Could you quote someone who compared him with Ronaldo or Messi?
Eden Hazard | "It's time to enjoy life drinking beers"
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Could you quote someone who compared him with Ronaldo or Messi?
I assume that a lot of people did when they claimed that he wasn't near their level.
Although accurate, even that is one of those "so obvious it's dumb to even point it out" comparisons.
Seemingly cursed season for Hazard, don't really recall him ever being injured much for us. Seemingly fantastic piece of business selling him before injuries caught up with him.
Real Madrid were seemingly much better without him in the team anyway, went on a great run but been dreadful again since he came back in to the team. Not sure if anyone has Real Madrid statistics with and without Hazard in the team this season?
Real Madrid were seemingly much better without him in the team anyway, went on a great run but been dreadful again since he came back in to the team. Not sure if anyone has Real Madrid statistics with and without Hazard in the team this season?
He holds onto the ball too much. Not getting the ball away quick enough so you can run down a cul-de-sac and draw a foul for a round of applause was never going to work at Madrid.
He just cant seem to adapt
He just cant seem to adapt
Seemingly.
I'm not sure that it's that dumb, there seem to be this idea that you compare two players because you believe that they are equal or that it is in favor of the main subject when it can often simply be to highlight the difference or shortcomings of one of the players. I would argue that pointing out that Hazard is unfavorably compared to Messi and Ronaldo is first a testament to his place in the hierarchy and secondly a demonstration of the gap between a world class player like Hazard and probable all time greats like Messi and Ronaldo.
Tbf if you search the forum you'll find tonnes of posts comparing him to both.
I'm sure there will be tons saying he's not as good.
But also tonnes comparing him to them. It is what it is, circa 2015 or so the Hazard hype levels were insane on here.
No doubt Hazard is a great player but think people need to be careful evelating him.
What would people say his most influential CL season was? When you compare to likes of Bale and Neymar who won this competition and scored many goals in later stages.
Also with Belgium he was underwhelming in world cup and euro 2016. Had much better World cup in 2018 but again like the others was nulified v France.
He's probably one of the best ball carriers I've seen who can win endless free kicks but lacks a little at the very highest level in final third.
Take last night. Broke clear but never got the ball completely under control and just hit it straight at the keeper.
Interested what the Madrid media/fans think of him so far but injuries have disrupted his season a fair bit.
What would people say his most influential CL season was? When you compare to likes of Bale and Neymar who won this competition and scored many goals in later stages.
Also with Belgium he was underwhelming in world cup and euro 2016. Had much better World cup in 2018 but again like the others was nulified v France.
He's probably one of the best ball carriers I've seen who can win endless free kicks but lacks a little at the very highest level in final third.
Take last night. Broke clear but never got the ball completely under control and just hit it straight at the keeper.
Interested what the Madrid media/fans think of him so far but injuries have disrupted his season a fair bit.
Still can't get over that 15/16 season. Was crowned PFA player of the season the year before. He scored his first premier league goal of the season on Saturday 23rd April 2016.
Had featured in 26 games before that.Did score a nice goal v Spurs the next match though....
Put him on a diet plan and then make a 50-60m bid. I'll have liverpool take him anyday.
Eh? As a squad option then?
He'd walk into that Liverpool team,as good as Mane is he's no Hazard and never will be.
Disagree completely. Hazard couldn’t carry the burden of scoring goals nearly as well as Mané. They already have Firmino in there who’s never close to the top scorers in the league.
Hazard in instead of Mané? Yes, please! From a United fan’s perspective of corse.
He would score more than Mane if he played at Liverpool. Just a superior player in everything but top speed. You underestimate what influence a functioning system has on a player. You can't just drop a player into a team and expect him to reproduce the numbers he achieved for his previous club. Mane wouldn't look like half the player he's currently perceived as if he was in Hazard's situation.
Agree to disagree. Mané’s most important attributes are his smarts in getting chances, his goalscoring and his top speed. Hazard has none of that killer instinct, which I think you’re underestimating. As players there isn’t much between them, however in this Liverpool set up I’d never switch Hazard for any of their attackers.
But Hazard doesn't fit with their system, while Mané does. Hazard is a wide playmaker not an inside forward, Liverpool would have to adapt their system for Hazard which could easily fail. What maybe should have happened was for Hazard to directly repalce Ribéry at Bayern, in theory it would have been a seamless transition.
