Defensive Full-backs

[Silas]

I've seen quite a few posters claim that we won't be in for someone like Mendy this window due to Mourinho's preference for having one of his full-backs stay back while the other joins the attack. I've even come across a few posts predicting Darmian will be our own Azipilicueta (wtf?).

What's the point? I suppose you could argue that it makes us more solid defensively, but as long as the LB is Valencia-like when it comes to getting up and down the pitch, it shouldn't be a major issue. Regardless, I'd argue the extra dimension it gives us in attack is well worth the risk as right now we're far too predictable when it comes to our wing play. If we signed a CDM like Fabinho, if both our full-backs join the attack, he could drop into the back line to form a back three, so we wouldn't be completely exposed anyway.

Another issue it would solve is width on the left. I don't see why we should spend something like €50 million on Perisic for the sole reason of providing width on the left when we could sign a left back for that very same role and then allow our left winger (who now wouldn't have to worry about being double marked due to the LB adding another threat) to cut in and contribute more to the goal count himself as well as link up with the #9.

Fans have complained about the lack of goals this season and wasting a position on a part of the game a supporting full-back could provide isn't a good use of resources in my opinion. An in-form Martial (or Mhiki/any other inside forward) drifting centrally with Mendy in support looks far more threatening than Perisic on his own running down the line and is bound to get us more goals than crosses from someone who will probably have two men on him most of the time.

Virtually all the top teams have a pair of full-backs that join in during the attacking phase, so I don't see what could encourage Mourinho to instruct his left back to hold back apart from him realising Darmian's useless in attack or him looking at his last Chelsea team and deciding that he didn't need one then, so he doesn't need one now. I understand Jose seems to have a preference for this system, but can anyone provide a good argument as to why?

 

[Toad]

I've seen quite a few posters claim that we won't be in for someone like Mendy this window due to Mourinho's preference for having one of his full-backs stay back while the other joins the attack. I've even come across a few posts predicting Darmian will be our own Azipilicueta (wtf?).

What's the point? I suppose you could argue that it makes us more solid defensively, but as long as the LB is Valencia-like when it comes to getting up and down the pitch, it shouldn't be a major issue. Regardless, I'd argue the extra dimension it gives us in attack is well worth the risk as right now we're far too predictable when it comes to our wing play.

If we signed a CDM like Fabinho, if both our full-backs join the attack, he could drop into the back line to form a back three, so we wouldn't be completely exposed anyway.

Another issue it would solve is width on the left. I don't see why we should spend something like €50 million on Perisic for the sole reason of providing width on the left when we could sign a left back for that very same role and then allow our left winger (who now wouldn't have to worry about being double marked due to the LB adding another threat) to cut in and contribute more to the goal count himself as well as link up with the #9.

Fans have complained about the lack of goals this season and wasting a position on a part of the game a supporting full-back could provide isn't a good use of resources in my opinion. An in-form Martial (or Mhiki/any other inside forward) drifting centrally with Mendy in support looks far more threatening than Perisic on his own running down the line and is bound to get us more goals than crosses from someone who will probably have two men on him most of the time.

Virtually all the top teams have a pair of full-backs that join in during the attacking phase, so I don't see what could encourage Mourinho to instruct his left back to hold back apart from him realising Darmian's useless in attack or him looking at his last Chelsea team and deciding that he didn't need one then, so he doesn't need one now. I understand Jose seems to have a preference for this system, but can anyone provide a good argument as to why?

Surely there are paragraphs in there somewhere?

 

[Varun]

Attacking full backs are a must in a 4-3-3 where you have a DM imo. You just don't need a 4th guy sitting back.

 

[Silas]

Surely there are paragraphs in there somewhere?

Of course.

 

[Toad]

Of course.

Mourinhos tactics are very defensive and is frustrating but having a full back instructed to stay back is a good option in case you get caught on the counter.

But that being said we will be the ones sitting back and countering anyway, and a counter attack happens so fast that there is not usually any time for a full back to get forward so quickly and join the counter.

I would prefer one sitting back in the event the counter fails miserably and we get caught on their break. If that makes sense?

 

[adexkola]

A full back should not be useless defensively. Ideally you'd have a 2-way force of nature.

