Does Jose suit being at a mega club?

Red Ryan

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I'm only asking that out of the five clubs he has managed - his two most significant successes - the Champions League wins - came at the two clubs with the least resources Inter and Porto?
Does this suggest he is better served managing and building a team that's on the cusp on good things but looking to make it through to the next level, rather than a club that has been established as the market-leader/ top dog for a long period and looking to consolidate that or, in our case, return to that?
Is he an example of the Peters Principle in front of our very eyes?
 
I do think he's at his best when being revered
 
It was only recently people were arguing the opposite, I.e that he needs the kind of money that Chelsea and Madrid have to succeed. The reality is that he's simply a very good manager regardless.
 
You could also argue that at Porto and Inter he had two teams that were fairly comfortably the best team in their respective leagues and thus was able to rest players before champions league games.
 
We genuinely need to realise - as a collective bunch of supporters - that we have the greatest manager we possibly could have running our football club.

The mentality shift post-Ferguson has been monumental and we need the best guy in the world at rebuilding a winning mentality. Mourinho ticks all the boxes. I'm not even sure there are many managers in the history of the game who fit what we are looking for right now more than Jose.

I am fully confident we are heading in the right direction. The only thing we are lacking right now is a bit of patience from the average fan. Calm down guys....Jose's got this.

Once we are back in a regular campaign - hopefully next year in terms of Champions League - Premier League fixtures - I think we are very capable of not only becoming the best team in England again, but under Jose - a constant threat in the Champions League.This has been a funny campaign for Jose to handle, especially from the mentality point of view and it shouldn't go unnoticed that Mouirnho said this right on the eve of the campaign starting - he said it's going to take quite a while to shift the mentality at the club.
 
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BorisDeLeFora said:
You could also argue that at Porto and Inter he had two teams that were fairly comfortably the best team in their respective leagues and thus was able to rest players before champions league games.
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He never rested players. That was one of the things I was afraid about him. Nevertheless he is rotating our squad which is totally different to what he used to do and I am really pleased about it...He played his best 11 in the carling cup against 3rd tier oppositions when he was at Chelsea...
 
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The CL mention annoys me actually the more I think about it, as how would you describe SAF then? Not fit for a mega club or?

Jose's record in the competition is quite clearly much better than Sir Alex.
 
I still think that his time at Chelsea (the first stint) was the most impressive period in his career - and he wasn't limited in resources there.
 
Slavkov said:
He never rested players. That was one of the things I was afraid about him. Nevertheless he is rotating our squad which is totally different to what he used to do and I am really pleased about it...He played his best 11 in the carling cup against 3rd tier oppositions when he was at Chelsea...
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I do agree that Jose is rotating his squad at United much more than before but the reason for that is obvious - he is still not found his best 11 in that team. When he does it they will play almost all the time no matter what. This is Jose's way. And btw he is already playing almost all the time the likes of Pogba, Zlatan etc..
 
Mourinho is made for mega clubs, huge ego and the balls to make the big decisions. Compare it to how meek Moyes was and some of his soundbites about aspiring to be like City.
 
TheBiggest said:
We genuinely need to realise - as a collective bunch of supporters - that we have the greatest manager we possibly could have running our football club.

The mentality shift post-Ferguson has been monumental and we need the best guy in the world at rebuilding a winning mentality. Mourinho ticks all the boxes. I'm not even sure there are many managers in the history of the game who fit what we are looking for right now more than Jose.

I am fully confident we are heading in the right direction. The only thing we are lacking right now is a bit of patience from the average fan. Calm down guys....Jose's got this.

Once we are back in a regular campaign - hopefully next year in terms of Champions League - Premier League fixtures - I think we are very capable of not only becoming the best team in England again, but under Jose - a constant threat in the Champions League.This has been a funny campaign for Jose to handle, especially from the mentality point of view and it shouldn't go unnoticed that Mouirnho said this right on the eve of the campaign starting - he said it's going to take quite a while to shift the mentality at the club.
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We should be trying to challenge for the league first before trying to be a force again in Europe.Top 4(6) will be hard again next year and I don't think we will be challenging properly for the league until JM's third season in charge.
 
