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Dean Henderson has to be our #1 next season? Poll added
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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We can all have an opinion on a football forum. Whether it's informed or not.....
Saw this with regard to passing' ability of Deano.
Essentially, even compared to De Gea (an okay but not more than that passer), Deano compares quite weakly. He has twice the number of long passes compared to De Gea, but only half the accuracy. Perhaps more worryingly, he has only a quarter of short passes. Taking these stats together, it means that he hoofs the ball much more than he should, and he is pretty bad at it.
On the other side, he has been impressive at shot-stopping this season (has outperformed xG for 8.1 compared to De Gea doing it for only 0.2), and is better than De Gea on the air. But for people who want us to see playing from the back and having a sweeper-keeper, Deano is gonna disappoint really badly, considering that he is far worse than De Gea at it (and De Gea is not good on the first place).
So, if Ole wants to play from the back, maybe Deano is not the answer. Is Onana still good (I remember him getting praised here last year)?
In any case, maybe he deserves a chance before we splash the cash in a new keeper. I was more to give Romero the next season (with De Gea being backup trying to get his position back), but we can try the same with Deano. If De Gea manages to get back his position on merit, then we profit. If Deano impresses then we profit. If neither happens, sell both of them next summer, and get Onana (or something of that calibre).
Essentially, even compared to De Gea (an okay but not more than that passer), Deano compares quite weakly. He has twice the number of long passes compared to De Gea, but only half the accuracy. Perhaps more worryingly, he has only a quarter of short passes. Taking these stats together, it means that he hoofs the ball much more than he should, and he is pretty bad at it.
On the other side, he has been impressive at shot-stopping this season (has outperformed xG for 8.1 compared to De Gea doing it for only 0.2), and is better than De Gea on the air. But for people who want us to see playing from the back and having a sweeper-keeper, Deano is gonna disappoint really badly, considering that he is far worse than De Gea at it (and De Gea is not good on the first place).
So, if Ole wants to play from the back, maybe Deano is not the answer. Is Onana still good (I remember him getting praised here last year)?
In any case, maybe he deserves a chance before we splash the cash in a new keeper. I was more to give Romero the next season (with De Gea being backup trying to get his position back), but we can try the same with Deano. If De Gea manages to get back his position on merit, then we profit. If Deano impresses then we profit. If neither happens, sell both of them next summer, and get Onana (or something of that calibre).
I would be open to bringing him back. It seems like a win win for us. 38 games for the league GK and all FA, Carabao and UCL/EL (Should be 20 odd at least) for the other. I consider De Gea to need that fire to get back to what's needed. If he still can't, then there's nothing that can be done. Henderson himself will have a brilliant opportunity to be our long term number 1. Only loser in the scenario seems to be Romero who might be forced out due to this.
You just proved arm chair watchers really don't know much if that's your simplistic view of those three positions. I used to play as center mid and coached for a number of years. I know a good field player when I see one. I am not comfortable deciding on who should be our number 1 and I trust Ole to make the right decision in time. I said "in time" because good managers don't make quick and rash decisions like some of you want.
I was in this camp, but the arguments for this are getting thinner and thinner. De Gea is fecking up too much. Henderson is a bit unknown. At some stage (and I believe we are already there), we need to consider if that claim is still true.
De Gea has not performed at world-class level (or even at a particularly great level) for 2 seasons now.
So badly, then? De Gea was not exactly great at the beginning and it almost broke him.
Saw this with regard to passing' ability of Deano.
Essentially, even compared to De Gea (an okay but not more than that passer), Deano compares quite weakly. He has twice the number of long passes compared to De Gea, but only half the accuracy. Perhaps more worryingly, he has only a quarter of short passes. Taking these stats together, it means that he hoofs the ball much more than he should, and he is pretty bad at it.
On the other side, he has been impressive at shot-stopping this season (has outperformed xG for 8.1 compared to De Gea doing it for only 0.2), and is better than De Gea on the air. But for people who want us to see playing from the back and having a sweeper-keeper, Deano is gonna disappoint really badly, considering that he is far worse than De Gea at it (and De Gea is not good on the first place).