 

[adexkola]

Mourinhos tactics are very defensive and is frustrating but having a full back instructed to stay back is a good option in case you get caught on the counter.

But that being said we will be the ones sitting back and countering anyway, and a counter attack happens so fast that there is not usually any time for a full back to get forward so quickly and join the counter.

I would prefer one sitting back in the event the counter fails miserably and we get caught on their break. If that makes sense?

Some systems have one full back hanging around the half way line, so that a counter allows for the full back to further stretch a retreating defense.

 

[stevoc]

The whole idea that Mourinho likes one defensive fullback and instructs one to stay back all the time is a myth in my opinion. I believe its came from Darmian making almost zero effort to get up and contribute to attacks, people must think he has been told to do it. But he played the same way under Van Gaal so i doubt it.

Plenty of games last season Mourinho played Valencia and Shaw/Young together and both were pretty attacking. Even the likes of Blind, Rojo and Baily bombed on when played at fullback.

It's seems much more likely to me that at times the fullbacks are told that if the other fullback is high up the pitch to hang back in case of a counter, but thats it.

 

[Hojoon]

None of our wingers/players who play wide are particularly good at using their fullbacks, they often just cut inside too soon. I don't mind having an offensive FB and a more defensive one but Valencia, our offensive one, isn't that good offensively.

 

[antohan]

Attacking full backs are a must in a 4-3-3 where you have a DM imo. You just don't need a 4th guy sitting back.

Agreed. In 4-2-3-1 I could see the logic, particularly with the left being Pogba's side, but in a 4-3-3 it's excessively cautious and makes the attacking play more predictable/easier to control.

 

[harms]

We didn't have a true DM this season (with Carrick being old), which definitely forced Mourinho's hand to play a purely defensive left back. We also don't have a good all-rounder that plays consistently at required level (with Shaw disappointing Jose).

Mourinho's ideal fullback pairing is definitely with one more attacking and one less, but it's far from a purely defensive LB like Darmian.

 

[antohan]

The whole idea that Mourinho likes one defensive fullback and instructs one to stay back all the time is a myth in my opinion. I believe its came from Darmian making almost zero effort to get up and contribute to attacks, people must think he has been told to do it. But he played the same way under Van Gaal so i doubt it.

Plenty of games last season Mourinho played Valencia and Shaw/Young together and both were pretty attacking. Even the likes of Blind, Rojo and Baily bombed on when played at fullback.

It's seems much more likely to me that at times the fullbacks are told that if the other fullback is high up the pitch to hang back in case of a counter, but thats it.

He stated it himself in a presser earlier in the season.

 

[antohan]

None of our wingers/players who play wide are particularly good at using their fullbacks, they often just cut inside too soon. I don't mind having an offensive FB and a more defensive one but Valencia, our offensive one, isn't that good offensively.

I don't want to start knocking Valencia, but his stop-start showdowns are incompatible with the sort of fluid quick passing Mkhitaryan needs.

 

[settembrini]

He stated it himself in a presser earlier in the season.

Got a link?

I remember him saying that when one full back goes forward then the other one should stay back. But I've never seem him say that one full back is designated as 'defensive' and must always stay back, which is how Darmian plays (and not Shaw, Blind, Young, Mitchell etc).

The former system makes sense but the latter does not. You are crippling yourself on one side of the pitch for no advantage.

 

[Devil may care]

Both fullbacks should be box to box players IMO.

 

[Kag]

The suggestion that Mourinho actively tells one of his defenders to defend and defend only is simply nonsense. I say this as somebody that thinks our attacking play is dogshit and that Mourinho was horrendously negative for the best part of the calendar year.

That he expects one defender to hang back a little while the other attacks is of course normal. Every coach plays with this element of pragmatism. But to think that he tells the likes of Darmian to sit deep and never venture forward is just plain daft. Mourinho expects his full backs to contribute to attack, as well as defend.

 

[DWelbz19]

That he expects one defender to hang back a little while the other attacks is of course normal. Every coach plays with this element of pragmatism. But to think that he tells the likes of Darmian to sit deep and never venture forward is just plain daft. Mourinho expects his full backs to contribute to attack, as well as defend.