BorisDeLeFora said:
You could also argue that at Porto and Inter he had two teams that were fairly comfortably the best team in their respective leagues and thus was able to rest players before champions league games.
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Slavkov said:
He never rested players. That was one of the things I was afraid about him. Nevertheless he is rotating our squad which is totally different to what he used to do and I am really pleased about it...He played his best 11 in the carling cup against 3rd tier oppositions when he was at Chelsea...
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Physical tiredness aside, I think that teams are mentally fresher and more focussed in CL campaigns when they're not fighting a gruelling war on two fronts.

I'd be curious to know what proportion of CL champions are either comfortable domestic champions or out of the title race entirely by the time the CL gets down to the knock-out stages.
 
At Real and Chelsea.. backed by money he still did great things, most managers backed by money.. don't tend to be as successful. His only failing at those clubs was the Champions League.. and he was very close to winning them in all fairness. Consistently got to semi finals.

Do think it isn't a coincidence that he wasn't able to get those more mercenary-esque sides past the semi final stage.. maybe it was written in the stars that he'd have to win his third CL at a club like United and do it the hard way.
 
harms said:
I still think that his time at Chelsea (the first stint) was the most impressive period in his career - and he wasn't limited in resources there.
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He was certainly limited in terms of control during that period.

I think, like he had at Inter and at Porto, Jose now has full control over team affairs and will prove to be a major success at Old Trafford. We all just need a little patience.
 
Does he do well only at smaller clubs? Not really, IMO - he's done well everywhere he's been, apart from his second spell at Chelsea (which was distinctly below par in terms of performances in European football). I think managers of the class of Mourinho and Fergie would've done well wherever they'd been - be it at a mega club, or a smaller one (the latter did and has tangible proof on his side, but Mourinho is still quite young in managerial terms, too - and the United job could be a great barometer in that sense because of the upper management's relatively less intrusive approach). Actually winning the Champions League requires a bit of random luck, so while he didn't lead Madrid to La Decima, his time there is slightly underrated in retrospective terms, though some Madrid fans will undoubtedly argue otherwise. Games at a certain stage are decided by extremely fine details - and we could easily be looking a realistic alternate history - where United's goal vs Porto stands, or Barcelona score a late goal at Camp Nou vs Internazionale to go through on away goals, or Garcia's goal is disallowed.

eg. at Madrid, first season: Finished 4 points behind Barcelona in the league, won the Copa del Rey - facing Barcelona in the final, the Champions League semi first leg was kinda decided in no small part by the genius of Messi at the Bernabéu.

Second season: Wins the league with record points and goals scored, faces Barcelona in the Copa de Rey - again, and this time the Catalans prevail, faces Heyneckes' Bayern in the Champions League semis, and somehow his best players forget how to take penalties:



Third season: This was a bit disappointing to be fair, especially with all the background drama. Dismantled in the first leg of the semi-finals vs Dortmund in the Champions League, distant second in the league, lose to Simeone's Atlético in the Copa de Rey final.

Mind, this was a Madrid team that hadn't reached the Champions League semi-final since 2002/03 - with 6 consecutive Round of 16 exits from 2004/05. And for added context, they were facing one of the best club sides of all time at their peak - with players that had developed chemistry and a common style over years (heightened by Guardiola's coaching), and he was facing an exceptional league manager. Plus, the little guy who could create something out of nothing, and if you take Pep's team out of the equation - he could have realistically won league titles on the bounce, a European Cup, and the might not have been sacked because the antagonism he created (that arguably led to his decline) wouldn't have been necessary. Ifs and buts, but again, the margins are very fine.
 
If he doesn't then either does SAF if you're going by CL as they both have 2.
Also he was screwed out of a final that first time at Chelsea when the ref should of gave them about 10 penos against Barca.

He wins the league most years with every club he manages and does well in CL. He just wins trophies
 
royboy16 said:
We should be trying to challenge for the league first before trying to be a force again in Europe.Top 4(6) will be hard again next year and I don't think we will be challenging properly for the league until JM's third season in charge.
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I think with the funds to bring in new players Woodward will be expecting us to challenge for the title next season, and not challenging for top 4. I think at least Runners up will be the aim
 
Hard to say with clarity what type of jobs suit a manager let alone one as success as Mourinho. While you could claim that the two monster clubs he was at - Real and United - he didn't do as well and hasn't done as well (so far) and he would have liked. However at the same time when you have a record like his every job comes with the need to win rather than just the biggest ones. So even at chelsea and inter Mourinho needs to win.

