Di Maria, Herrera and Shaw

Jaytay said:
I would look disinterested to if you kept playing me in the wrong position.
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We have played him wide, a position he played often for Madrid. And yesterday he played behind the striker. Neither might be his favourite positions but a player of his quality should be able to adapt . Also that is no excuse for not looking arsed
 
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Randall Flagg said:
We have played him wide, a position he played often for Madrid. And yesterday he played behind the striker. Neither might be his favourite positions but a player of his quality should be able to adapt . Also that is no excuse for not lookinjg arsed
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Any player who's going to sulk because he's not playing in his preferred position can feck right off tbh.

We've had far too many players asked to play unfamiliar roles this season but they've almost all got their heads down and done their best. Some of them seem to have even found a new lease of life in an unfamiliar role (Young and Valencia). If Di Maria isn't willing to knuckled down and do what's best for the team then we should get rid, no matter how much he cost.
 
I want to watch the team that Herrera, Di Maria and Shaw can play well in. That's as true now as when we bought them. If LvG doesn't want that kind of team, I'm honestly baffled by what he does want and even more baffled by his transfer decisions.

Di Maria as winger was always inconsistent at Madrid, capable of brilliance in the buildup but usually disappointing in front of goal. If we wanted a goalscoring winger/wide forward - he was never that player (were we even in for Sanchez). If we wanted a tactically flexible, hardworking flair player capable of devastating play, backed up by the necessary discipline to cover wingers/fullbacks on the move then that's where he picked up his "world class" label and price tag.

Herrera is a pass and move player, a terrier when it comes to recovering possession. He needs players to play one-twos with. If we want someone to hit it long to a wingback who looks knackered, he's not your guy.

Shaw is a young high quality prospect who had already proven his defensive skills, but needed to develop his attacking game. Now he's a disappointing wingback.

Yes, I get the good player should be able to play anywhere total football/er vision, but deliberately playing players out of position just looks like trying to make it harder for the new guys to deliver.
 
jojojo said:
I want to watch the team that Herrera, Di Maria and Shaw can play well in. That's as true now as when we bought them. If LvG doesn't want that kind of team, I'm honestly baffled by what he does want and even more baffled by his transfer decisions.

Di Maria as winger was always inconsistent at Madrid, capable of brilliance in the buildup but usually disappointing in front of goal. If we wanted a goalscoring winger/wide forward - he was never that player (were we even in for Sanchez). If we wanted a tactically flexible, hardworking flair player capable of devastating play, backed up by the necessary discipline to cover wingers/fullbacks on the move then that's where he picked up his "world class" label and price tag.

Herrera is a pass and move player, a terrier when it comes to recovering possession. He needs players to play one-twos with. If we want someone to hit it long to a wingback who looks knackered, he's not your guy.

Shaw is a young high quality prospect who had already proven his defensive skills, but needed to develop his attacking game. Now he's a disappointing wingback.

Yes, I get the good player should be able to play anywhere total football/er vision, but deliberately playing players out of position just looks like trying to make it harder for the new guys to deliver.
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Good post.

If Di Maria becomes another player that we shuffle around that is not going to help us at all. I could understand exposing Shaw to the wing back role, perhaps, but Di Maria surely needs to have a particular position in order to be the player he should be for us.
 
Devil may care said:
Despite LvG's reputation of loving prep time more than Batman, I think he underestimated the league he was coming to manage in, in fact I'm sure he acknowledged he was caught out by the pace and physicality. In hindsight I think he may well have only signed Shaw of the 3.

I do however think he signed off on all 3 buys, and I imagine he envisions playing Di Maria as part of a front 3 once he gets more wide options in, and with a switch to 4-3-3 we'll see the best of Shaw. If he is calling the shots I expect to see one or two Caf favourites sold in favour of a more tactically astute, physical, possession based midfield player or two who are versatile.
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I would welcome that.

