F1 2023 Season

Amar__ said:
Hamilton seems convinced they were fast as Max, but they made tactical mistakes. Maybe the difference isn't that big anymore?
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when running in the dry in FP, the Merc was pretty fast and up there, but Lewis is over egging the car , it is better than it was but they are still a way off and the RB DRS gives then even more of an advantage.
Maybe Lewis is toeing the party line, but he is not normally one to do that.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
when running in the dry in FP, the Merc was pretty fast and up there, but Lewis is over egging the car , it is better than it was but they are still a way off and the RB DRS gives then even more of an advantage.
Maybe Lewis is toeing the party line, but he is not normally one to do that.
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Yeah, it's really weird coming from him. Even if they are equal, I wouldn't think he would admit it.
 
First 10 min of race. Interesting insight of drivers and teams and how some of the teams got it wrong. Bottas was first one to call for inters and was ignored.

Lando wanted inters.
Race engineer: “We are faster than inter cars”

Aston: "Fernando, don't be too aggressive on the first lap with the rain"


 
George Russell has urged F1 bosses to scrap the extreme wet tyres after branding them a 'complete waste of time' at last weekend's Dutch Grand Prix. The race at Zandvoort was delayed for around 40 minutes after a torrential downpour flooded the circuit before Max Verstappen registered his ninth straight victory.

All drivers were ordered to run the intermediate tyres when the race was restarted despite the extreme wet tyre being available for use. Russell has since called for the little-used compound to be ditched in favour of simply waiting for the conditions to improve if it is too dangerous to run intermediates.

"The intermediate choice was the right one," said Russell, who failed to finish the race after picking up a late puncture. "That was purely done because the pit lane's too narrow and they knew that everybody would be peeling in from extreme to the inters.

"That extreme tyre is a complete waste of time at the moment and I think it should just be parked. If the conditions are too wet for intermediates, they [should] enforce that we just have to wait until the conditions get better."

I agree with George about the Extreme wet being useless.
They used to work , seen some excellent races in torrential rain.
Get tyre manufactures to to make an extreme wet that works and not just behind the SC car, they have done before.
Why did they use in these races ?
Top 10 wet weather drives in Formula 1 (motorsport.com)
 
pauldyson1uk said:
George Russell has urged F1 bosses to scrap the extreme wet tyres after branding them a 'complete waste of time' at last weekend's Dutch Grand Prix. The race at Zandvoort was delayed for around 40 minutes after a torrential downpour flooded the circuit before Max Verstappen registered his ninth straight victory.

All drivers were ordered to run the intermediate tyres when the race was restarted despite the extreme wet tyre being available for use. Russell has since called for the little-used compound to be ditched in favour of simply waiting for the conditions to improve if it is too dangerous to run intermediates.

"The intermediate choice was the right one," said Russell, who failed to finish the race after picking up a late puncture. "That was purely done because the pit lane's too narrow and they knew that everybody would be peeling in from extreme to the inters.

"That extreme tyre is a complete waste of time at the moment and I think it should just be parked. If the conditions are too wet for intermediates, they [should] enforce that we just have to wait until the conditions get better."

I agree with George about the Extreme wet being useless.
They used to work , seen some excellent races in torrential rain.
Get tyre manufactures to to make an extreme wet that works and not just behind the SC car, they have done before.
Why did they use in these races ?
Top 10 wet weather drives in Formula 1 (motorsport.com)
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Think the bigger issue is how much more spray these modern cars disperse behind them rather than the tyres themselves being ineffective - if it's wet enough to require them, the visibility is inherently so poor that racing isn't safe.
 
No interest in this now. Weird as still watched all the races under Schumacher/Vettel dominance. I think overall, with the shitty Americanisation, I'm just drifting from the sport.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Think the bigger issue is how much more spray these modern cars disperse behind them rather than the tyres themselves being ineffective - if it's wet enough to require them, the visibility is inherently so poor that racing isn't safe.
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They are working on that. The extreme wet rain guards for fronts and rears were tested earlier this season. But still need work. Takes about 20/30 mins to fit them. Basically they are a cover over the top of the tyrez to stop the spray from launching into the air.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
Maybe I just remember things different, rain never used to affect races they way it does now
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I just watched the Senna documentary and the first thing they show is when they red flagged the Monaco GP due to rain (and politics tbf).
 
