Did Verstappen get any points on his licence for either of these incidents?
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
2 points for the brake check.
All I know is Netflix management is rock hard right now.
Max fanboy, Lewis fanboy or anything inbetween.. Yesterday was crazy.. I didnt understand half the things going on and how all the (absense of) penalties were lining up..
The only thing I really dont understand (regardless of any penalties or blame) why in hell Lewis stayed behind Max when he slowed down, and was even gearing back a couple times before bumping into his back.. I mean.. Why not just pass him, regardless of what you might think was going on?
The only thing I really dont understand (regardless of any penalties or blame) why in hell Lewis stayed behind Max when he slowed down, and was even gearing back a couple times before bumping into his back.. I mean.. Why not just pass him, regardless of what you might think was going on?
I think this too, at the moment the advantage sits with Max, just from reading this thread and other fans reaction no one will be surprised if max takes them both out as he has the the most wins advantage.
The stewards must also see how wreckless max has been driving and It would have been a totally different final race if they had penalised him so they didn’t sit on equal points giving the advantage of a double wipe out to Lewis.
The other incidents don't matter so much, but brake checking on a 180mph straight is downright dangerous. It's a disqualification. Max knew exactly where Hamilton was, he knew what he was doing. A driver as talented as Hamilton got away with a broken wing, anybody else and that's a big crash at very high speed.
The stewards and Masi have been so obvious the last few races in trying to push for a final day showdown between the two. They've forgotten their job is to manage the safety of the race, not the spectacle, and they don't realise the pedestal they've now put Max on vs the other drivers.
The stewards and Masi have been so obvious the last few races in trying to push for a final day showdown between the two. They've forgotten their job is to manage the safety of the race, not the spectacle, and they don't realise the pedestal they've now put Max on vs the other drivers.
The integrity of the rule book and power of the stewards is basically destroyed, not just this race either, all season.
All these drivers will be watching on and taking notes, 2022 could end up with stupid racing because they have let too much go this year. Let’s hope antics doesn’t get someone seriously hurt.
All these drivers will be watching on and taking notes, 2022 could end up with stupid racing because they have let too much go this year. Let’s hope antics doesn’t get someone seriously hurt.
Perhaps you should open your eyes if you've never seen me acknowledge anything Max has done wrong as I've done that plenty of times. Actually, in the post this thing started with I say I agree with a post that says Max was reckless in some corners, etc. But that doesn't fit your narrative does it? It's actually not really a response to Max doing anything at all. My post is just about Mercedes and how if you mention anything Mercedes did wrong on here you get posts like the one you just made making it all about Max. It's as if you can't talk about anything other than what everyone on here thinks Max did wrong, because then "you're trying to play a silly game of whataboutism".
Also, if that gap before the restart is in no way in violation of the rules then the rules need serious looking at because it's completely unfair to create a practically guaranteed overtake on the restart like that.
Lewis pushing Max off the road for a 5s penalty
I see we’ve already forgotten Brazil
No, I actually didn't agree with how the stewards handled the Brazil incident (there's posts about it if you want to look back). But I don't agree with how they handled this either. Do you not agree that doing something with the sole purpose of pushing your rival off the track is worthy of a penalty regardless of the outcome? Is your point here "Max pushed Lewis off in Brazil so he has a right to push him off here"?
Yeah - I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some big announcements on new rules/a promise to clamp down on certain actions in 2022.
They're wanting to reap the rewards of an insanely exciting season, but it's not a sustainable way to race/puts far too many drivers at risk.
As soon as the Brazil incident happened, people on here were saying that the FIA had caused a huge problem for themselves. They had made it OK for a driver to do anything to stop a driver overtaking on the outside and push them as far out as they want.
The FIA can't start punishing for it now until the end of the season and really need to sort themselves out to make the regulations clear at that point. When even drivers are tweeting and giving interviews saying that they will adjust their driving styles because of Brazil you know something is very wrong. It's all on Masi, but that was a precedent decision that they can't go back on now.
Wow.
Any excuse to condone Maxs dangerous driving. The examples you have made are nowhere near as dangerous as what Max did. The guy had no class and worse than that he is a liability. He could cause serious injury to another driver one day with this type of driving.