The only player i am worried about is Ander, not sure why he isnt playing that much.
 
jojojo said:
I want to watch the team that Herrera, Di Maria and Shaw can play well in. That's as true now as when we bought them. If LvG doesn't want that kind of team, I'm honestly baffled by what he does want and even more baffled by his transfer decisions.

Di Maria as winger was always inconsistent at Madrid, capable of brilliance in the buildup but usually disappointing in front of goal. If we wanted a goalscoring winger/wide forward - he was never that player (were we even in for Sanchez). If we wanted a tactically flexible, hardworking flair player capable of devastating play, backed up by the necessary discipline to cover wingers/fullbacks on the move then that's where he picked up his "world class" label and price tag.

Herrera is a pass and move player, a terrier when it comes to recovering possession. He needs players to play one-twos with. If we want someone to hit it long to a wingback who looks knackered, he's not your guy.

Shaw is a young high quality prospect who had already proven his defensive skills, but needed to develop his attacking game. Now he's a disappointing wingback.

Yes, I get the good player should be able to play anywhere total football/er vision, but deliberately playing players out of position just looks like trying to make it harder for the new guys to deliver.
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I like what you say but look how you describe Herrera and Di Maria, in their ideal roles they are two side of the same coin, you can't play both in midfield.

With Herrera in the team Di Maria is a winger, which i like, but now who is the other winger ? I'd put Januzaj.

I think that the real problem is with Rooney, Falcao, Mata and Van Persie like some members in here LVG wants to play all of them and that's a stupid mistake they are not good enough for us to kill a potential team just to accommodate them.
 
Godfather said:
Against weaker opposition we could even field Herrera instead of Blind. Blind could also play the Carrick role and Rooney Mata's which would allow to play Falcao at times.
It makes too much sense but it supposedly lacks balance..... in contrast to that wonderful 5-3-2 system that makes us look rock solid at the back and play brilliant attacking football at the same time...
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There are many systems that should allow us to be defensively competent, whilst also allowing our attackers to shine. Apart from the diamond, I like:

Herrera Carrick Blind
___Mata__Di Maria
______Rooney

Mata or Di Maria could play the Herrera/Blind role against weaker opposition with Rooney dropping back, RVP/Falcao could play the Rooney role, Rooney could play either the Di Maria or Mata role (hopefully not the midfield role he's currently in, but still an option). Hell in a difficult away game Herrera goes into Mata's position and Fellaini goes into a solid midfield 3 with Blind & Carrick.

I really think this system would suit our creative none centre forwards (Di Maria, Mata, Rooney), who have been our best and most productive this season. It'd also suit our midfielders, particularly Carrick who wouldn't be on his own with Rooney AWOL and Mata almost up front. Also as importantly it'd suit our defenders, Smalling/Jones aren't play-makers and Shaw/Rafael aren't wing backs.

Van Gaal has the perfect opportunity to implement a new system against poor opposition in QPR, Cambridge & Leicester. Not holding my breath though, I can see sticking with the current 3 at the back and 3 expected wins meaning we stick with it.
 
JPRouve said:
I like what you say but look how you describe Herrera and Di Maria, in their ideal roles they are two side of the same coin, you can't play both in midfield.

With Herrera in the team Di Maria is a winger, which i like, but now who is the other winger ? I'd put Januzaj.

I think that the real problem is with Rooney, Falcao, Mata and Van Persie like some members in here LVG wants to play all of them and that's a stupid mistake they are not good enough for us to kill a potential team just to accommodate them.
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Yesterday we left Herrera on the subs bench and played Di Maria up front, that's hardly two sides of the same coin, it's two players not being useful (OK, so maybe that it is two sides of the same coin then).

Can we play a midfield 4 that incorporates Di Maria and Herrera? Yes, provided Mata and Rooney are chasing places in the front 2. In some games I'd say we can use them both in a three, provided one of the front three knows his role is to drop back and help, or to cover for them as they move forward.

