcafe.
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But the government has the same issue than the police, as does every other administration, prejudice against minorities and disdain are pandemic. No action will ever be taken by people currently in power outside of token gestures for electoral purposes.
 
When people question why other police officers don't question or stand up to the bad officers dragging their reputation through the mud, I was often told it's either because they're afraid or they're as bad as the bad officers. I don't know if Baltimore is a particularly gruesome place when it comes to this, but that police department appears to show up a lot when you're researching police officers doing the right thing. They're certainly done a great job at silencing any would-be good officers who might have otherwise listened to their conscience after witnessing a colleague engage in illegal activity.

In 2017



And then two years later https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2019...suicide-baltimore-police-close-investigation/

In 2016 - https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/baltimore-joe-crystal_n_7582374?ri18n=true
 
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/us/2...ice-ctn-sot-vpx.cnn?__twitter_impression=true

A bit more insight from the store owner as to what transpired. Quick summary:

So it was an alleged counterfeit $20 bill, not a forged cheque. Explains that it’s store protocol to call police for suspected counterfeit money, which is fair play because it’s a policy here in the UK for a few jobs I’ve worked at too such as retail and ticket stands at events etc. He watched the whole thing on surveillance as it was unfolding and confirmed that at no point did George resist arrest.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that apparently it was not even forged. Here is where I got it from:



The original tweeter hasn’t said how she knows this and afaik nothing else has come out about that so I’m not sure but then again not too sure why it is taking long to confirm if a note is fake. Don’t know about American notes but all you need is a two second squiggle using a UV pen to determine so for British money.
 


They've just arrested the CNN crew live on TV. How dumb can these feckers get?
 
The idiots have seized the CNN camera and it's still running, live on CNN. They don't know it's on. :lol:
 
Sara125 said:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/us/2...ice-ctn-sot-vpx.cnn?__twitter_impression=true

A bit more insight from the store owner as to what transpired. Quick summary:

So it was an alleged counterfeit $20 bill, not a forged cheque. Explains that it’s store protocol to call police for suspected counterfeit money, which is fair play because it’s a policy here in the UK for a few jobs I’ve worked at too such as retail and ticket stands at events etc. He watched the whole thing on surveillance as it was unfolding and confirmed that at no point did George resist arrest.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that apparently it was not even forged. Here is where I got it from:



The original tweeter hasn’t said how she knows this and afaik nothing else has come out about that so I’m not sure but then again not too sure why it is taking long to confirm if a note is fake. Don’t know about American notes but all you need is a two second squiggle using a UV pen to determine so for British money.
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Even if he did resist arrest, three cops had him pinned to the ground and he was cuffed.

Ok, the cop may have felt he needed to restrain him with the knee to the neck (from what ive read this is allowed) but as soon as he is restrained and cuffed that's game over. Lift him up and put him in the back of the car.

He sat on him for 9 minutes ffs, theres no amount of resisting arrest that justifies that.

The fact that it even needs to be mentioned he wasnt resisting is shameful.

All it says is a lot of people would then deem it justified which is madness.
 
arnie_ni said:
Even if he did resist arrest, three cops had him pinned to the ground and he was cuffed.

Ok, the cop may have felt he needed to restrain him with the knee to the neck (from what ive read this is allowed) but as soon as he is restrained and cuffed that's game over. Lift him up and put him in the back of the car.

He sat on him for 9 minutes ffs, theres no amount of resisting arrest that justifies that.

The fact that it even needs to be mentioned he wasnt resisting is shameful.

All it says is a lot of people would then deem it justified which is madness.
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The CNN reporter asked about it first so the owner addressed it but yeah you’re right it’s not even something worth bringing up from either party tbh
 
Sara125 said:
The CNN reporter asked about it first so the owner addressed it but yeah you’re right it’s not even something worth bringing up from either party tbh
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It's worth bringing up for one side when it can be used to obfuscate. There is a pattern in the press and in the way people want to add angles/layers to this type of events.
 
arnie_ni said:
Stop being a prick.

Thats all i asked for. Proof.

You cant make accusations without proof. Now you have it, I'll criticise it.

Now that you have it, they deserve what they get now they are making a conscious effort to increase the level of violence.

Its to give them an excuse when they start shooting as trump so eloquently put it.

Despicable.
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arnie_ni said:
He's just an asshole.