My thoughts exactly.
You know that Max pushed it too far when even his own race engineer came over the radio and said "We didn't need to be doing that".
If Max purely just slowed down with downshifts and pulled over to 1 side of the track then i'd say ok stupid place to do it but fair enough.
The clear fact is though he was weaving, then slammed his foot on the brake to cause a collision. If the FIA didn't want a last race spectacle he'd have been disqualified for that IMO.
If Max purely just slowed down with downshifts and pulled over to 1 side of the track then i'd say ok stupid place to do it but fair enough.
The clear fact is though he was weaving, then slammed his foot on the brake to cause a collision. If the FIA didn't want a last race spectacle he'd have been disqualified for that IMO.
The lack of fair play is not enjoyable. The lack of appropriate punishment for unfair and dangerous driving reduces enjoyment.
There’s three problems with this:
1) Hamilton had no idea he was being let through (he hadn’t the message at that point) so saying he was thinking about the DRS line cannot be true. From his position on the track all he can see is Max slowing right down. Does he have a problem? Is there an incident on track? These coupled with the fact Max is so dangerous, just passing him when he doesn’t know the situation is very risky.
2) The reason Max had to let Lewis through was because of Max’s own mistake. Impacting his race temporarily should not be a consideration in when to pass. Additionally, he was trying to manufacture an illegal “let by” anyway so he doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on.
3) No matter what in F1 you cannot just slam in the brakes in that situation. It’s incredibly dangerous.
If he'd have passed him there, Max would've had DRS going into the main straight
1) he wasn't told Max was letting him past
2) It was Max who can't be trusted not to try to crash him off the track. So its not safe to assume anything with his history.
The whataboutism is because in a race where a driver has been found guilty of a brake test on a straight your comeback is that Lewis drove slowly when he was allowed to and Max didn’t know the rules so didn’t drop back to match.
Your position is akin to watching a player put in a leg breaking challenge and coming back with “well they took a throw in 5 yards too far forward so they’re just as bad”.
Are there any reactions from other drivers to Max's incidents today?
It's a bit naive to suggest anything otherwise, they want the final race to be completely equal and for it to be decided on track & not in the stewards room at the race before.
he reminds me more and more of trump. a man who sees no fault in himself, only fault with others. a man who feels he can say and do what he wants and all others should just let it happen or get over it. a man who is never wrong. when there is no defence the whataboutisms start to fly, there is never a backwards step, never a pause to say i didn’t meet the expectations i set of myself today. it’s not something i’d expect him to do in public, f1 isn’t like that. i get why the team back him too. that’s good management, back him in public, bollock him in private. but it’s clear the bollocking just isn’t happening. he’s doing to same shit time after time, race after race. the same sound bites time after time, race after race. i truly believe he truly believes he has done nothing wrong in every single incident he has ever been a part of. it’s all “just racing” and if you don’t understand that it’s because you don’t understand racing. and to some degree, he’s right. he knows far more about f1 than i do. i know far more about spotting entitled, know it all pricks in their echo chambers than he does though. he’s just a trump, a life of entitlement, a life of always having a safety net, a life of not truly understanding what others have to go through, a life of thinking he always knows best and is always right. a life of feeling superior to everyone else. a life of thinking the world is against him, even though he’s has every advantage thrown his way. a life of not caring who he treads on as long as it gets him to the top. he’s just a spoilt brat.
i can’t say i’m surprised by that. he is supported by rabid fanbase who root for him no matter what (driver of the day, though to be fair to him, he did pull the move of the day.) a fanbase who believe wild conspiracies are in place to stop him getting to the top, even though he’s been treated with far more leniency than most. a fanbase who think he’s some kind of messiah, even though he is the embodiment of some of the worst aspects of f1. most f1 drivers are entitled pricks who truly believe they are the best in the world. that truly believe the only thing that is holding them back is a poor engine/team/stewardship of races. most of them also start to mellow when they get a bit older and wiser. most of them start out jumping into gaps that aren’t there because they can’t believe other, more experienced drivers wouldn’t put their car there. most have collision after collision as a result. they eventually learn 3 points are better than no points. inexplicably, max continues to do the same shit, warning after warning, collision after collision penalty after penalty. it’s almost a rite of passage that max doesn’t think he needs to finish walking through.