I don't see them as incompatible with each other in midfield. I see them as incompatible with the formation and personnel we're using. I'm hoping that's just about injuries/form.
 
Bit of a tangent but there's something to be observed about a purist like Van Gaal in relation to other, more flexible managers.

A lot of our relative struggles in the past few weeks and the adamant stance regarding the preference for a 5-3-2 boils down to system obsessed managers like Louis, Guardiola and even Mourinho to an extent having a blueprint and sticking by it religiously. They all have a rigid set of criterion for their 'philosophy' and specific traits which the players should possess and there isn't a lot of room left for deviating from that or freelance as an individual. Because of that they all frequently fall out with some very good but non compliant players - Rivaldo, Ibrahimovic, Mata and so forth moreso for footballing reasons as opposed to the intangible stuff. While attention to detail makes them geniuses when things are going right, with Louis specifically little nuances likes him mandating a left footer at LCB, or forcing players into unfamiliar roles can cause friction in the camp.

In contrast with that there were the likes of Sir Alex and now Ancelotti at Madrid who are more loosely defined in terms of their tactical philosophy and can seemingly fit any player into their side , utilize their key abilities and put them in advantageous positions. Fergie in particular was very malleable and perceptive towards change and altering the setup around his best players. Ancelotti is making do with what he has (which is world class to be fair) but I doubt the likes of Van Gaal or Mourinho would stand by patiently as Perez meddled and offloaded some key players in successive windows. Carlo's decision to permanently move Di Maria into their midfield looks masterful in hindsight and speaks volumes of the ability to extract the maximum out of certain talented but inconsistent players.

Now Louis to be fair to him has been brilliant in his handling of Young, McNair, Fellaini but the basis of a team should always be predicated on their most talented players, not maximizing marginal talent at the expense of the best that you possess.

By now it's quite clear that Di Maria is going to struggle is we keep pressing him as a forward, it's just not his forte. I can see certain parallels with Robben but he succeeded because he has a superior first touch and finishing ability inside the box, qualities that Di Maria struggles with at times. Angel is more dynamic and better suited to a more withdrawn role.

Similarly, we shouldn't have signed Herrera if we're not intending to utilize him properly. Plug him as an attacking midfielder in a central 3 and Ander is a brilliant all round terrier who can press the daylights out of opposition players while also transitioning into attack with his clever movement and adventurous passing. Expecting him to be super disciplined, passive in possession and a metronome in passing is basically tantamount to nullifying his biggest qualities. We have a very dynamic midfielder after all these years, yet he's barely starting games. Shaw is another one though I think with experience he can be a good wingback, just hasn't had the chance to build up confidence with a consistent run of games. That said his best qualities are being equally gifted in defense and attack so the former is diminished as a wingback which necessitates more attacking drive at the expense of defensive astuteness.

Will sound like Captain Hindsight now but I've always maintained that we should've brought in a very experienced and market savvy director of football in the summer. Who it could've been I can't really say for certain but it's worth noting that Van Gaal has always worked with such a director, a person who can fathom Louis' requirements and select the best available players which it that profile. Dunno if Ander, Shaw and Di Maria were forced onto him because it's a largely unfounded and presumptuous notion, but if that's what's really going down then it's money unwisely spent because Louis will not tailor his system to accommodate players he wasn't an admirer of and who aren't impressing with their work-ethic or productivity on the field. Either you alter yourself or find yourself a nice seat on the bench.

Also gotta laugh at suggestions of Di Maria not looking arsed. He's one of the most naturally vibrant players we have. People are reading way too much into it and basing opinions solely off a hunch.
 
jojojo said:
Yesterday we left Herrera on the subs bench and played Di Maria up front, that's hardly two sides of the same coin, it's two players not being useful (OK, so maybe that it is two sides of the same coin then).

Can we play a midfield 4 that incorporates Di Maria and Herrera? Yes, provided Mata and Rooney are chasing places in the front 2. In some games I'd say we can use them both in a three, provided one of the front three knows his role is to drop back and help, or to cover for them as they move forward.