Yesteday they were basless accusations which arent allowed on this board. I called the poster on it.

Im prepared to criticise the cops now there is evidence to support the claim.

But yea his still of posting in this and other threads adds nothing to discussion and just hinders his own arguments, which most people actually agree with, but youd never know it
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Cry more. You were hounding posters for evidence like a cop and now that someone found it everyone else is a prick. If you actually gave a shit, you’d already know the answer behind your dumb questions. Because guess what, cops do this all the fecking time whenever there is a civil rights issue.
 
Drainy said:
I agree the statement should have been as simple as that. Though people would still not be happy with that there is less to be analysed.

Because the laws have a higher burden for prosecution of police acting in the line of their duty. The testimony will likely all be indicating that higher charges will be harder to prove and there will be questions about which charges to bring that can be prosecuted successfully.

The evidence was enough to rightly sack the officers involved but the legal side is more difficult to get justice in. The prosecutor will be aware of that and probably sees themselves in a difficult situation to balance what people want against what they can achieve.
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Genuine question here. Why isn't the cop charged with anything? Surely they can start with something no? I don't know how this works. So asking.
 
JPRouve said:
It's a bit weird because I want to go in your direction but something is wrong here. Ask yourself this question, why is it going to happen again? For me the answer clearly points to something else than the police, it points to society at large, the judicial and political systems have the same prejudice against african americans and I assume hispanics/latinos, the education system and the average american often have that prejudice too. None of these institutions are monoliths but on the topic of race american society is poisoned to the point where wherever you look a significant minority will create havoc at some point. And I don't see how they are going to fix that.

This situation reminds me this quote, a finger pointing at the moon isn't the moon.
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The solution is less complicated and actually been around for a while. The only way to fix it is to stop funding them and figuring out a way to slowly take away their weapons. There is no need whatsoever for any police dept to have access to the kind of fire arms like they do in the US. Year after year, the budgets and firepower keep increasing with zero oversight and no logical justifications. George Floyd and many others died for no reason other than the cops being so inept and not having responded to the complaints filed against that officer. It is insane that little to nothing is done to hold them accountable and they keep getting rewarded for killing civilians.
 
mav_9me said:
Genuine question here. Why isn't the cop charged with anything? Surely they can start with something no? I don't know how this works. So asking.
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Basically the short answer is that the cop is white and the dead man is black. That's how it works and that's all you need to know. That is why three precincts burned last night. It really is as simple as that.
 
entropy said:
The solution is less complicated and actually been around for a while. The only way to fix it is to stop funding them and figuring out a way to slowly take away their weapons. There is no need whatsoever for any police dept to have access to the kind of fire arms like they do in the US. Year after year, the budgets and firepower keep increasing with zero oversight and no logical justifications. George Floyd and many others died for no reason other than the cops being so inept and not having responded to the complaints filed against that officer. It is insane that little to nothing is done to hold them accountable and they keep getting rewarded for killing civilians.
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That's beside the point and George Floyd didn't die due to a fire arm. But you keep ignoring the point which I clearly stated and the solution is easy to state but very complicated to apply, you are not changing people mentality any time soon.
 
So this guy died because he allegedly had a fake 20? Which turned out to be real? Madness.
 
arnie_ni said:
The rioting has happened many time before and hasnt made a button of difference either.

The only way itl change is if the people in power actually start handing out tough sentences as a deterrent.

Then you need to try and tackle racism in the country as a whole, then as you get new cops in and the old guard out, you'll gradually, year by year, whittle down racism in the police force.

Its far from an easy fix.

I cant wrap my head around how anyone can look at someone and based on the colour of their skin think they are superior than them. Its disgusting, but it isnt just cops.

Its a community wide, country wide issue, and until thats tackled you'll always have racism in cops, or any other job sector.
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You can change 5% racist population over time. You can't change 40% racist population, 40% will change you.

Off course I don't know the actual percentage of racist in America, but judging from how this happened over and over and over again and how many people are still defending them I suspect there's a good number of racist still out there, and some even hold power.

This is not a simple racist cop, the racist cop is just the tip of a very giant iceberg
 
mav_9me said:
Genuine question here. Why isn't the cop charged with anything? Surely they can start with something no? I don't know how this works. So asking.
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because, I'm taking a wild guess here.