i just don’t see where max is learning anything. it’s just the same record played race after race. the only difference nowadays is other racers think for him and get out of his way, in his early days they assumed he’d have more duty of care and were surprised to find a car in their side moments later. max never yields. you let him overtake or you crash, you don’t take evasive action and you crash. it’s the same as just ploughing head on into someone driving on your side of the road because you had right of way, even if you had time to get over and avoid an accident. i don’t think he’s left any benefit of doubt now, he’s just a piece of shit.
and i’m not surprised by that. he has a narcissistic piece of shit father who is with him every step of the way. he’s surrounded by piece of shit bosses who follow the same idols of never criticising him and only enabling him. it’s a shame he’s talented. i honestly have no idea why he’s deified by the same people who vilify mazepin. they’re literal caricatures of each other, minus the speed and a few zeros in daddy’s bank account.
he seems to cut an increasingly isolated figure around the paddock, there doesn’t seem to be much chemistry between him and any of his teammates, past or present, or any of the other drivers or teams. there doesn’t even seem to be much begrudging respect. i never see him walking around the paddock making time to say hello or speak to other teams. he probably assumes they should be approaching him and don’t because they are all insanely jealous of him and how fast he is, rather than just because they think he’s a twat. the paddock is a sea of pricks with superiority complexes and egos to match. to not be able to find some common ground among them is a little worrying. the voices of the other drivers defending him seem to get quieter and quieter. it could be that all this is happening away from the cameras or i’ve just missed it completely, but i can’t recall as single moment of it. maybe he wasn’t always like that, maybe just fighting for the title for a few years has broken him. he just comes across as a weird guy, void of any charisma. it’s like all his f1 career personality points went on driving ability and every other aspect of his being was ignored.
i hated the schumacher years, i hated the vettel years. admittedly, the hamilton years are slightly more palatable as he is british, he brings some diversity to the rich daddy’s boy playground, he has a good backstory, and latterly, is trying to use his platform to bring about change (more than a little ironically at any given moment.) i’d still rather someone else won it, at least occasionally. utter domination isn’t good for any sport. however i’d rather see hamilton dominate for another 20 years than have verstappen win one wdc whilst behaving like this as it would only further legitimise his actions in his own mind. there would be somehow even less contrition for things that happened in future.
i’ve completely jumped the fence with regards to max. i have gone from hoping he’d reign it in and fulfil his talent to now being relieved if he never won another race. if both retired tomorrow, the sport would miss hamilton way more than verstappen. the next entitled daddy’s prick would roll off the wagon and the likes of gasly, le clerc and norris would provide the speed and drama. max is beginning to detract from the sport race after race now. every break between races is dominated by people debating his actions in the previous race. hamilton is at least wearing some killer clothes to race weekends and trying to bring about social change. one thing is for sure, max needs to change.
if max wins next week, it will be a testament to his driving ability and he does deserve to win the wdc for that but when all is said and done, he’ll be remembered for being that bloke that was fast and not a lot else. but to be fair to him, he seems like he’s ok with that.
They could have give a total of 20secknds so he finished 3rd or 4th this race and then not have the double wipeout = win for him scenario in the final race.
That's mad though isn't it, when you think about it. It's like letting an offside VAR goal stand on the penultimate round of games to ensure the title race is taken to the final day.
They've now set the precedent that brake testing somebody is a 10s penalty
Sorry, you're naive to think that they would do anything else. I had it down as a fine or reprimand so that it would go into the final round. Remember this is an entertainment business dressed as a sport. They would never do anything that would disrupt the narrative of the final race.
Max is lucky to walk away with just a 10 second penalty if I'm honest. Some of the driving this year has set precedents across the board, but I didn't see them doing anything that would jeopardise the final race in that it would go in completely equal.
1) Even so.. The whole point of racing is to pass drivers which are slower than you right..