altodevil said:
No interest in this now. Weird as still watched all the races under Schumacher/Vettel dominance. I think overall, with the shitty Americanisation, I'm just drifting from the sport.
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I still watch and enjoy it, but I can see where you are coming from, at one time I would make sure I was home and watching for qualifying and the race, now if I have to go somewhere when its on, I do it and watch highlight's later
 
pauldyson1uk said:
I still watch and enjoy it, but I can see where you are coming from, at one time I would make sure I was home and watching for qualifying and the race, now if I have to go somewhere when its on, I do it and watch highlight's later
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Yeah same
 
Zlaatan said:
I just watched the Senna documentary and the first thing they show is when they red flagged the Monaco GP due to rain (and politics).
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I remember watching it.
1984 Monaco Grand Prix
The race at which Ayrton Senna first made his presence known in F1, the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix saw the Brazilian driver make his mark by reeling in the McLaren of Alain Prost in heavily wet conditions.

Senna had started the race from 13th in his Toleman, climbing up to second place and setting off in hot pursuit of Prost. With the French driver suffering from a brake imbalance on his McLaren, Prost began waving to the stewards to complain about the track conditions being unsafe as Senna drew ever closer.

The red flag was waved at the end of Lap 32, with Jacky Ickx, course clerk, deciding conditions had become too poor to continue. Senna passed Prost before the finish line on the 32nd lap, but the rules dictated the positions were taken from the last lap completed by every driver – that being Lap 31, when Prost was leading.

Ickx’s decision to stop the race resulted in him being suspended from duty due to making the decision by himself, and raised eyebrows due to his connection to Porsche as a leading sportscar driver – Porsche providing the engine in the back of Prost’s McLaren.

The race being stopped also had repercussions in the title fight. Had it continued until 75% race distance, the full points awarded to Prost for a likely second place (at least) would have resulted in a six-point score, instead of 4.5 for a half-points win. Prost would lose the 1984 title by just half a point.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
I remember watching it.
1984 Monaco Grand Prix
The race at which Ayrton Senna first made his presence known in F1, the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix saw the Brazilian driver make his mark by reeling in the McLaren of Alain Prost in heavily wet conditions.

Senna had started the race from 13th in his Toleman, climbing up to second place and setting off in hot pursuit of Prost. With the French driver suffering from a brake imbalance on his McLaren, Prost began waving to the stewards to complain about the track conditions being unsafe as Senna drew ever closer.

The red flag was waved at the end of Lap 32, with Jacky Ickx, course clerk, deciding conditions had become too poor to continue. Senna passed Prost before the finish line on the 32nd lap, but the rules dictated the positions were taken from the last lap completed by every driver – that being Lap 31, when Prost was leading.

Ickx’s decision to stop the race resulted in him being suspended from duty due to making the decision by himself, and raised eyebrows due to his connection to Porsche as a leading sportscar driver – Porsche providing the engine in the back of Prost’s McLaren.

The race being stopped also had repercussions in the title fight. Had it continued until 75% race distance, the full points awarded to Prost for a likely second place (at least) would have resulted in a six-point score, instead of 4.5 for a half-points win. Prost would lose the 1984 title by just half a point.
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Interesting, didn't know about Ickx and that he was suspended, or that Prost being Prost made him lose the title.
 
dinostar77 said:
Lots of proof of alonso being a difficult character and not building a team around him. Its well known character flaw of alonso that any F1 fan can tell you.

Ferrari got rid if him because they got fed up. Mclaren got rid of him both times because they got fed up. Mercedes wouldnt hire him to replace roseberg, RedBull wouldnt hire him to partner max. Ferrari wouldnt have him back.

His options in the paddock are limited , henece the enstone team on three different occasions.
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No, Ferrari wanted him to stay and Luca di Montezemolo (The Ferrari president) offered him a contract extension. He turned it down because he had lost faith in them providing him a car that could win the championship which was proven right. And Ferrari was built around him.

Where is the proof of this difficult character? Are the F1 fans a source of information now over the teambosses and race engineers accounts of him? Please show me one negative statement from anyone that has worked with Alonso and said he was difficult.
He also left on his terms at McLaren Honda, they never got rid.

Mercedes didnt hire him and Red Bull won't hire him because two alphas in a team cannot coexist and they don't want to upset their star drivers. Ferrari should have been that team for him that dominated but it didn't work out. nothing more.
 
Canagel said:
No, Ferrari wanted him to stay and Luca di Montezemolo (The Ferrari president) offered him a contract extension. He turned it down because he had lost faith in them providing him a car that could win the championship which was proven right. And Ferrari was built around him.