What I'd say is that he's probably suited to situations where winning is a desperation and doesn't need to be a fairy tale story, and it usually coincides with big boys having that desperation. Inter were perennial league winners so they already had that winners mentality but it was that one extra big step they were desperate for. He made swift key decisions that a fairly big club can only make and won it. At Madrid the need to respond to Barcas dominance was the main emotion at the club and Mourinho made perfect sense. He didn't do as well as they wanted him to and burnt a lot of bridges but he achieved one of the many objectives he came to achieve I suppose. Same at united, the idealism of the long term man and the teacher are gone. It's results that are of sole importance.

A few things I think about Mourinho - firstly that I think he is naturally functional rather than exciting. So it will be interesting to see whether he can make us an exciting winning team like SAF did. I think even though it's not really his style inherently, how his teams are looked at even if they achieve success, in comparison to Sir Alex's will probably matter to him.

Secondly I think he's usually a superb spender of big money. Give him funds and he'll give you good players.
 
432JuanMata said:
If he doesn't then either does SAF if you're going by CL as they both have 2.
Also he was screwed out of a final that first time at Chelsea when the ref should of gave them about 10 penos against Barca.

He wins the league most years with every club he manages and does well in CL. He just wins trophies
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Hiddink was our manager then.
 
nah. I think why he can be successful in Porto and Inter because they respect and trust Jose fully. in Chelsea and Real Madrid, Jose couldnt express his ideas freely because of Roman and fecking Perez, although I still think he did great job in both clubs.
and now in United it seems that the board and Ed trust and support Jose. hopefully we can be back to the top with him.
 
Raees said:
At Real and Chelsea.. backed by money he still did great things, most managers backed by money.. don't tend to be as successful. His only failing at those clubs was the Champions League.. and he was very close to winning them in all fairness. Consistently got to semi finals.

Do think it isn't a coincidence that he wasn't able to get those more mercenary-esque sides past the semi final stage.. maybe it was written in the stars that he'd have to win his third CL at a club like United and do it the hard way.
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At real, carlos and zidane won CL though.

Also getting to semi is not very close to winning at all.

Jose has been doing pretty good at every clubs he has been imo as long as they are winning. But once his team starts losing a bit unusually, it gets a bit complicated for him and players. People actually haven't talked about his first sack at Chelsea. He was not doing well before he got sacked at that time and some drama happened. I don't think his teams generally don't have resilience like SAF's teams once shit hits the fan. But then again, it might not be fair to compare.

He is a bit extreme on either side. That's how I see him based on his career so far and what little his players had to say anyway.
 
The United said:
At real, carlos and zidane won CL though.

Also getting to semi is not very close to winning at all.

Jose has been doing pretty good at every clubs he has been imo as long as they are winning. But once his team starts losing a bit unusually, it gets a bit complicated for him and players. People actually haven't talked about his first sack at Chelsea. He was not doing well before he got sacked at that time and some drama happened. I don't think his teams generally don't have resilience like SAF's teams once shit hits the fan. But then again, it might not be fair to compare.

He is a bit extreme on either side. That's how I see him based on his career so far and what little his players had to say anyway.
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It was for huge for Madrid at the time as they had been knocked out in the second round for about 5 years running and it was turning in to an ongoing joke every year. Unfortunately for them they ran in to that Barcelona team and had a horror show on penalties against Bayern, otherwise they would have won their 10th European Cup much earlier.

At Chelsea the first time there were rumours that the transfer window going in to 2006/2007 was not what he wanted at all (Shevchenko being bought for him for example) and the same before the start of last season (no Stones/Pogba whoever else he wanted). With Madrid it turned in to a fiasco but both Porto and Inter were successes and there was no stories like this come out. It seems while he has influence and a say in recruitment etc. then it works better. Hopefully with Ed he does.
 
If you believe this, which isn't a long shot at all, United is the perfect mix between both types of clubs, whilst our history and stature is that of the 'mega' nature. Our situation since SAF puts us in that section where we aren't that bad we can't qualify for a European competition but we aren't that good to achieve greatness.

This makes our club perfect for him, he's putting the work in to get us in to the current mega status as far as silverware and league position is concerned, I would say we are on the cusp of greatness.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
He's won everywhere he's been.