We would have to pretend that it is a five month injury and sign another Braithwaite
I feel sorry for him. He surely focused all the recovery to be perfect for this week of competition and again out.
I feel sorry for him. He surely focused all the recovery to be perfect for this week of competition and again out.
To be fair, I dont think that is a great example. Getting the ball completely under control isnt something Edin Hazard struggles with. I think it is mostly a mental thing because he doesnt really have that mentality like a Ronaldo who wants to score every time.
We would have to pretend that it is a five month injury and sign another Braithwaite
I feel sorry for him. He surely focused all the recovery to be perfect for this week of competition and again out.
It was a bit strange that he came back that early, it's now the third high profile player with that injury that comes back quickly and his out for months after it, Neymar, Pogba and Hazard. Maybe clubs and players should just take their time instead of rushing things?
That killer instinct of Mane is a consequence of the coaching, IMO. He's not a natural goal scorer by any means, it's primarily the system that gets him into those situations. Place him in another team that is not managed by Klopp or Guardiola and his numbers would take a severe hit. Drop him into the current Juve squad, eyemplarily, and I don't believe he'd even score double digits.
I don't really understand why people see players in such firm roles. IMO it's the tactical setup that defines how they play, and the only thing that limits the roles they can occupy is their skill set. And Hazard's skill set would allow him to play Mane's role better than the original. He's a significantly better dribbler and has much better technique - not only in terms of close control but also regarding finishing, reaction time, anticipation, pasying etc. Hazard possesses talent Mane can only dream of.
The reason Hazard was more of a playmaking winger up until now IMO is that he never had the luxury to focus his play on the final third. Ideally, you want a player of his skill set to get the ball much closer to the opponents' goal.
IMO it's short sighted to reduce players to the roles they're currently filling. Few would've thought that Sterling could become a player who scores 20+ goals a season from open play, yet he has. In such a setup and role, Hazard could easily score 30+ a season, I believe.
Hazard was great for the brief period in which he was fully fit actually. Just been injured a lot
Probably go back to Chelsea ? Not like they have replaced him anyway.
Shame we cant sign him though.
Shame we cant sign him though.
Plan B. Hazard has the nous to take down a team parking the bus with 5 defenders.
Maybe, in the sense of pressure for expectations. The deadlines seemed very marked, train, stay out a couple of weeks and start playing seriously shortly before Barça / City. Actually I had not thought if it was forced or not
Because players have tendencies, they aren't robots, you can't just reconfigure them, you may tweak them but it rarely happens with 30 years old players and it's not a drastic transformation. Hazard is a playmaker, an extremely creative player but he isn't the type to find himself at the end of chances. There is a reason why transferred players often have different performances when they find themselves in a different system or need times to adapt.
So it's a bit strange that you think that a player that is a currently a perfect fit for a given system would definitely be outperformed by a player that would have to either adapt to a totally different role and mindset. Players have a personality, they have an history and tendencies when you try to translate them into a system you need to take that into account, it's not a simple question of technique and athleticism. That's why good managers adapt the system to the players at their disposal.
Which managers do that? I think the general consensus has Klopp and Guardiola as the best of the bunch, currently, and they certainly don't do that. Correctly speaking, they also do it but on a much smaller scale than most of their less positively perceived peers. Before Salah and Mane played for Klopp or Sterling for Guardiola, you probably would've said similar things about them playing in the roles they currently do as you now say about the idea that Hazard could play in Mane's.
IMO, that's one of the characteristics which distinguishes devent from greaf coaches. They look at the abilities a player has and evaluate which positions they can occupy best based on that. They've got visions and re-imagine the roles their stars can fulfill. That's what sets them apart. You can find countless such examples for them. Arguably even Messi, but certainly Salah, Mane, Sterling, Lahm, Silva, Fabregas, Fernandinho, ...
So no, players aren't robots but they can adapt. Actually, they even have to adapt, probably even from game ro game.
Klopp and Guardiola both changed their systems, they don't use the systems they used previously. Klopp's system with Liverpool is different to the one he had with Dortmund, while Guardiola opted for a more vertical approach and picked players that suited that approach. Also neither of them kept players that didn't fit with their new systems and they didn't turn players into something they weren't.
Real would be daft to sell him, he always has a quiet season followed by a world class season.
Of course they did, especially Guardiola. Messi is possibly the prime example of that but the list goes on and on and on. He even played Cesc Fabregas as a striker, Henry as a winger, Lahm as a CM, Mandzukic as a winger and so forth.