Where is the proof of this difficult character? Are the F1 fans a source of information now over the teambosses and race engineers accounts of him? Please show me one negative statement from anyone that has worked with Alonso and said he was difficult.
He also left on his terms at McLaren Honda, they never got rid.

Mercedes didnt hire him and Red Bull won't hire him because two alphas in a team cannot coexist and they don't want to upset their star drivers. Ferrari should have been that team for him that dominated but it didn't work out. nothing more.
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I dont think he comes over being difficult to work with, I think sometimes he opens his mouth before engaging his brain, but we are all guilty of that sometimes.
 
dinostar77 said:
They are working on that. The extreme wet rain guards for fronts and rears were tested earlier this season. But still need work. Takes about 20/30 mins to fit them. Basically they are a cover over the top of the tyrez to stop the spray from launching into the air.
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That's encouraging - but isn't the problem more down to the diffuser than the tyres? Can't imagine a way to cover that up...
 
F1 teams face fresh flexi-wing clampdown as tricks revealed

Formula 1 teams face a fresh clampdown on flexi wings after this weekend’s Italian Grand Prix, Autosport can reveal, with the FIA moving to counter tricks it believes are illegal.
As first reported earlier this month, the FIA has been taking a close look at flexible wings over the first half of this season as it believes teams have been pushing the boundaries in terms of what is allowed.


It is understood that several teams, including Aston Martin, were advised to make changes to their front wing designs around the time of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix in a bid to ensure that they did not fall foul of any rule breaches.


But as part of a ramped up effort to stop any attempt at getting around the regulations, the FIA has now issued a formal technical directive outlining what it believes are unacceptable designs with regards to flexible bodywork.


In TD018, a copy of which has been seen by Autosport and was sent to teams ahead of the Dutch GP weekend, the FIA states that it believes outfits are exploiting “regions of purposely design localised compliance” plus “relative motion between adjacent components” to deliver a significant boost to aerodynamic performance.


It states that any design that operates like this is in breach of Article 3.2.2 of F1’s Technical Regulations, which states that all components that influence a car’s aerodynamic performance must be “rigidly secured and immobile with respect to their frame of reference defined in Article 3.3. Furthermore, these components must produce a uniform, solid, hard, continuous, impervious surface under all circumstances.”


The FIA has been prompted into action because it believes that teams are exploiting sophisticated systems that rotate and flex front and rear wing elements in ways that cannot be detected through the regular load tests.


It has made it clear that any “assembly designs that exploit localised compliance or degrees of freedom are not permitted.”


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From what I have read, people are concerned that McLaren would be most impacted. Also Alpine rear wing move a lot.
 
Ahmer Baig said:
F1 teams face fresh flexi-wing clampdown as tricks revealed

Formula 1 teams face a fresh clampdown on flexi wings after this weekend’s Italian Grand Prix, Autosport can reveal, with the FIA moving to counter tricks it believes are illegal.



From what I have read, people are concerned that McLaren would be most impacted. Also Alpine rear wing move a lot.
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Alpine’s rear wing is genuinely ridiculous though.
 
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...rlCrByW-nSkNVzMAfcMbswscbJZMy4YXqeDOA4ZpiwThk

What I can read again from all this is that the car fits Verstappen, but at the same time he it looks like he flawless and ridiculously fast unlike Perez, and that Perez is simply much much slower than him.

Have we ever had such a difference between quality of teammates? Why won't some people admit that Max is just ridiculous this season, because there is simply not more arguments left?
 
For me the DRS overtakes seem too effortless and the cars quickly slot into a zone of their own, number two drivers way off the number one driver. The wet can make it interesting but it all seems very specialized to each track and car in the wet or dry and each drivers capabilities. We need a bit more general performance instead of anomalous random bouts of competitiveness.
 
new F2 car.
th
 
Amar__ said:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...rlCrByW-nSkNVzMAfcMbswscbJZMy4YXqeDOA4ZpiwThk

What I can read again from all this is that the car fits Verstappen, but at the same time he it looks like he flawless and ridiculously fast unlike Perez, and that Perez is simply much much slower than him.

Have we ever had such a difference between quality of teammates? Why won't some people admit that Max is just ridiculous this season, because there is simply not more arguments left?
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Well, to be fair, I think most people do admit that he's ridiculous and the best driver on the grid at the moment. I think a lot of people are probably bored of the same bloke winning all the time, so you tend to see people lash out, or perhaps take their frustration out on the driver who's doing all the winning. This is nothing new; it has always been a thing in this sport. I knew loads of people who hated Schumacher (I wasn't a massive fan at the time) because he would bloody win everything.