By defending the cops, you win some vote comes election, whether it's local or national. Because if I'm american I won't elect those that doesn't condemn this shit, and vice versa I guess if you're racist.

If you don't defend the cops, some white won't gonna elect you next election.
 
freeurmind said:
So this guy died because he allegedly had a fake 20? Which turned out to be real? Madness.
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Also still want to see where this gets to. Not because it matters. It was murder even he'd been detained for a heinous crime. But I did get passed a few fake 20s as change once without noticing, and I did try to pay at a store or restaurant later with them only to be told that they were fake. It was very embarrassing, but obviously no one called the cops on me, a white guy.
 
TheGame said:
All I have to say is WTF??????

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He is a big part of the problem that enables these things to happen, that's why I agree with posters that say it goes beyond Police and their training (although this is also a contributing factor). Not much will change as long as these old white boomers are in charge at the top.
 
JPRouve said:
That's beside the point and George Floyd didn't die due to a fire arm. But you keep ignoring the point which I clearly stated and the solution is easy to state but very complicated to apply, you are not changing people mentality any time soon.
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Obviously you can't just solve racism, but that's only half the story, the other part is that these cops are allowed to live out their racism in the first place, because of the indifference to police brutality and worse. Like you won't be able to turn the guy who did the choking into a decent person or even prevent the likes of him from entering service. But you can probably get (some of) the other three to tell him to snap out of it, because he's about to ruin the lives of all of them.
 
JPRouve said:
That's beside the point and George Floyd didn't die due to a fire arm. But you keep ignoring the point which I clearly stated and the solution is easy to state but very complicated to apply, you are not changing people mentality any time soon.
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Huh. Who gives a feck about changing mentality? You post sounded like it is an impossible problem to solve. Which it isnt. If anything, we are way past the stupid and outdated notion of cops and their role in society. The solution isn’t to discuss whether or not people will change or have philosophical discussions on these grounds. It is to take money away from them and figure out a way to reduce the sheer amount of fire arms they have access to.
 
do.ob said:
Obviously you can't just solve racism, but that's only half the story, the other part is that these cops are allowed to live out their racism in the first place, because of the indifference to police brutality and worse. Like you won't be able to turn the guy who did the choking into a decent person or even prevent the likes of him from entering service. But you can probably get (some of) the other three to tell him to snap out of it, because he's about to ruin the lives of all of them.
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r
It's not an other half though which is my point. Why do you think that they are allowed to live out their racism? That's the thing that I don't get, you are all staring at it but end up looking away.
 
entropy said:
Huh. Who gives a feck about changing mentality? You post sounded like it is an impossible problem to solve. Which it isnt. If anything, we are way past the stupid and outdated notion of cops and their role in society. The solution isn’t to discuss whether or not people will change or have philosophical discussions on these grounds. It is to take money away from them and figure out a way to reduce the sheer amount of fire arms they have access to.
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Okay this time I will be explicite. No one is going to take anything away from them because the people in charge, the ones that aren't in the police, politicians, judges and a large part of the electorate are for a significant part racist, they have no intention to change a thing because they are perfectly fine with the current context.
 
entropy said:
Cry more. You were hounding posters for evidence like a cop and now that someone found it everyone else is a prick. If you actually gave a shit, you’d already know the answer behind your dumb questions. Because guess what, cops do this all the fecking time whenever there is a civil rights issue.
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So asking for evidence before accusing someone of something is to much to ask these days?

You sound like those cops that shoot first and ask questions later.

Anyway proof has been provided and ive criticised the incident like every sane person would.

If you want to keep "hounding" me for asking for proof before vilifying someone be my guest.
 
entropy said:
The solution is less complicated and actually been around for a while. The only way to fix it is to stop funding them and figuring out a way to slowly take away their weapons. There is no need whatsoever for any police dept to have access to the kind of fire arms like they do in the US. Year after year, the budgets and firepower keep increasing with zero oversight and no logical justifications. George Floyd and many others died for no reason other than the cops being so inept and not having responded to the complaints filed against that officer. It is insane that little to nothing is done to hold them accountable and they keep getting rewarded for killing civilians.
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entropy said:
Huh. Who gives a feck about changing mentality? You post sounded like it is an impossible problem to solve. Which it isnt. If anything, we are way past the stupid and outdated notion of cops and their role in society. The solution isn’t to discuss whether or not people will change or have philosophical discussions on these grounds. It is to take money away from them and figure out a way to reduce the sheer amount of fire arms they have access to.
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You really haven’t thought this one through. You think this is even a remotely plausible solution when In the United States you’ve got random members of the public owning up to a dozen firearms at a time because “it’s their right”.