Most likely, but it's definitely to a lesser standard than his managerial peers. The fact that Darmian was our first choice LB for most of the season sort of suggests Mourinho is happy with the attacking threat - or lack thereof - he offers.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Another issue it would solve is width on the left. I don't see why we should spend something like €50 million on Perisic for the sole reason of providing width on the left when we could sign a left back for that very same role and then allow our left winger (who now wouldn't have to worry about being double marked due to the LB adding another threat) to cut in and contribute more to the goal count himself as well as link up with the #9.

We already have 3 LBs in the squad. Only one of them is attacking and fast enough to recover and defend. And he was poor last season.

On the other hand we don't have enough left wingers. Martial was inconsistent last year to say the least and could do with some competition and cover.

Moreover we have Pogba on the left. He will often operate in the half spaces that usually an inside winger uses. A left winger staying wide will definitely give him more space and freedom. Not to forget the defensive full-back will cover for him.

So, combining these three factors, I think Perisic is the right profile of player we are going for. We are neither a possession-based nor a high-pressing team, so attacking full-backs are not as important to our game as to, say, City and Spurs.

 

[Silas]

We already have 3 LBs in the squad. Only one of them is attacking and fast enough to recover and defend. And he was poor last season.

On the other hand we don't have enough left wingers. Martial was inconsistent last year to say the least and could do with some competition and cover.

Moreover we have Pogba on the left. He will often operate in the half spaces that usually an inside winger uses. A left winger staying wide will definitely give him more space and freedom. Not to forget the defensive full-back will cover for him.

So, combining these three factors, I think Perisic is the right profile of player we are going for. We are neither a possession-based nor a high-pressing team, so attacking full-backs are not as important to our game as to, say, City and Spurs.

Three? I wouldn't count Darmian since it isn't his primary position. Same with Blind to be honest, but he's not playing at CM any time soon, I guess. Besides, that still leaves us without a single LB of the required consistency and quality, so it isn't a position we should ignore.

That makes sense, I agree. I'm not confused as to why we're signing wingers, just why we're looking for this specific profile of winger.

Not too sure on that one. Him and Martial never really ran into each other when they played, same with Mhiki when he played on the left. I'd say it's more likely they'd be able to link up nicely, if anything. Pogba doesn't operate near enough to the goal for that to be an issue. I'd say the #10 in a 4231 has more chance of impeding Pogba than the left winger in a 433.

We may not be a possession-based team, but the majority of the games we'll play will be against teams that are sitting back, so width and support from full-backs is still important.

 

[Physiocrat]

Even in a 433 I still think a defensive full-backs makes sense as it could give full freedom to a genuine left-winger (my preference is Douglas Costa but that's for another thread)- he could be a permanent out ball in attack. It would also Pogba to get forward more and score goals.

 

[Kag]

Most likely, but it's definitely to a lesser standard than his managerial peers. The fact that Darmian was our first choice LB for most of the season sort of suggests Mourinho is happy with the attacking threat - or lack thereof - he offers.

Darmian only really started to get a regular kick when he actually started to defend well. He'd been frozen out for long stretches of the season. Shaw had a horrible season for a variety of reasons, too. I wouldn't read too much into the left back situation. Though, if we persist with somebody like Darmian there then I'll start to agree with you.

 

[stevoc]

He stated it himself in a presser earlier in the season.

I remember someone else bringing that up in a similar discussion before. But from what i remember he was either talking about a specific match or he meant when one goes forward the other should stay back to cover in case of a counter.

 

[stevoc]

Most likely, but it's definitely to a lesser standard than his managerial peers. The fact that Darmian was our first choice LB for most of the season sort of suggests Mourinho is happy with the attacking threat - or lack thereof - he offers.

How do you figure that?

Shaw made as many appearances at LB as Darmian and Blind played there in more games.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

He stated it himself in a presser earlier in the season.