And Klopp's is arguably just as long. With Piszcek he turned a striker into a RB. He turned Salah into a scoring machine, asked Firmino to play as false nine, shifted Milner from the wing into the center etc. Those mangers think in skill sets, not in positions. And the players they ship out are primarily ones that aren't willing to give in, like Ibrahimovic or Ronaldinho, or those whose skill sets don't fit their systems at all.
Good post.
@Zehner, just look up his goals for Southampton. Of course he wouldn’t score as many, system, coaching and the fact that he’s playing alongside some of the best players in the world surely has a huge impact. I do believe you didn’t notice him much for Soton’ though, he created goals out of nothing and scored a lot of great goals.
Mandzukic role didn't change when moved to the wing, his role was still to press and be a target upfront, Fabregas was a failure and Henry played as a winger/inside forward for many years from his Monaco days to the end of his career. Lahm is basically your example but it was a role that fitted with his qualities and mentality.
As for the Klopp part, it highlights your failure to understand the point. Klopp turned Pisczek into an attacking fullback because it fitted his natural game, Salah was a goalscoring wide player as his 14 and 15 goals in consecutive seasons in Serie A. He also didn't shift Milner to the middle from the wing out of nowhere, it's something that Milner had already done for Villa and City but most importantly within Liverpool's system it fits Milner's qualities because they have a crucial role of covering in the width behind their very attacking fullbacks which is perfect for someone that has played as a wide midfielder.
And you are the one not thinking about skillset, I talked about role and you think that it means position when it's about how you play the game and why which is linked to skillset and mentality. In your mind it seems that a role is just a spot on the field when it's not.
Real Madrid with Hazard In the starting XI: 7 win, 5 draw y 2 lost.
Performance with HAZARD: 62%
Real Madrid without Hazard in the starting XI: 14 Win, 6 draw y 2 lost.
Performance without HAZARD: 73%
Still very few games to be fair, but theres a tendency.
I'm not really sure what that shluld prove, to be honest. Initially this debate emerged because I said that Hazard would be better than Mane in that system.
Don't you think you're dismissing those examples a little bit too easily? I mean, you're explaining me that the roles as a left winger in those two systems are vastly different to each other but when I name youna striker that Klopp turned into a right back you are all like 'what? He wanted an attacking fullback, that' s why' as if it was the logical choice in such a situation and quite common practice.
See, a role for me is how you interpret a position. Which runs you make, where you position yourself in possession, how you work against the ball and which decisions you make in certain situations. Pisczek was not only a switch of position but also in role because he had to learn new runs, adapt his decision making and so forth. In a system that grants players much freedom, those roles are usually defined by a players nature but coaches so obsessed with tactics as Klopp or Guardiola grant only a minimum of that. They instruct you how to behave in the build up, in pressing situations, after losses of possession and so forth.
So no, a footballer is no robot that can be controlled like a FIFA character but he's a human being with the general ability to listen to and execute instructions he is given. Of course it doesn't make sense to buy a player only to tansform him completely and most importantly, the role he can occupy requires a certain skill set he should have. But Hazard has played the same position, the changes he'd need to make to his game are anything but undoable. Would he play like Mane? No he wouldn't. Would he play like Chelsea Hazard? No he wouldn't. It would be something new and the question is if it was better than the current version - and I'd say yes. You mention Salah's goal tallye. Hazard has constantly scored ~15 goals in the EPL although he was occupied in the build up of Chelsea's attacks much more than he would be in that Liverpool team. His numbers would most likely skyrocket since he can pick up much more easy goals and would find himself in many more one on ones or situations in which he has space to attack.
And as good as Mane is, Hazard is one of the very, very few players who would be a clear improvement on him. Mane may have a little bit more end speed but Hazard is practically undefendable in one on ones. I understand if you see that differently and IMO that's the actual debate, not the stuff abou roles and positions: Would Hazard's skill set allow him to be even better than Mane in Liverpool's system? And to me, the answer is a strong yes. I'd be thrilled to finally see a player of such calibre under Klopp because IMO, he hasn't had a player of Hazard's ability in his teams up until now. And when you see how he makes every player punch above his weight, sky'd be the limit for Hazard.
No end product. Fat. And now always injured. FLOP
I’ve watched nothing of him this season but what the hell happened?
Madrid got their own little taste of Alexis sanchez, that's what happened