When you’ve got tens of millions in that country saying “it’s my right to own a gun”. You think the police department is going to be stripped of theirs? What planet are you living on? I mean yeah for sure there‘s a lot of police in America who clearly go around with the motto “shoot first ask questions later” but that pails into comparison to the number of civilians shooting each other left right and centre with their legally attained guns.

All due respect what you’ve said has clearly not really been thought out.
You asked @JPRouve that ‘who gives a feck about changing mentality’ well that mentality of “I’m American I deserve a gun” is the mentality along with racism that are the highest of hurdles that the states need to overcome to fix their problems.

It’s odd, because your posting style is very ‘know it all and putting people down’ but what you’ve said is one of the most illogical things I’ve seen in this thread in the last few days.
 
I get the impression from afar that there's a bit of a purposeful focus on the individual involved and whether they're charged or not. It seems to be used as a distraction from the obvious point that such events just demonstrate the failure in culture and process of the police.

Either they're not vetting their staff appropriately, the culture is wrong or the training is wrong. The fact his colleagues didn't stop him to me is scarier than the individuals actions.
 
JPRouve said:
Okay this time I will be explicite. No one is going to take anything away from them because the people in charge, the ones that aren't in the police, politicians, judges and a large part of the electorate are for a significant part racist, they have no intention to change a thing because they are perfectly fine with the current context.
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Less funding, less fire arms, more oversight are ideas that have been around for a long time dating back to the 70s. Politicians like to pretend that these are impossible problems to solve. But they aren’t. There is simply no logical explanation for the sheer amount of money and power we keep giving cops when crime levels have been at historic lows.
 
JPRouve said:
Okay this time I will be explicite. No one is going to take anything away from them because the people in charge, the ones that aren't in the police, politicians, judges and a large part of the electorate are for a significant part racist, they have no intention to change a thing because they are perfectly fine with the current context.
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A big part of it is obviously racism, but another is probably that it's not politically opportunistic to go for substantial reforms. I hesitate calling riots a flat out good thing, but I think this is where they can have a positive effect, because they make it more costly for everyone to look the other way.
 
Leroy The Red said:
You really haven’t thought this one through. You think this is even a remotely plausible solution when In the United States you’ve got random members of the public owning up to a dozen firearms at a time because “it’s their right”.

When you’ve got tens of millions in that country saying “it’s my right to own a gun”. You think the police department is going to be stripped of theirs? What planet are you living on? I mean yeah for sure there‘s a lot of police in America who clearly go around with the motto “shoot first ask questions later” but that pails into comparison to the number of civilians shooting each other left right and centre with their legally attained guns.

All due respect what you’ve said has clearly not really been thought out.
You asked @JPRouve that ‘who gives a feck about changing mentality’ well that mentality of “I’m American I deserve a gun” is the mentality along with racism that are the highest of hurdles that the states need to overcome to fix their problems.

It’s odd, because your posting style is very ‘know it all and putting people down’ but what you’ve said is one of the most illogical things I’ve seen in this thread in the last few days.
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Can you explain to us, as a cop, why you require the same amount of firepower as an army? what’s the logic behind that?
 
do.ob said:
A big part of it is obviously racism, but another is probably that it's not politically opportunistic to go for substantial reforms. I hesitate calling riots a flat out good thing, but I think this is where they can have a positive effect, because they make it more costly for everyone to look the other way.
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When politicians are too scared of image they refuse to call out floyd's as execution it beggars belief what sort of public they want their vote from, and he even probably will get reelected
 
jungledrums said:
@Leroy The Red I’m genuinely curious, have you ever said cops require the same amount of firepower ‘as an army’? Have you ever even hinted at it?
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:lol: I’ll play ball anyway....
entropy said:
Can you explain to us, as a cop, why you require the same amount of firepower as an army? what’s the logic behind that?
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Where is the logic behind this question? The cops killing people are street cops using handguns. If they were turning up in black neighbourhoods with tank guns and grenades, maybe just maybe you’d have a very small point.
 
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