Here is a comment from someone (Luke Shaw) who should know a bit about what Mourinho expects of his fullbacks

Speaking to MUTV , Shaw said: "At times people have said maybe he [Mourinho] doesn’t like his full-backs to go forward but that’s not the case. He gives both full-backs that license to go forward, obviously not at the same time but if I have the chance then it’s up to me if I want to go forward or not. It’s not that I’ve got to stay put or do particular things, I’ve got the freedom to play and that only gives me the confidence in what I want to do to help the team."

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I think Jose will use Rojo there when he's fully fit, although I feel Shaw can be our left sided Valencia if he can stay fit and progress under Mourinho.

 

[Silas]

Even in a 433 I still think a defensive full-backs makes sense as it could give full freedom to a genuine left-winger (my preference is Douglas Costa but that's for another thread)- he could be a permanent out ball in attack. It would also Pogba to get forward more and score goals.

If the opposition left back doesn't have to worry about an overlapping left back, that extra freedom won't make that much of a difference since he could just be marked out of the game. A proper DM is what would release Pogba, not a holding LB.

I think Jose will use Rojo there when he's fully fit, although I feel Shaw can be our left sided Valencia if he can stay fit and progress under Mourinho.

Jose said in a post-match (I think) interview that he was surprised Rojo was so good at CB considering how bad he was at LB, or something to that effect. I doubt Jose will be starting him there by choice any time soon.

 

[stevoc]

Here is a comment from someone (Luke Shaw) who should know a bit about what Mourinho expects of his fullbacks

Speaking to MUTV , Shaw said: "At times people have said maybe he [Mourinho] doesn’t like his full-backs to go forward but that’s not the case. He gives both full-backs that license to go forward, obviously not at the same time but if I have the chance then it’s up to me if I want to go forward or not. It’s not that I’ve got to stay put or do particular things, I’ve got the freedom to play and that only gives me the confidence in what I want to do to help the team."

That sounds about right to me. Should put the final nail in the coffin of this Mourinho defensive fullback myth.

 

[Silas]

Here is a comment from someone (Luke Shaw) who should know a bit about what Mourinho expects of his fullbacks

Speaking to MUTV , Shaw said: "At times people have said maybe he [Mourinho] doesn’t like his full-backs to go forward but that’s not the case. He gives both full-backs that license to go forward, obviously not at the same time but if I have the chance then it’s up to me if I want to go forward or not. It’s not that I’ve got to stay put or do particular things, I’ve got the freedom to play and that only gives me the confidence in what I want to do to help the team."

Ah, I must have missed this. Good to know.
So it looks like those people blaming Darmian's lack of attacking impetus on instructions were wrong. Still, if he's fine with full-backs bombing forward when the opportunity arises, why do we need Perisic for width?

 

[breakout67]

Ah, I must have missed this. Good to know.
So it looks like those people blaming Darmian's lack of attacking impetus on instructions were wrong. Still, if he's fine with full-backs bombing forward when the opportunity arises, why do we need Perisic for width?

Martial and Lingard are too limited. Lingard is shite offensively and Martial is shite defensively.
Perisic is good at both but not spectacular at either, he'll work tirelessly along the wings both in defense and attack.

I think Perisic will replace Lingard and be our left sided option with Martial if he comes.

 

[Physiocrat]

If the opposition left back doesn't have to worry about an overlapping left back, that extra freedom won't make that much of a difference since he could just be marked out of the game. A proper DM is what would release Pogba, not a holding LB.

If he's marked out of the game by the left back then the left back will have no attacking contribution. Also Pogba can drift left and provide an underlap.

 

[settembrini]

Here is a comment from someone (Luke Shaw) who should know a bit about what Mourinho expects of his fullbacks

Speaking to MUTV , Shaw said: "At times people have said maybe he [Mourinho] doesn’t like his full-backs to go forward but that’s not the case. He gives both full-backs that license to go forward, obviously not at the same time but if I have the chance then it’s up to me if I want to go forward or not. It’s not that I’ve got to stay put or do particular things, I’ve got the freedom to play and that only gives me the confidence in what I want to do to help the team."

I wish I had seen this quote earlier. I've wasted a whole load of posts trying to tell people that Darmian is simply bad and he's not under special instructions to never help us attack.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Martial and Lingard are too limited. Lingard is shite offensively and Martial is shite defensively.
Perisic is good at both but not spectacular at either, he'll work tirelessly along the wings both in defense and attack.