I don't see them as incompatible with each other in midfield. I see them as incompatible with the formation and personnel we're using. I'm hoping that's just about injuries/form.
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But yesterday LVG shat his pants, why would you use that as a reference.
And for the same coin i'm exclusively talking about their roles as CMs.
We could play like that

Rafael-Smalling-Rojo-Shaw---------------Rafael-Smalling-Rojo-Shaw
--------Carrick-----------------------------------Carrick---------
----Herrera--Blind-------------But not--------Herrera--Di Maria
Di Maria--------Januzaj-----------------Someone-----Someone
--------Rooney---------------------------------Rooney

Because Herrera and Di Maria are borderline reckless, we won't control the midfield with both of them in there, the 4-3-3 is also better than the 4-4-2 Diamond, because it is easier to create pairs wg-fb than asking to the CMs to cover according to the situation, Unless we replace Rafael with a defensive fullback like Ivanovic or Azpilicueta.

The other solution is a narrow 4231:

------Rooney------
Di Maria--Mata--Herrera
------Blind--Carrick
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Does anyone wonder if Van Gaal was really the impetus behind these signings?
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I doubt he would have picked Herrera and Shaw himself, they were obviously deals we had been working on from last season.

Di Maria though I am sure he pushed for himself, not to play upfront though!
 
Rood said:
I doubt he would have picked Herrera and Shaw himself, they were obviously deals we had been working on from last season.

Di Maria though I am sure he pushed for himself, not to play upfront though!
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Where did he plan on playing him then? And if it was a different position, why isn't he playing him there?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Where did he plan on playing him then? And if it was a different position, why isn't he playing him there?
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Winger/attacking mid - he has played him in both those positions this season as well

I can only assume that he wanted to stick with Carrick/Rooney/Mata in midfield for continuity on our unbeaten run - now that it is over I fully expect a few positional shifts
 
jojojo said:
I want to watch the team that Herrera, Di Maria and Shaw can play well in. That's as true now as when we bought them. If LvG doesn't want that kind of team, I'm honestly baffled by what he does want and even more baffled by his transfer decisions.

Di Maria as winger was always inconsistent at Madrid, capable of brilliance in the buildup but usually disappointing in front of goal. If we wanted a goalscoring winger/wide forward - he was never that player (were we even in for Sanchez). If we wanted a tactically flexible, hardworking flair player capable of devastating play, backed up by the necessary discipline to cover wingers/fullbacks on the move then that's where he picked up his "world class" label and price tag.

Herrera is a pass and move player, a terrier when it comes to recovering possession. He needs players to play one-twos with. If we want someone to hit it long to a wingback who looks knackered, he's not your guy.

Shaw is a young high quality prospect who had already proven his defensive skills, but needed to develop his attacking game. Now he's a disappointing wingback.

Yes, I get the good player should be able to play anywhere total football/er vision, but deliberately playing players out of position just looks like trying to make it harder for the new guys to deliver.
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Good post.
 
JPRouve said:
The other solution is a narrow 4231:

------Rooney------
Di Maria--Mata--Herrera
------Blind--Carrick
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That's probably where I'd go for hard games (with Rooney/striker as an alternative to Mata/Rooney). In fact it was where I hoped we were heading earlier in the season - just waiting for Carrick to get back. Of course, that was pre Blind and Herrera's injuries. As I say, I don't know how much is a choice by LvG and how much is just a reaction to fitness/form.
 
Physiocrat said:
Care to elaborate?
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In his all career i think that only Babangida(?), Kanu(?),Litmanen and Overmars have been successful, after that he only purchased his former players or it was huge flops.
 
Randall Flagg said:
We have played him wide, a position he played often for Madrid. And yesterday he played behind the striker. Neither might be his favourite positions but a player of his quality should be able to adapt . Also that is no excuse for not looking arsed
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Very true. I hate it when these sort of excuses is being made for these players, they are top players. Being played in different position is not a reason to look so poor.
 