So, if Ole wants to play from the back, maybe Deano is not the answer. Is Onana still good (I remember him getting praised here last year)?
In any case, maybe he deserves a chance before we splash the cash in a new keeper. I was more to give Romero the next season (with De Gea being backup trying to get his position back), but we can try the same with Deano. If De Gea manages to get back his position on merit, then we profit. If Deano impresses then we profit. If neither happens, sell both of them next summer, and get Onana (or something of that calibre).
The kicking stats reflect the way that Sheffield United play. He’s instructed to hit it long to the centre forwards into areas a lot of the time which brings down the pass completion. I’ve seen him play for England who try more accurate longer passes and I’d say he’s at least as good with his feet as DDG (which is pretty average admittedly).
Ok, interesting (I haven't seen him play for England). His hoofing the ball sstats are kind of bad though, the accuracy of long passes is really bad. De Gea (who is just okay at them) seems much better at it.
In any case, it seems like a weak point (and well, it was De Gea's weak point too), and something to improve on. On the other side, I like that he looks much more vocal and charismatic than De Gea (and less afraid of going for the ball even if he occasionally fecks up).
Your stats seem to say that when the keepers play long Henderson is distinctly less accurate than de Gea. He also plays it long a lot more often, which could be because he likes to himself or because Wilder sets the team up that way, the stats don't say.Saw this with regard to passing' ability of Deano.
Essentially, even compared to De Gea (an okay but not more than that passer), Deano compares quite weakly. He has twice the number of long passes compared to De Gea, but only half the accuracy. Perhaps more worryingly, he has only a quarter of short passes. Taking these stats together, it means that he hoofs the ball much more than he should, and he is pretty bad at it.
On the other side, he has been impressive at shot-stopping this season (has outperformed xG for 8.1 compared to De Gea doing it for only 0.2), and is better than De Gea on the air. But for people who want us to see playing from the back and having a sweeper-keeper, Deano is gonna disappoint really badly, considering that he is far worse than De Gea at it (and De Gea is not good on the first place).
So, if Ole wants to play from the back, maybe Deano is not the answer. Is Onana still good (I remember him getting praised here last year)?
In any case, maybe he deserves a chance before we splash the cash in a new keeper. I was more to give Romero the next season (with De Gea being backup trying to get his position back), but we can try the same with Deano. If De Gea manages to get back his position on merit, then we profit. If Deano impresses then we profit. If neither happens, sell both of them next summer, and get Onana (or something of that calibre).
What the stats do say is that when the keepers do play it shorter (playing from the back) their accuracy is near identical.
Exactly. In short passes, they have similar accuracy (De Gea a tiny bit better). However, De Gea attempts 4 times as many short passes (and that is important, after all, every keeper is on nineties when it comes to short passing, the real question is how often they use those passes). Is this cause Deano prefers to hoof the ball, cause he is instructed (I don't think that Sheffield are particularly big into playing from the back), or a combination of these two is something I don't know (someone who has watched more of Sheffield can have a more informed opinion).
Could have saved this goal against Everton. Not showing the replacement form either.
He has not looked impressive since the restart. He doesn't look ready for me but then again De Gea is awful now
He could have saved that but that’s why you look at his xGA over a season to see how often he gets beaten by attempts he should save. Looking at one game will not give an accurate impression.
De Gea saves that. I like Deano but for every five or so impressive saves, he'll let in a soft one
Nonsense, how can you make these conclusions? The accuracy of his long passes is really bad, baded on what exactly? Goalkeepers for such teams hoof the ball up the pitch to get rid of the ball and create situations for the strikers, they are not trying to hit target X on the dot. The stats you’ve presented basically says nothing about the differences in ability for these two players, they play for different teams with different ability and approaches.
Yeah, but do you even remember what happened with Butland? He was their POTY got called up to England and then fractured his ankle against Germany. He missed the rest of the season and most of next. Not really comparable and most people would have had him at the time.
De gea has performed at a better level for longer, but he's clearly not a better keeper this season and appears to be getting worse.
