Evra accuses Suarez of racist remarks | Suarez guilty of racial abuse

redman5 said:
Considering the copious amounts of black players that have had longer Premiership careers without any reports of racial abuse, then yes, I'd consider 2 in 6 years to be something of an anomaly. What makes it even more suspicious, is the fact that these allegations have come on the grounds of 2 of United's fiercest rivals - If Suarez is guilty, then he'll deserve everything that's coming to him. But falsely accusing someone of racial abuse is just as serious as racial abuse itself. Therefore, I trust the FA will come down hard on Patrice Evra should his allegations be found to be untrue.
Click to expand...

From all the anti-racism campaigns of the last number of years, one message that keeps coming out is that there's still a massive problem with players not coming forward about racist abuse.

I would say the players who do come forward are the minority.
 
africanspur said:
Were only dismissed because of lack of evidence? I would say that is a bloody good reason to dismiss something! Whether the staff member was racist or not, the Man utd staff members are hardly likely to come out saying Evra is a liar are they?

Apologies, it seems the Finnan incident I was thinking about was actually a fan, not Evra.



I can tell you from personal experience that you can't. Or that its almost impossible. I'm not saying Evra is a liar, just find it strange that of all the black players in the league, he seems to be the one receiving the brunt of the racism still left in the game.

I'm not a Liverpool fan mate so I can be slightly more objective on the matter than most of the people commenting on this thread I think! ;) That's also a very dangerous road to go down, we don't have a history of him doing it but because we don't know 100% either way, we can't dismiss it? Innocent until proven guilty for me.
Click to expand...

I just don't think Evra would come out and lie about a player. Suarez is a sneaky fecker. He's dived in the past and moaned about not getting decisions. He's pulled players head back to get a reaction. The problem is that lets say nothing happens, that means in peoples minds Suarez is automatically innocent by default. It's a failed system :(
 
africanspur said:
I can tell you from personal experience that you can't. Or that its almost impossible. I'm not saying Evra is a liar, just find it strange that of all the black players in the league, he seems to be the one receiving the brunt of the racism still left in the game.

I'm not a Liverpool fan mate so I can be slightly more objective on the matter than most of the people commenting on this thread I think! ;) That's also a very dangerous road to go down, we don't have a history of him doing it but because we don't know 100% either way, we can't dismiss it? Innocent until proven guilty for me.
Click to expand...

Does this "brunt" equate to one incident in 6 years playing football in the Premier League?

The Chelsea incident involved him reacting to being (allegedly) called an "immigrant", which isn't playing the race card in any conventional sense.
 
This is the strangest myth in football, like Liam Miller, who didn't exist.

I seem to remember Evra making comments about Thuram acting like Malcolm X, then you take the comments about him mentioning racism in his native Senegal and you realise that Evra is just honest and open about racism.
 
How long before Suarez gets booed on every football pitch in England?

He really has all the attributes
 
kouroux said:
Just seeing this now.Can someone quickly summarize what's happened ?
Click to expand...

Something happened.
Liverpool fans want Suarez to be canonised.
United fans want Suarez to be shot at dawn.
:D
 
SharkyMcShark said:
Not being able to conclusively prove something didn't happen, and it not actually happening, are two very different things.
Click to expand...

Indeed they are and as I said, I have personal experience in experiencing racism and being unable to conclusively prove it.

That does not mean that we can simply brand someone a racist based simply on two individual opposing accounts.


Pogue Mahone said:
Does this "brunt" equate to one incident in 6 years playing football in the Premier League?

The Chelsea incident involved him reacting to being (allegedly) called an "immigrant", which isn't playing the race card in any conventional sense.
Click to expand...


Just because it isn't conventional, doesn't mean it isn't the race card being played (though I hate that term because I feel that it dismisses actual cases of racism).

I can't really remember too many other accusations of racism occurring within the premier league in the past 6 years though I am guessing there are examples that I will have forgotten.