If Van Gaal had very little influence over our transfer activity last summer, hopefully now he has fully familiarised himself with our squad he will now at least be able to give Woodward a better indication of what he wants. I cant imagine Woodward is like Abramovich, with his own very particular ideas about the kinds of players he wants to see at the club, he was probably just buying good players in positions Moyes and other support staff around him had identified as weaknesses. But if Van Gaal doesnt like Falcao, Di Maria or anyone else, and can explain to Woodward why, and more importantly exactly what he IS looking for, then Im sure Woodward will be happy to accommodate him.
 
Devil may care said:
Despite LvG's reputation of loving prep time more than Batman, I think he underestimated the league he was coming to manage in, in fact I'm sure he acknowledged he was caught out by the pace and physicality. In hindsight I think he may well have only signed Shaw of the 3.

I do however think he signed off on all 3 buys, and I imagine he envisions playing Di Maria as part of a front 3 once he gets more wide options in, and with a switch to 4-3-3 we'll see the best of Shaw. If he is calling the shots I expect to see one or two Caf favourites sold in favour of a more tactically astute, physical, possession based midfield player or two who are versatile.
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Which CAF favourites do you see potentially being sold?
 
DomesticTadpole said:
If Herrera has another season and improves why would he go? I think Mata is the most saleable at the moment, which actually doesn't say much about the rest of the squad.
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If being the key word, and that will be coupled with how much opportunity he gets. I think we know LvG is going to move for a powerful CM in the summer, probably his boy Strootman. I see Ander mostly being a sub under LvG and that rightfully wont be enough for him.
 
Invictus said:
A lot of our relative struggles in the past few weeks and the adamant stance regarding the preference for a 5-3-2 boils down to system obsessed managers like Louis, Guardiola and even Mourinho to an extent having a blueprint and sticking by it religiously. They all have a rigid set of criterion for their 'philosophy' and specific traits which the players should possess and there isn't a lot of room left for deviating from that or freelance as an individual.
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Plenty to agree with there. However I dont think for Pep or LVG that the actual formation is of any particular meaning. LVG has mostly been a 4-3-3 man, but 4-2-3-1, 3-3-1-3, 4-4-2 & 3-5-2 have all been used in his career to good effect. And Pep has probably tried every formation under the sun just at Bayern, including the memorable 2-3-2-3 formation he tried against us in Munich.

That's part of the reason I think that complaints about a dogmatic reason for sticking to 3-5-2 are wide of the mark.
 
Devil may care said:
If being the key word, and that will be coupled with how much opportunity he gets. I think we know LvG is going to move for a powerful CM in the summer, probably his boy Strootman. I see Ander mostly being a sub under LvG and that rightfully wont be enough for him.
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I am not sure nowadays if people are too bothered being a sub as long as they are a used sub and get a fair amount of games. Most know it is a squad game. Where would we have been without Ole. The problem will be if LvG cocks it up and god forbid we don't get into the CL. Then to be honest he will be stuck with this squad anyway. The club might not be as lucky this time attracting the big names and most want CL football. If we do not get CL football I would be more concerned the DDG would leave.
 
Physiocrat said:
Care to elaborate?
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He never seemed particularly interested in transfers unless he knew the players from before. Most of the players he really wanted were weak and/or bad fits and it didn't look like he had a real plan how to use them. He really seems to struggle to judge players before they trained and played under him for several months, which makes big transfers basically a huge gamble and it shows in his highly questionable transfer record. Robben is the only player we signed during van Gaal's time as Bayern manager who was still at the club 3 years after van Gaal left and Robben was pushed on him by the board because we panicked after a shockingly bad start. Van Gaal helped to make the deal happen in the end, but Robben wasn't really his signing in the first place.