The CL is notoriously difficult to win so shouldn't be used as a barometer, I mean, Jose has won it as often as SAF in much less time.
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I do wish Di Matteo hadn't won it, it's such an annoying outlier.

Also it means Rafa isn't the worst manger to have won it!
 
Robertd0803 said:
It was for huge for Madrid at the time as they had been knocked out in the second round for about 5 years running and it was turning in to an ongoing joke every year. Unfortunately for them they ran in to that Barcelona team and had a horror show on penalties against Bayern, otherwise they would have won their 10th European Cup much earlier.

At Chelsea the first time there were rumours that the transfer window going in to 2006/2007 was not what he wanted at all (Shevchenko being bought for him for example) and the same before the start of last season (no Stones/Pogba whoever else he wanted). With Madrid it turned in to a fiasco but both Porto and Inter were successes and there was no stories like this come out. It seems while he has influence and a say in recruitment etc. then it works better. Hopefully with Ed he does.
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I know what happened mostly. And saying if they got to final, they would have won it is a bit too far to say.

Also every manager has a bit of restrictions on them by the club. To say, you are running your team to the ground badly because you can't sign a couple of players you wanted after you had been champion last year or the year before is a bit ridiculous.

All points out what I said anyway. Very good or very bad. That's how he always has been so far.
 
Invictus said:
Does he do well only at smaller clubs? Not really, IMO - he's done well everywhere he's been, apart from his second spell at Chelsea (which was distinctly below par in terms of performances in European football). I think managers of the class of Mourinho and Fergie would've done well wherever they'd been - be it at a mega club, or a smaller one (the latter did and has tangible proof on his side, but Mourinho is still quite young in managerial terms, too - and the United job could be a great barometer in that sense because of the upper management's relatively less intrusive approach). Actually winning the Champions League requires a bit of random luck, so while he didn't lead Madrid to La Decima, his time there is slightly underrated in retrospective terms, though some Madrid fans will undoubtedly argue otherwise. Games at a certain stage are decided by extremely fine details - and we could easily be looking a realistic alternate history - where United's goal vs Porto stands, or Barcelona score a late goal at Camp Nou vs Internazionale to go through on away goals, or Garcia's goal is disallowed.

eg. at Madrid, first season: Finished 4 points behind Barcelona in the league, won the Copa del Rey - facing Barcelona in the final, the Champions League semi first leg was kinda decided in no small part by the genius of Messi at the Bernabéu.

Second season: Wins the league with record points and goals scored, faces Barcelona in the Copa de Rey - again, and this time the Catalans prevail, faces Heyneckes' Bayern in the Champions League semis, and somehow his best players forget how to take penalties:



Third season: This was a bit disappointing to be fair, especially with all the background drama. Dismantled in the first leg of the semi-finals vs Dortmund in the Champions League, distant second in the league, lose to Simeone's Atlético in the Copa de Rey final.

Mind, this was a Madrid team that hadn't reached the Champions League semi-final since 2002/03 - with 6 consecutive Round of 16 exits from 2004/05. And for added context, they were facing one of the best club sides of all time at their peak - with players that had developed chemistry and a common style over years (heightened by Guardiola's coaching), and he was facing an exceptional league manager. Plus, the little guy who could create something out of nothing, and if you take Pep's team out of the equation - he could have realistically won league titles on the bounce, a European Cup, and the might not have been sacked because the antagonism he created (that arguably led to his decline) wouldn't have been necessary. Ifs and buts, but again, the margins are very fine.
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Just wanted to say that I enjoyed this post, very informative! Thank you.
 
Red Ryan said:
I'm only asking that out of the five clubs he has managed - his two most significant successes - the Champions League wins - came at the two clubs with the least resources Inter and Porto?
Does this suggest he is better served managing and building a team that's on the cusp on good things but looking to make it through to the next level, rather than a club that has been established as the market-leader/ top dog for a long period and looking to consolidate that or, in our case, return to that?
Is he an example of the Peters Principle in front of our very eyes?
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This sort of question is best saved til after he retires.
 
TheBiggest said:
We genuinely need to realise - as a collective bunch of supporters - that we have the greatest manager we possibly could have running our football club.