Look, my own personal opinion is..there was some kind of comment aimed at Evra from Suarez that either was explicitly racist or which Evra interpreted as racist. However, I do not think that this comment was made 10 times (ie Evra is exaggerating), that it will be almost impossible to prove either way and that it is a very dangerous road to go down to simply believe Suarez is a racist without any proof other than Evra's word.
 
There are a lot of comments regarding Suarez and Evra that come very close to the 'one good Jew' line of argument.

It is perfectly possible to be either racist, have a racist mentality and openly racially discriminate against an individual and have friends who are black/asian/chinese etc.
 
Nani Nana said:
How long before Suarez gets booed on every football pitch in England?

He really has all the attributes
Click to expand...

Can we start now? The man is one of the filthiest players I have seen for a long time. A disgusting player to watch. Very good player but over-rated by some too I feel.
 
Christ. Got drawn into an argument over at another forum over this. Stupid scouse bastard seems deadset in his idea that Evra's making it up and this is all just a sham to besmirch Suarez's reputation as a clean footballer
 
Suarez has a reputation as a clean footballer? With who exactly? I would hope that even Uruguayans and Liverpool fans would be objective enough to admit that he's about the biggest cheat in the league right now.
 
Yeah, I know I'm biased but...I can't help but laugh at some of the 'the reason why United are stirring all this up is because they fear us now' stuff on Liverpool boards. I'm more fearful of wasps.
 
africanspur said:
Just because it isn't conventional, doesn't mean it isn't the race card being played (though I hate that term because I feel that it dismisses actual cases of racism).

I can't really remember too many other accusations of racism occurring within the premier league in the past 6 years though I am guessing there are examples that I will have forgotten.

Look, my own personal opinion is..there was some kind of comment aimed at Evra from Suarez that either was explicitly racist or which Evra interpreted as racist. However, I do not think that this comment was made 10 times (ie Evra is exaggerating), that it will be almost impossible to prove either way and that it is a very dangerous road to go down to simply believe Suarez is a racist without any proof other than Evra's word.
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to think the most dangerous road to go down is to not take accusations of racism seriously, or to try and undermine the complaint from the player concerned by bringing up a previous incident he's been involved in as a veiled attempt to portray him a serial troublemaker who tells lies about racism, just to stir shit.

That's the worst possible way to combat a very real issue in the game IMO.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm inclined to think the most dangerous road to go down is to not take accusations of racism seriously, or to try and undermine the complaint from the player concerned by bringing up previous incidents he's been involved in as a veiled attempt to portray him a serial troublemaker who tells lies about racism, just to stir shit. That's the worst possible way to combat a very real issue in the game.
Click to expand...

And you're under the impression that this is what I was doing?

I have never been accused of dismissing racism too easily before, if anything the accusations have been the exact opposite. But forgive me for not being ready to hang, draw and quarter Suarez just yet, based on what we've been presented with.
 
africanspur said:
Suarez has a reputation as a clean footballer? With who exactly? I would hope that even Uruguayans and Liverpool fans would be objective enough to admit that he's about the biggest cheat in the league right now.
Click to expand...

Trying to tell a liverpool fan that Suarez is a dirty footballer is like walking up to a beehive trying to spark conversation with the bees :nervous:
 
Chris Kamara said he'd been racial abused during his time as footballer...but since it was always his word against another bloke's...he never bothered reporting such incidents.
 
africanspur said:
Suarez has a reputation as a clean footballer? With who exactly? I would hope that even Uruguayans and Liverpool fans would be objective enough to admit that he's about the biggest cheat in the league right now.
Click to expand...

In the same sentence :lol:
 
africanspur said:
Were only dismissed because of lack of evidence? I would say that is a bloody good reason to dismiss something! Whether the staff member was racist or not, the Man utd staff members are hardly likely to come out saying Evra is a liar are they?

Apologies, it seems the Finnan incident I was thinking about was actually a fan, not Evra.
Click to expand...