Ultimately though, and I've always said this, if you don't like the driver who's doing all the winning, you will put more emphasis on he car. Conversely, if you're a big fan of the driver, then you will emphasise his skills more (while also admitting the car is the best, because you would be delusional to think otherwise). It's how it is.
 
Amar__ said:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...rlCrByW-nSkNVzMAfcMbswscbJZMy4YXqeDOA4ZpiwThk

What I can read again from all this is that the car fits Verstappen, but at the same time he it looks like he flawless and ridiculously fast unlike Perez, and that Perez is simply much much slower than him.

Have we ever had such a difference between quality of teammates? Why won't some people admit that Max is just ridiculous this season, because there is simply not more arguments left?
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because its not that simple to anyone who actually understands how F1 works. The RB has been built around Max's driving style and not Perez's. Therefore its harder for Perez to drive the car. Its why being a no1 driver is so important. Just look at albion performances at Williams. The car has been built around his driving style. Put him in the RB right now and he will struggle as much as Perez.

You can start to see similar stuff at Mercedes since James Allison came back. They are going back to building the car around what Hamilton needs and its slowly going away from Russell.

Ironically Perez and Russell would make good teammates as they have very similar smooth, precise, clean driving style. In the same team the car would suit both of them.

As for Max, yes a great driver, but he has no competition and may not do so next year. Not his fault. However its all very similar to how Vettels early career was progressing and people thought he might go onto be a 7 or 8 times world champion.

When you have no oppositon to benchmark you and no teammate to challenge you, its difficult to gauge if its the car or the driver. Again parellels with Vettels 4 WDC's.

Give Hamilton, Alonso, Leclerc a properly competitive car to challenge max and then the question can be answered.
 
Lewis will be hoping to get an inside track on the 2026 engines and try and repeat his 2013 trick if one has a big advantage.
 
dinostar77 said:
Hmmm...so hes a free agent for 2026 when the rules change. Thats interesting.
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How old will he be then, though? 42 is it. He still has it in him, of course. He's still a great driver. When I saw this current contact was until 2025, i thought maybe he calls it quits after that. Or maybe, as you imply, he's going to wait for the rule changes to see how that impacts Mercedes before he makes his next big move. Because that will definitely be his last contact you would imagine, so I guess this is a smart thing to do.
 
dinostar77 said:
because its not that simple to anyone who actually understands how F1 works. The RB has been built around Max's driving style and not Perez's. Therefore its harder for Perez to drive the car. Its why being a no1 driver is so important. Just look at albion performances at Williams. The car has been built around his driving style. Put him in the RB right now and he will struggle as much as Perez.

You can start to see similar stuff at Mercedes since James Allison came back. They are going back to building the car around what Hamilton needs and its slowly going away from Russell.

Ironically Perez and Russell would make good teammates as they have very similar smooth, precise, clean driving style. In the same team the car would suit both of them.

As for Max, yes a great driver, but he has no competition and may not do so next year. Not his fault. However its all very similar to how Vettels early career was progressing and people thought he might go onto be a 7 or 8 times world champion.

When you have no oppositon to benchmark you and no teammate to challenge you, its difficult to gauge if its the car or the driver. Again parellels with Vettels 4 WDC's.

Give Hamilton, Alonso, Leclerc a properly competitive car to challenge max and then the question can be answered.
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I completely understand what being no1 and no2 driver means, but Verstappen blews out his competition while Perez fight with couple of slower cars race after race.

But maybe that means that that Red Bull isn't that much faster than the competition in general, it's just that Max drives it like a maniac because it simply fits his racing style and he can get more out of it than other drivers can? Being 1-2 second quicker regulary than your teammate is probably unheard of, he was 3-4 seconds quicker than Perez for few laps in the rain last week in same period of the race with identical tires ffs.
 
BusbyMalone said:
How old will he be then, though? 42 is it. He still has it in him, of course. He's still a great driver. When I saw this current contact was until 2025, i thought maybe he calls it quits after that. Or maybe, as you imply, he's going to wait for the rule changes to see how that impacts Mercedes before he makes his next big move. Because that will definitely be his last contact you would imagine, so I guess this is a smart thing to do.
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Hes 38 now, so 40 by end of 2025. Whether he retires or not depends if he can get title no8. I dont think he wants to retire with abu dhabi 2021 defining his career.