2) If this is an argument, why bother even racing at all? If it hinders you from making attempts to take on another driver because you are scared of collision?
Dont get me wrong, I fully see Max did some dangerous driving yesterday and was all but flawless.. I also agree with the penalties about gaining advantage etc in the turns.. I just really dont see why this individual moment was more his fault than Lewis' or Mercedes that Lewis bumped him.. Lewis' in his post race interview also stated that Max braked all of a sudden, while you can clearly see Lewis gearing back twice before touching Max, so he was conscious and aware of what was happening and it wasnt our of reflex that Max suddenly hit the breaks...
Yeah I agree with you on most parts tbh.
1) Agreement in that Lewis probably didn't know. He could've suspected from the incident earlier on the same lap where he went on radio to complain about Max, but they're used to being told when someone lets them past, so I agree with him not knowing. Max lifted for quite a while before braking, Lewis had a chance to overtake prior to the contact. I think it's more likely he didn't because of the corners coming up. I don't think whether there's an incident plays into mind, because it'd be flagged on circuit and on dash, and Max lifted for longer than he himself could see ahead.
2) The purpose of giving a place back is to reset track position, and negating the illegal overtake. Prior to the illegal overtake, the overtaking car is close enough to attempt an overtake. They aren't 7 tenths apart. The purpose is to give the place back in any case. It should done at the earliest convenience that doesn't create a dangerous situation, and no other factors like DRS detection points should come into play. It shouldn't benefit the leading car by waiting for an opportune part of the track, and it shouldn't benefit the trailing car by waiting once the leading car gives way. That impacts the race for either car more than intended. It should like blue flags. If you pass more than x corners/flags without giving way after receiving a notification, you should get a warning, or just get the usual 5-second penalty immediately.
Max was trying to let Lewis past before the incident, and Lewis should've been notified before Max so he could pass once Max gave way. That way there'd be no contact.
3) Agreed. I think looking from Max's point of view, he would assume Lewis was informed, and refused to pass. As Max clearly had thought about the DRS line, and would think Lewis had the same tactic, he probably then got frustrated, possibly already feeling aggrieved, as they both would've been at that point, decided to force the overtake, thinking it was a foul move by Lewis not to overtake immediately, and then ending up being in the wrong himself.
Sum of it for me is that none of the contact would happen if Lewis was informed about Max giving the place back earlier, and then overtaking him before the incident.
Also, that Max was predominantly at fault for the contact.
Eh, it's hard to take aim at Merc right now with how Max is behaving. Yes, they slowed down under the safety car (which was mainly to double-stack quickly), but Max is literally driving so dangerously and getting away with it, of course he becomes the talking point. He's the one crossing the line.
Well.. He is not getting away with it right?
He was punished for it every time during the race, and now also got the 10seconds penalty post-race..
Oh yeah, because the 10second had a huge impact on the race outcome didn't it. The stewards full well knew that would do nothing to the outcome hence why they didn't even hesitate to give that penalty. It basically sets the precedent that he can continue to drive stupidly next week.
So... Basically just like Lewis in Silverstone?
Just like Max in Brazil? At least Lewis got a penalty in Silverstone...
and let's get this straight, if it was vice versa in Silverstone, there would've been no contact, Lewis would've pulled out (as we have seen from numerous occasions recently). I'm not saying it was Max's fault, it was 60/40 Lewis' fault imo. It's like Brazil, if that was vice versa, Max would've probably crashed out the race and Horner would've cried at Hamilton for trying to "kill" Max.