Of course it's a good reason, but the way people have been saying it (on here, on twitter etc.) makes it sound like Evra's allegations were actually dismissed because of evidence supporting the Chelsea groundsman. Fact is that Evra, Phelan and Richard Hartis (goalkeeping coach) all said they heard the groundsman calling Evra "fecking immigrant". The FA however decided they were all lying because of technicalities.
Phelan wrote two statements five months apart, and in the second statement he wrote that the comment came at a different time than he reported in the first. Given the stuff that was going on at the time it's hardly surprising that he didn't remember it exactly in the order it all happened five months after the incident, but apparently The FA thought otherwise.

The United staff members could've chosen to say they haven't heard it, or simply not back him up, couldn't they? It isn't a question of saying either "Evra's lying" or "Evra's telling the truth". I highly doubt that some very respected staff members of the club would support Evra's claim if they weren't 100% sure they've heard it themselves.


Anyway, glad you accepted that it's only a matter of one previous case really. Does Evra's history matter then? As already pointed out studies have shown that racism is still a very big problem, but that almost no-one wants to report it. Seeing this case, do you really wonder why?

It's almost impossible to prove, as you'll have to rely on lip-reading (and an extraordinary good camera angle to give you a perfect view of it) and even that's up for discussion. Just look at the case from La Liga back in may where Busquets were caught on camera saying "mono" but escaped without punishment, even though he tried to cover his mouth to hide it. It's almost impossible to win for the player reporting racist abuse, and everyone will say he lied if it isn't proven. Just look at how people (yourself included) refer to Evra's so-called "history of resorting to playing the race-card" in this case.

I understand that it's incredibly hard to judge cases like this. The player being accused is of course innocent until proven guilty, and being accused of being a racist is no minor thing so the evidence should be very strong if the accused was to be convicted. However, as mentioned above, it's near impossible to prove, unless the accused is actually stupid enough to yell it out so other players hear it or a microphone picks it up.

What can be changed though is the attitude towards players accusing others of racist remarks. The stick that Evra is getting from opposition fans (and journos) is simply insane. You'd think that Evra accuses other players of racist abuse weekly when you read some of the shit people are saying about his "history".
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
Chris Kamara said he'd been racial abused during his time as footballer...but since it was always his word against another bloke's...he never bothered reporting such incidents.
Click to expand...

this is a test of the FA stand on kicking out racism from the sport. I assume it was more aimed at supporters. The players certainly would be expected to set an example.

if you dont report such incidents how are we going to get rid of the problem.
 
It doesn't really matter what Suarez said and didn't say - unless a camera by some miracle picked up what he said, it will be impossible to prove. So I am 99% certain nothing will happen

And we can always complain about the FA - but you can't ban a player without any sort of proof!
 
africanspur said:
And you're under the impression that this is what I was doing?

I have never been accused of dismissing racism too easily before, if anything the accusations have been the exact opposite. But forgive me for not being ready to hang, draw and quarter Suarez just yet, based on what we've been presented with.
Click to expand...

My comment wasn't aimed directly at you. Redman5 seems to be the poster most blatantly trying to hold that past incident at Chelsea against Evra (as well as initially implying it was one of many). Him and a whole bunch of other Liverpool fans, by all accounts. It's a really nasty response to a sitiuation like this. Not dissimilar to a girl accusing someone of rape and people responding by pointing out she has a history of being promiscuous.

As for Suarez, I don't really care what happens to him but this accusation needs to be taken seriously.
 
SteveJ said:
Yeah, I know I'm biased but...I can't help but laugh at some of the 'the reason why United are stirring all this up is because they fear us now' stuff on Liverpool boards. I'm more fearful of wasps.
Click to expand...

You got a problem with white anglo saxon protestants? Racist twat!
 
lysglimt said:
It doesn't really matter what Suarez said and didn't say - unless a camera by some miracle picked up what he said, it will be impossible to prove. So I am 99% certain nothing will happen

And we can always complain about the FA - but you can't ban a player without any sort of proof!
Click to expand...

The camera clearly caught Busquets saying "Mono Mono" (Which means "Monkey Monkey" to Marcelo but was cleared after claiming he said "Mucho Morro" which means "Some nerve".