It was just as bad if not worse during his time at Barca, where he just bought one Dutch player after the next one and alienated the fans with his signings, who mostly sucked when playing for the team.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I am not sure nowadays if people are too bothered being a sub as long as they are a used sub and get a fair amount of games. Most know it is a squad game. Where would we have been without Ole. The problem will be if LvG cocks it up and god forbid we don't get into the CL. Then to be honest he will be stuck with this squad anyway. The club might not be as lucky this time attracting the big names and most want CL football. If we do not get CL football I would be more concerned the DDG would leave.
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I think a lot of players would accept being a sub at a big club, but I am just not sure if it's in Ander's nature, he seems more driven than that. Fully agreed on the De Gea concerns, if we fail to get into the CL we are in trouble in general but especially as regards Dave with only a year left on his contract.
 
Considering we've been linked with Strootman, Coleman, Godin, Hummels and Bale, I'd say LvG's got the right targets in mind.
 
Balu said:
He never seemed particularly interested in transfers unless he knew the players from before. Most of the players he really wanted were weak and/or bad fits and it didn't look like he had a real plan how to use them. He really seems to struggle to judge players before they trained and played under him for several months, which makes big transfers basically a huge gamble and it shows in his highly questionable transfer record. Robben is the only player we signed during van Gaal's time as Bayern manager who was still at the club 3 years after van Gaal left and Robben was pushed on him by the board because we panicked after a shockingly bad start. Van Gaal helped to make the deal happen in the end, but Robben wasn't really his signing in the first place.

It was just as bad if not worse during his time at Barca, where he just bought one Dutch player after the next one and alienated the fans with his signings, who mostly sucked when playing for the team.
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You again. Fecking hell. Not today. Not after that result :(
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Remember who we were linked with under Moyes? On that basis, Moyes > Van Gaal.
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True, but it's a little premature to judge his transfer activity at United. How he did at other clubs doesn't really matter now, 'cause we're entering an era where we're going for the big dogs. I seriously doubt we'll be signing any lemons.
 
TooBias said:
Considering we've been linked with Strootman, Coleman, Godin, Hummels and Bale, I'd say LvG's got the right targets in mind.
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Have we been linked though, or is it the press linking them? From what Balu has said in another thread. He likes players he has worked with before. Therefore I would say Strootman is the only one I would say for definite is an LvG choice. He also said that he has not good judgement in the market and pissed off Barca fans by signing one dutch player after another. Those players did not perform well either.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
United selling Mata wouldn't be a shock even though he's had fairly good season. Herrera hard to say. Needs a run of games that's for sure.
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Well I didn't say it would be a shock, just that he's a Caf favourite I could see being sacrificed to balance the attack. Maybe Herrera will prove me wrong, I certainly hope so, I'm just not sure he is LvG's kind of CM.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You again. Fecking hell. Not today. Not after that result :(
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Sorry :( . Doesn't really make a huge difference at the moment anyway. He needs to sort out the squad he has at the moment and gets them performing or else he might not be in charge anymore when the summer transfer window starts.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Have we been linked though, or is it the press linking them? From what Balu has said in another thread. He likes players he has worked with before. Therefore I would say Strootman is the only one I would say for definite is an LvG choice. He also said that he has not good judgement in the market and pissed off Barca fans by signing one dutch player after another. Those players did not perform well either.
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I think Strootman's a cert, but I also think the others are genuine targets, to be honest. The Bale one might be a bit of hyperbole, but Hummels, Coleman and Godin will be being seriously looked. When you've got defenders like Evans and Blackett and want to be challenging for trophies, you have to be looking at those sorts of players.
 
Balu said:
Sorry :( . Doesn't really make a huge difference at the moment anyway. He needs to sort out the squad he has at the moment and gets them performing or else he might not be in charge anymore when the summer transfer window starts.
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I hope LvG realises that point. He was given a target of Top 3. No CL and I don't think we can afford another year out of it. He might not be around as you say. He has a squad and should be making the best of them. We need to win games, not be trying not to lose them. At the moment he is doing the latter. For someone who seems ambitious, that seems rather cautious.
 
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