By 2025 season, he should have an idea of how good the Mercedes 2026 car will be. Or he might jump ship to ferrari? Why not try try something no one since fangio has done and win WDC with three different teams?

Also i think if the result had been different for that race, he would have retired after it.
 
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Amar__ said:
I completely understand what being no1 and no2 driver means, but Verstappen blews out his competition while Perez fight with couple of slower cars race after race.

But maybe that means that that Red Bull isn't that much faster than the competition in general, it's just that Max drives it like a maniac because it simply fits his racing style and he can get more out of it than other drivers can? Being 1-2 second quicker regulary than your teammate is probably unheard of, he was 3-4 seconds quicker than Perez for few laps in the rain last week in same period of the race with identical tires ffs.
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This RB is one of the greatest cars ever built in the last 20 years of F1. Its ridiculously faster than the competition. But like the Hamilton/Bottas years, without actual competition its difficult to draw any conclusions.

Max is in cruise control most races and doesnt need to try, just like the Vettel RBs years and just like the Hamilton years with Bottas. Without actual competition you wont see the best of max, because he isnt being pushed.

The car simply doesnt suit Perez driving style, plus hes down on confidence.
 
dinostar77 said:
Hes 38 now, so 40 by end of 2025. Whether he retires or not depends if he can get title no8. I dont think he wants to retire with abu dhabi 2021 defining his career.

By 2025 season, he should have an idea of how good the Mercedes 2026 car will be. Or he migjg jump ship to ferrari? Why not try try something no one since fangio has done and win WDC with three different teams?

Also i think if the result had been different for that race, he would have retired after it.
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Ferrari would seriously need to sort their shit out for him to go there. But having him and Leclerc there (because I don't think he's going anywhere) would make that an incredibly strong team, and also very fun to watch. Would love to see that.

Hot take, but how about going back to...McLaren. If they can continue to improve (I know it's early days) but maybe a return there. Him and Piastri, with Lando gong to Merc.
 
BusbyMalone said:
Ferrari would seriously need to sort their shit out for him to go there. But having him and Leclerc there (because I don't think he's going anywhere) would make that an incredibly strong team, and also very fun to watch. Would love to see that.

Hot take, but how about going back to...McLaren. If they can continue to improve (I know it's early days) but maybe a return there. Him and Piastri, with Lando gong to Merc.
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He could do i.e. go back to Mclaren. No-one can predict the future, especially when it comes.to competative cars. As a F1 fan though id love to see Hamilton and Verstappen in a ferrari (not at the same time).

I still think its the ultimate test of a driver, to get that dyafunctional outfit working and delivering a WDC. Who knows if Senna had lived, he might have taken on the ferrari challenge.
 
dinostar77 said:
He could do i.e. go back to Mclaren. No-one can predict the future, especially when it comes.to competative cars. As a F1 fan though id love to see Hamilton and Verstappen in a ferrari (not at the same time).

I still think its the ultimate test of a driver, to get that dyafunctional outfit working and delivering a WDC. Who knows if Senna had lived, he might have taken on the ferrari challenge.
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Seeing Lewis and Max at Ferrari would be worth it for the entertainment of the comms alone. Neither driver would take the shit Charles has. That's also why they re champs and I still don't see Charles ever quite reaching that level. He's one of the best drivers on the grid when it comes to raw skills but he doesn't carry the same aura as the others. He would have been a Barichello or Irvine if the other driver was a clear number 1 like Schumacher was.
 
Personally I think him signing is a pointed to Mercedes maybe having a decent car next season, no don't laugh :nervous:
Would he sign a new contract with the car he has got now, I don't think he would, for what could be his last 2 season he will want a car that is capable of winning races, he wants that 8th title.
He wont settle for be for what he is driving now.
I can see him going to Ferrari after the 2 years, but has already said they would have to seriously up their game, also back to McLaren can't be ruled out
 
pauldyson1uk said:
Personally I think him signing is a pointed to Mercedes maybe having a decent car next season, no don't laugh :nervous:
Would he sign a new contract with the car he has got now, I don't think he would, for what could be his last 2 season he will want a car that is capable of winning races, he wants that 8th title.
He wont settle for be for what he is driving now.
I can see him going to Ferrari after the 2 years, but has already said they would have to seriously up their game, also back to McLaren can't be ruled out
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The car next season will be the same one as this season.

They've already dropped one design philosophy, they dont have a third one kicking about.
 
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