I think Perisic will replace Lingard and be our left sided option with Martial if he comes.

Martial and Lingard are unlikely to be our starting LWF. Those spots are more likely to be held by Rashford (LWF) and Mkhi (RM/RWF). Perisic is not an upgrade and I seriously doubt he would start ahead of either of Rashford or Mkhi.

 

[Silas]

Martial and Lingard are too limited. Lingard is shite offensively and Martial is shite defensively.
Perisic is good at both but not spectacular at either, he'll work tirelessly along the wings both in defense and attack.

I think Perisic will replace Lingard and be our left sided option with Martial if he comes.

I thought Martial started putting shift in defensively towards the end of the season tbh. We wouldn't have handed Lingard an extension if we were looking to replace him.

If he's marked out of the game by the left back then the left back will have no attacking contribution. Also Pogba can drift left and provide an underlap.

A team that's sitting back (most of our opponents) wouldn't mind their left back not contributing to the attack as long as they can negate our own attack and see out the game. Just Pogba attacking from the left hand side wouldn't be ideal, especially if he's our main source of creativity from central midfield.

 

[Physiocrat]

A team that's sitting back (most of our opponents) wouldn't mind their left back not contributing to the attack as long as they can negate our own attack and see out the game. Just Pogba attacking from the left hand side wouldn't be ideal, especially if he's our main source of creativity from central midfield.

Ideally with Pogba I'd like a proper DLP. Verratti is the obvious candidate but his a very, very long shot. Also it would be the left winger and Pogba not just Pogba. All this goes to show really that Pogba requires a rather specific set-up to get the best from him

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Ideally with Pogba I'd like a proper DLP. Verratti is the obvious candidate but his a very, very long shot. Also it would be the left winger and Pogba not just Pogba. All this goes to show really that Pogba requires a rather specific set-up to get the best from him

You cannot have two playmakers in the midfield and Pogba is the playmaker in our case. Thus you pair him with a pure DM like Matic and not a DLP like Verratti.

 

[AkaAkuma]

I read that Azpilicuetas position was more to aid John Terrys lack of pace.

Mourinho is pragmatic and adapts his tactics to the players he has.

 

[Silas]

Ideally with Pogba I'd like a proper DLP. Verratti is the obvious candidate but his a very, very long shot. Also it would be the left winger and Pogba not just Pogba. All this goes to show really that Pogba requires a rather specific set-up to get the best from him

How does this say anything about Pogba?

 

[Jaybomb]

Darmian is underrated. He's barely put a foot wrong for us and was excellent in the Europa League final.

 

[Pete Dahh Sneak]

The whole idea that Mourinho likes one defensive fullback and instructs one to stay back all the time is a myth in my opinion. I believe its came from Darmian making almost zero effort to get up and contribute to attacks, people must think he has been told to do it. But he played the same way under Van Gaal so i doubt it.

Plenty of games last season Mourinho played Valencia and Shaw/Young together and both were pretty attacking. Even the likes of Blind, Rojo and Baily bombed on when played at fullback.

It's seems much more likely to me that at times the fullbacks are told that if the other fullback is high up the pitch to hang back in case of a counter, but thats it.

He did it at Inter (Maxwell, Zanetti, and Chivu across Maicon) Madrid (Ramos, Arbeloa, I even remember Diarra and Essien getting matches there opposite of Marcel of course) and Chelsea (playing Azpilicueta out of position over Filipe Luis for some reason because he loved Ivanovic's ability to bomb forward and cross to no one, instead of just ya know playing Luis and Azpi).

 

[DWelbz19]

He did it at Inter (Maxwell, Zanetti, and Chivu across Maicon) Madrid (Ramos, Arbeloa, I even remember Diarra and Essien getting matches there opposite of Marcel of course) and Chelsea (playing Azpilicueta out of position over Filipe Luis for some reason because he loved Ivanovic's ability to bomb forward and cross to no one, instead of just ya know playing Luis and Azpi).

Chelsea was probably one of the few times it was a good idea. Azpi stayed deep because he's an excellent one on one defender and kept Terry from getting exposed on the outside.