The mentality shift post-Ferguson has been monumental and we need the best guy in the world at rebuilding a winning mentality. Mourinho ticks all the boxes. I'm not even sure there are many managers in the history of the game who fit what we are looking for right now more than Jose.

I am fully confident we are heading in the right direction. The only thing we are lacking right now is a bit of patience from the average fan. Calm down guys....Jose's got this.

Once we are back in a regular campaign - hopefully next year in terms of Champions League - Premier League fixtures - I think we are very capable of not only becoming the best team in England again, but under Jose - a constant threat in the Champions League.This has been a funny campaign for Jose to handle, especially from the mentality point of view and it shouldn't go unnoticed that Mouirnho said this right on the eve of the campaign starting - he said it's going to take quite a while to shift the mentality at the club.[/QUOTE
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TheBiggest said:
We genuinely need to realise - as a collective bunch of supporters - that we have the greatest manager we possibly could have running our football club.

The mentality shift post-Ferguson has been monumental and we need the best guy in the world at rebuilding a winning mentality. Mourinho ticks all the boxes. I'm not even sure there are many managers in the history of the game who fit what we are looking for right now more than Jose.

I am fully confident we are heading in the right direction. The only thing we are lacking right now is a bit of patience from the average fan. Calm down guys....Jose's got this.

Once we are back in a regular campaign - hopefully next year in terms of Champions League - Premier League fixtures - I think we are very capable of not only becoming the best team in England again, but under Jose - a constant threat in the Champions League.This has been a funny campaign for Jose to handle, especially from the mentality point of view and it shouldn't go unnoticed that Mouirnho said this right on the eve of the campaign starting - he said it's going to take quite a while to shift the mentality at the club.
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Maybe you do have the best manager you can possibly have......But I know you're position 6th in February with this manager.

Conte has no long stories trying to explain his league position, doesn't need supporters to make up excuses. He just came in and has Chelsea in 1st place in Feb. No "special" excuses
 
TheBiggest said:
We genuinely need to realise - as a collective bunch of supporters - that we have the greatest manager we possibly could have running our football club.

The mentality shift post-Ferguson has been monumental and we need the best guy in the world at rebuilding a winning mentality. Mourinho ticks all the boxes. I'm not even sure there are many managers in the history of the game who fit what we are looking for right now more than Jose.

I am fully confident we are heading in the right direction. The only thing we are lacking right now is a bit of patience from the average fan. Calm down guys....Jose's got this.

Once we are back in a regular campaign - hopefully next year in terms of Champions League - Premier League fixtures - I think we are very capable of not only becoming the best team in England again, but under Jose - a constant threat in the Champions League.This has been a funny campaign for Jose to handle, especially from the mentality point of view and it shouldn't go unnoticed that Mouirnho said this right on the eve of the campaign starting - he said it's going to take quite a while to shift the mentality at the club.
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This.
 
There is definitely more pressure at those mega club in terms of how they want to win. Clubs who are not as used to winning like Porto or Chelsea back in 2004 or even Inter on the European stage were in no position to be picky about success. It was welcome in any shape or form and they were always going to worship whoever gave them that. Being put on a pedestal like that way and not required to adhere to a playing ideal due to a club's ego is definitely something José thrives on. He is at his best being the antagonist who upsets those elite clubs, he even did not really try to hide his disdain for what he calls clubs with a holier than thou attitude. One can argue that when Real hired him and during his first two seasons there, they were actually reduced to that type of "do it however you can" club because of Barcelona's dominance. His last season over there is very difficult to evaluate because there simply was too much baggage by that point which is why his time here with us is very interesting. On the one hand, we are in that desperate place where we need to get back on top as quickly as possible but on the other hand, we do have that entitled attitude that comes with serial winning and history which means his approach to games will always be questioned. He's already been eager to point out how his United plays like no other club he managed because of the profile of the club so he understands this new dimension to his job. Whether he will make it work or not is what will decide if he is as equipped for it as he clearly showed for the tasks at Chelsea, Porto and Inter.
 
royboy16 said:
Aim yes but is the team capable is another thing.I see Spurs as a bigger threat than ourselves for a title challenge next season.
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Thats what I would expect if I was Woodward, and we have one of the best managers ever and spent mega money on top players over 2 transfer windows.
 
I always laugh when people say Jose can only manage big teams.

He had no right to win the Treble with Porto and Inter.
 
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