If Chelsea are willing to make him their no 1 and we say, go out on loan again, it says we don't rate him as much as another club. I don't see why he should wait. De Gea has had a whole season of mistakes, Henderson should get his chance and if he doesn't take it De Gea can earn his back. Going back out on loan just shows him we have no faith in him tbh. He's earned a chance.
It's not one season though is it?
He was awful last season too. The last 2 months of the season he was pretty much making at least one horrible error a game.
People who are clamouring for Henderson are in for a shock. De Gea even with the mistakes is at a higher level than Henderson - he's good but he's not particularly excellent at anything the way De Gea consistently was or say Courtois is.
I've been watching Henderson for years. My concern has always been with him is his short passing ability. He plays with his head down when kicking out. I understand this could be instructions at Sheffield. However, this was the case when he played for United at youth levels. To be good to play out from the back is especially crucial when we prefer playing out from the back.
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I agree he needs to improve as he’s not been at his peak level this season. We’ve also been constantly in transition too and the whole team has been woeful until January time.
Interesting Henderson didn’t save something this very evening that is bread and butter for De Gea... yet no outrage.
Then let’s take Pickford for example. There are plenty of hyped GKs who then don’t cut the mustard. You know the point I’m making one season is good and I’m really pleased he’s done well. But it’s not enough to displace De Gea yet.
I would agree this season Henderson has been better. But he could be just having a good season.
Then you keep De Gea as number one and bring Henderson in as number 2. You give Henderson our cup games maybe the odd CL match/PL match and see if he’s got what it takes.
I’d have no issue with the above.
The only part I don’t get here is when you call that save “bread and butter for de Gea”. It may have been 3 seasons ago but it isn’t now, is it? The phantom save from Sarr, the epic save from Mount, the strong save from van Aanholt and Obafemi, the brilliance against Calvert-Luwin, the large presence against Stanislas, quick reflexes against Bergwijn... and this is just the beginning and most are recent. Not even going into how he cost us Top 4 last season, dropped the ball against Barca etc.
De Gea is regressing and it’s been continuous. What makes it worse is that the defenders don’t know what to expect and that breeds chaos. If you know your keeper is a great stopper but weak with crosses, you can adjust your style but here, the defenders have no clue when exactly he’ll choose to (almost literally) just let the ball through him.
I said before (and my vote reflects it) that I believe our best option is to bring in a great keeper. But given needs elsewhere and the finances we have, we’re likely not going to be able to spunk a lot on the keeper. As such, between Henderson and de Gea, it just makes sense to opt for Henderson. The only worry is about who would take his enormous wages even partially off our books.
Ok fair enough, I get your over arching point. I just think if we say that, we're basically resigned to to selling him. No other keeper needs 3 years of loans that we decide where we send him on to prove he's ready for us.
I'm not saying you hand him the no 1 spot with no scrutiny, but I think he deserves a go in as the first team keeper when De gea has been a reason we are lower down the table than we should be. He's done everything asked of him and performed to a high level, if we deem that not enough, I'd look elsewhere as well.
you think i was serious when each position I mentioned was that simplistic. We all know the duties vary with each position on the pitch based on the tactics / style of play / in or out of possession etc etc.My point was simply, the main aim of the keeper is to stop the freaking ball going into the net and DDG has made too many mistakes not to be questions - yet you don't see to feel you can vote because you've never played keeper before? Odd one that
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I’m being devils advocate there. That is something De Gea saves. He did something very similar in the Chelsea game.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on it affecting our defence. We have one of the best in the league for goals conceded. Hardly a sign of lack of confidence.
Is Henderson a great keeper? I would happily swap De Gea for an Oblak but I don’t see Henderson as a guaranteed upgrade. Not worth risking losing one of our only world class performers, with experience for that IMO.
I don’t have any issue him being back up to De Gea next season and fight it out for top spot. If he’s really that good Ole and co will see in training and it’s lower risk as it doesn’t force us into selling De Gea but pushes him on.
I think it’s incredibly harsh in fact wrong to suggest De Gea is the reason we aren’t higher up.
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So should the narrative tonight be Henderson costing Sheffield points?