I think a lot of people cut Max a bit of slack when he started as it was incredible that somebody so young was in F1
If he wins next weekend he will become the 3rd youngest champion after vettel and lewis which is a great achievement but its also time to hold him to account as an experienced racer
If he wins next weekend and takes the title he will do so in his 141'st GP
To put that in perspective the only drivers who have had more GP experience when winning their first title are
Button 169 GP's
Mansell 179 GP's
N Rosberg 206 GP's
non of whom deserved to be cut any slack because of experience of course
Max is now a very experienced driver and way more than 30 of the 33 people who have become world champion - and frankly hes driving round like a spoiled little karting brat
if he crashes out next week I half expect something like this from him
And thats a massive shame because he is undoubtedly massivley talented and quick
But he is also now massivley experienced and needs to cut out the crap
for reference Number of GP's before becoming World Champion
7 Farina
15 Fangio
21 Ascari
25 Fittipaldi
27 Brabham
30 Clarke
30 Hulme
33 Villneuve
35 Hamilton
37 P Hill
41 G Hill
47 Surtees
47 Stewart
49 Piquet
52 Hunt
52 K Rosberg
54 Schumacher
55 Lauda
58 Vettel
59 Hawthorn
62 Rindt
67 D Hill
68 Alonso
76 Jones
77 Senna
82 Andretti
88 Prost
97 Schekter
112 Haakenen
122 Raikkonen
141 Verstappen (* if he wins the championship next weekend)
169 Button
179 Mansell
206 N Rosberg
If max looses this season but wins next season he retains the same position above button... if he does not win till 2023 he would drop below Button and Mansell - if he didnt win till 2024 or later he would drop below Rosberg
But for certain hes an experienced driver in F1 and should rightly be held to account for his driving
Im not trying to argue with you Max did dangerous driving or make this a Max vs Lewis thing..
All Im implying is that Max was punished during the race mulitple times everytime he did the dangerous driving and he now got a post-match punishment which is in line with other punishments during the season...
He got "punished" sure, but brake testing an f1 car at those speeds should be deemed a higher penalty let's be honest. Can you imagine if Hamilton did that and the outrage Horner would cause over it?
Brazil he didn't get punished, and then he gets a "punishment" after the race that has no impact at all for really stupid driving. That's very lucky if you ask me and due to that, he'll most likely continue to drive like this next week.
I think the bigger issue is Max has taken none of it on board. He thinks he's being unfairly penalised.
His after radio comments about not letting us race and the fans know racing, too many penalties etc just show he's not learning his lesson.
There's a fine line between good defensive driving and over aggression. I do blame the FIA in the way they've been dealing with a lot of these situations.
When you look at the Brazil incident that they failed to penalise him for - he's done the exact same thing again (braking too late to make the corner, covering off hamilton and forcing them both off track to keep the lead) but this time they acted swiftly to give the right decision.
He will only end up hurting himself if he carries this on, but nobody seems wise enough to tell him to stop.
I think what Max did in Brazil deserved a penalty. I think this incident is different insofar as Hamilton did not leave the track himself, and he didn’t actually “push” Max of the road in the same way Max did in Brazil. He simply took the outside line of the track but left Max no space. So to me, they are different. Hamilton’s, was it worthy of a penalty? I’m not so sure. It certainly was on the line of acceptable. I don’t personally like to see it, but given everything that happened I can understand it.
But most importantly, my reaction was to your post where you’re suggesting Lewis got away with it. I categorically refute that because if you set a precedent with Max in Brazil, whether we agree with it or not, you can’t then apply a different ruleset to this.
That’s my take. I can fully understand why Max fans might be upset about that move he did, but quite frankly you reap what you sow. This is precisely how Max races, time and time again, so it’s incredibly rich to complain about it when someone else does it. Having said that - in fairness to Max, there wasn’t any radio message (that was played at least) where he did complain. And he didn’t complain after the race. So at least he isn’t two-facing that issue, unless I’ve missed it.
But the outcome of the championship would still be decided in the final race, if anything it would make it a better race as I feel now there’s a good chance both cars don’t finish but they get their new champion
Did they think this way when sending Hamilton to the back of the grid at Brazil though?
Are we suggesting it’s ok to punish based on what is most entertaining?
Nah there's nothing naive about wanting rules applied the same to everyone. It's just the FIA is a joke, nothing more to it. They could well be deciding the WC by not taking action too.
They have no backbone and no clue. F1 died when Bernie sold it.
Didn’t want to blast past because it’s completely unusual for someone to suddenly go slow, hence what if there was an accident up ahead? Maybe thought a flag had just come in? Honestly it really isn’t that difficult to understand why he might not immediately just sail past.