Add to this equation Suarez's fecking great toothy mouth, plus the fact he grew up speaking Spanish which means his mouth actions will be quite different and it could be hard to lip read.

The sad thing is, cnuts like him go through life getting away with everything because they basically don't care that everyone knows they are a cnut and because of this the punishment that would actually make any sort of effect on them would be deemed "harsh" and "victimising because of who he is".

If there was conclusive evidence that he racially taunted Evra and the FA had any backbone whatsoever then the right outcome would be a lifetime ban from the English game. It's 2011 and we don't tolerate this sort of draconian shit anymore, a message should be sent out and it wouldn't happen again.
 
Pexbo said:
The camera clearly caught Busquets saying "Mono Mono" (Which means "Monkey Monkey" to Marcelo but was cleared after claiming he said "Mucho Morro" which means "Some nerve".

Add to this equastion Suarez's fecking great toothy mouth, plus the fact he grew up speaking Spanish which means his mouth actions will be quite different and it could be hard to lip read.

The sad thing is, cnuts like him go through life getting away with everything because they basically don't care that everyone knows they are a cnut and because of this the punishment that would actually make any sort of effect on them would be deemed "harsh" and "victimising because of who he is".

If there was conclusive evidence that he racially taunted Evra and the FA had any backbone whatsoever then the right outcome would be a lifetime ban from the English game. It's 2011 and we don't tolerate this sort of draconian shit anymore, a message should be sent out and it wouldn't happen again.
Click to expand...

The camera didn't clear catch him saying "Mono mono" it pictured him saying something which looked at least similar to that. Lip-reading isn't always exact and different people give different interpretations at times, as you've alluded to.
 
Brophs said:
The camera didn't clear catch him saying "Mono mono" it pictured him saying something which looked at least similar to that. Lip-reading isn't always exact and different people give different interpretations at times, as you've alluded to.
Click to expand...

It caught him saying something which looked remarkably like "mono mono" while covering most of his mouth trying hide it. Wasn't enough evidence, which just shows how difficult it is to prove.

Edit, just to clarify a bit: It's the covering of his mouth which is odd for me in the Busquets case. Why on earth would he cover his mouth like that, if he's not saying something he shouldn't? When that and lip-reading isn't enough evidence there's nothing you can do really, is there?
 
Brophs said:
The camera didn't clear catch him saying "Mono mono" it pictured him saying something which looked at least similar to that. Lip-reading isn't always exact and different people give different interpretations at times, as you've alluded to.
Click to expand...

That's kinda my point.



If he said Mucho Moro like he claimed you'd have seen his teeth at the point of "ch" as it was you could see a rolled tongue for the "n".

I'm sure he really needed to cover his mouth to say "Some Nerve" I'd expect him to actually walk up to Marcelo and shout that not fecking hide it behind his hand.

It's bloody obvious what he said to everyone, but as my point was, camera evidence isn't conclusive eveidence without clear sound.

Wowi said:
It caught him saying something which looked remarkably like "mono mono" while covering most of his mouth trying hide it. Wasn't enough evidence, which just shows how difficult it is to prove.

Edit, just to clarify a bit: It's the covering of his mouth which is odd for me in the Busquets case. Why on earth would he cover his mouth like that, if he's not saying something he shouldn't? When that and lip-reading isn't enough evidence there's nothing you can do really, is there?
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
Red Dreams said:
Steve you racist Welshman. :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

:lol:

I remember, in my younger & more stoopid days, discussing racism with a mate. I said something like: "It's the bloody English who're all racist!" What a twonk...
 
SteveJ said:
:lol:

I remember, in my younger & more stoopid days, discussing racism with a mate. I said something like: "It's the bloody English who're all racist!" What a twonk...
Click to expand...

:lol:

BTW, not sure if it's true but a Welsh mate of mine said that apparantly "Welsh" is an old english word for "Foriegn".

He followed it up with "Doesn't matter where I fecking go even if I'm in Wales I'm a fecking Foriegner!"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.