Hendo watch for the Everton game: Bobbins/10.
Basically had three things to do all game and fecked two of them up:
Weak punch from a corner directly to Walcott. Extremely dodgy positioning on the cross that resulted and very lucky that the subsequent header hit the post. Would have been absolutely nowhere had it been on target.
Let in a glancing header from fairly far out that I think you'd reasonably expect most PL keepers to save.
Reacted well to a deflected shot. Bread and butter save.
I've watched a fair bit of Sheff Utd since the restart, and while that's still a small sample size, and people who have seen a lot more of him seem to have a higher opinion, I just haven't seen a single thing from him that would set him apart from any other middling PL keeper like a Pope, Ryan, Krul etc - let alone being good enough for Manchester United.
Basically had three things to do all game and fecked two of them up:
Weak punch from a corner directly to Walcott. Extremely dodgy positioning on the cross that resulted and very lucky that the subsequent header hit the post. Would have been absolutely nowhere had it been on target.
Let in a glancing header from fairly far out that I think you'd reasonably expect most PL keepers to save.
Reacted well to a deflected shot. Bread and butter save.
I've watched a fair bit of Sheff Utd since the restart, and while that's still a small sample size, and people who have seen a lot more of him seem to have a higher opinion, I just haven't seen a single thing from him that would set him apart from any other middling PL keeper like a Pope, Ryan, Krul etc - let alone being good enough for Manchester United.
Really surprised hardly anyone else has voted for Romero (not just saying this based on tonight, Serge is a solid keeper)
He's not the only reason of course, but his errors have cost us points this season and with it being so tight currently, I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. Also the PSxG stats back that up. Before he was winning us points and now he's doing very little to help us.
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By this logic every player who misses a goal should be dropped. Rashfords missed a few recently that cost us points.
I don’t think it’s a big enough issue to worry about this season.
You know the difference between a GK making a mistake and a striker missing a chance. Gks can't make as many mistakes as strikers miss chances, that is the way it is. What was the point of getting VDS when we could have gone on with a calamity in goal?
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Both have an equal impact in a match.
The point is if you’re trying to blame De Gea for this season you’re wide of the mark. He’s been ok.
Not really, because rashford still scores 20+. The standards are different for a GK. When they let in something they should have a high % of saving, because they don't necessarily have a chance to redeem.
Anyway, I do see your point. I just think De Gea has regressed and if we've been grooming Henderson for the role, now is the time to give him a chance, or he will try his luck elsewhere.
Henderson is also capable of dropping bollock too. Just look at the Liverpool game.
The impact isn't the same. One misses a chance and you don't go up and still retain a point, the other costs you a goal and you are losing. The impact is different in that scenario. And De Gea mistakes aren't chances, they are sitters. If a striker misses sitters every 2 or 3 games, i can guarantee you he won't last that long, for sure not 2 seasons in a row as a starting striker. A top club would replace him.
I am not blaming De Gea for the season, but his impact can be huge in the last 2 games if he concedes easy goals like the Mount one.
That's the issue as well though. A supposedly WC keeper on an exorbitant wage, being OK is completely unacceptable.
Just FYI, this is a good comparison and has one suggestion we phase him in a la Ter Stegen. I'll meet you in the middle and I'm on with that
. https://www.footballcritic.com/features/are-david-de-geas-days-at-man-united-numberedc/96550% for Dean Henderson and I bet barely any of them have watched him play regularly. Next season will be make or break for De Gea but there’s no reason for him to be displaced before that, he has earned one more season.
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And De Gea still saves 90+
I understand the difference of course but the effect is similar enough that if you (not you personally) will lay into one then it should apply to the other. Mistakes happen.
By all means give him a chance to compete with De Gea but he shouldn’t walk into the side.
One gets you two points extra the other loses one?
The impacts are similar enough for you to understand the point being made. People need chances to redeem themselves.
It’s not really the same as a sitter but again I understand the sentiment.
Essentially I think it’s unfair to go beyond saying De Gea has had an ok season. It hasn’t been bad it hasn’t been poor it’s just been ok. Average. We of course want better but that’s not going to happen by benching him two games.