Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

I agree that there's some poor writing in there but I think there was always going to be some disappointment with how they handled the WW's.

I'm guessing the Dothraki charged in because they were on an open field and it made sense to try and play towards their strength, but they didn't use Winterfell very well from a defensive point of view.

Neither did the Bolton's actually. You've got a big castle with large walls and yet you're going on the offensive and positioning most of your forces outside the walls?
 
Klopper76 said:
I agree that there's some poor writing in there but I think there was always going to be some disappointment with how they handled the WW's.

I'm guessing the Dothraki charged in because they were on an open field and it made sense to try and play towards their strength, but they didn't use Winterfell very well from a defensive point of view.

Neither did the Bolton's actually. You've got a big castle with large walls and yet you're going on the offensive and positioning most of your forces outside the walls?
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One thing I've seen that makes sense is the main quality of the Dothraki is the way they put fear into their enemies by their presence alone - obviously that's going to be negated in a fight against the dead.
 
Skills said:
With Theon gone - there's now no male heir to the following houses

Stark
Greyjoy (well apart from Euron)
Tyrell

And who else? That's a lot of powerful houses who won't exist anymore
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Why apart from Euron? He is the heir (by the laws of Westeros, the Iron Islands seem to have a freer approach).
House Mormont doesn't but they didn't really — Sir Friendzone was outcasted, so falls in the same category as Brann (alive but not eligible). Well, Brann is eligible but he doesn't want to.
Sam's house as well — since he had left behind his claim to join the Night Watch.
Boltons.
Freys, possibly — if Arya killed everyone of them, I'm not sure though.
 
I think it had to be Arya who killed the NK by sneaking up in him when his guard was down. We saw what happened when Jon, someone who had the tools and skills to kill him, ran at him. Any final charge by another character at the end would have seen the same happen. I do wish we had seen more whitewalkers in action though.

Tactical choices were ridiculous too. Who builds trebuchet and puts them in front of your army?
 
Cheesy said:
One thing I've seen that makes sense is the main quality of the Dothraki is the way they put fear into their enemies by their presence alone - obviously that's going to be negated in a fight against the dead.
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I read something suggesting they should've used them to flank the White's once they'd already charged into the Unsullied to break the lines but then I guess they had two dragon's to break them up.

The other White Walker's did literally nothing in that which is a huge disappointment. I wanted to see Jorah or Brienne or someone like that fighting WW's.
 
RussellWilson said:
The inside of the episode with DnD on Youtube explains a lot of the thinking of how things played out and specifically why Arya was the one to kill the Knight King.

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Not having a go at you for posting this to begin with.

The audience shouldnt need an explanation as to why an episode played out the way it did. If its not clear during the episode then thats on the showrunners. These explanation programmes do my head in.
 
RedSky said:
Yeah, I think i'm siding with Cersei now. I'm starting to think the show has balked at the idea of killing off major characters, if they aren't dying against waves of the undead that vastly outnumber them then they aren't going to die against Cersei's army. As someone else said, they all have strong plot armour. That's what was so good about Georges writing, none had plot armour and he wasn't afraid of killing characters despite their stories not being finished.
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Exactly. The show built up its own logic. You made a mistake? You're dead. Do something stupid? You die. The way i just worded it makes it sound gratuitous, but it wasn't. It was only gratuitous in the sense that it was something that we wasn't used to seeing in a TV show. But when you think about it and look back at the characters that died, they made sense. It's part of the reason (not the whole reason, of course) that the show was so special. It brought tension and a real sense of peril.

So when characters are putting themselves in danger, like they did in this episode and last season, yet they escape without a scratch (ok, Theon aside, but come on...) then it just cheapens it. How the feck the Hound is still alive i don't know! Well, i do know, 'cause they're probably setting up cleganebowl. Which would just be the worst.
 
Klopper76 said:
I agree that there's some poor writing in there but I think there was always going to be some disappointment with how they handled the WW's.

I'm guessing the Dothraki charged in because they were on an open field and it made sense to try and play towards their strength, but they didn't use Winterfell very well from a defensive point of view.

Neither did the Bolton's actually. You've got a big castle with large walls and yet you're going on the offensive and positioning most of your forces outside the walls?
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Yeah, like the WW were either going to win or lose. A WW win would be the one that made sense from a narrative view point, whereas them losing had to be a surprise/stealth thing. No possible scenario that the living overpower the endless dead, no battle tactics where they outsmart an endless army, and the show wasnt going to end with the WW killing everyone, and there was no way of it continuing past this episode. So in the end, something like Arya made the most sense and it's what happened.
 
Still thinkthat cinematically, the Battle of the Bastards was better. Still, great episode.
 
BusbyMalone said:
Exactly. The show built up its own logic. You made a mistake? You're dead. Do something stupid? You die. The way i just worded it makes it sound gratuitous, but it wasn't. It was only gratuitous in the sense that it was something that we wasn't used to seeing in a TV show. But when you think about it and look back at the characters that died, they made sense. It's part of the reason (not the whole reason, of course) that the show was so special. It brought tension and a real sense of peril.

So when characters are putting themselves in danger, like they did in this episode and last season, yet they escape without a scratch (ok, Theon aside, but come on...) then it just cheapens it. How the feck the Hound is still alive i don't know! Well, i do know, 'cause they're probably setting up cleganebowl. Which would just be the worst.
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I can understand why they'll take some creative liberties insofar as you're always going to be slightly kinder to your main characters in a major battle, because Jaime Lannister dying eight seasons in from, say, a random stab from a wight with no catharsis or anything would be kinda disappointing.

But an issue for me is when they build up big potential deaths and then cop out on them.

There was moment towards the end when Jon's going to save Bran but sees Sam trapped on the floor surrounded by wights. He has to contemplate whether to try and save his brother or save Sam. He chooses Bran over his closest friend because he knows it's what needs to be done: if Sam dies that's potentially an incredibly powerful moment which hits home the consequences of making a choice in war. But Sam doesn't die, which negates the moment and cheapens it, taking away any potential power it might have had.
 
I think the demise of the Dothraki is one of the better moments simply because it had story consistency. They did what they do, staying true to the behaviour and motivations established in earlier seasons. If other characters did similar then many story problems might have been averted. Maybe.
 
I came into this thread upset due to the lack of major character deaths but was pleasantly surprised to see that this episode also aided in the demise of another, in the banning of that spoiler guy. I'm adding him to my casualty list! :D ALL MEN MUST DIE!

Good episode, well the bits I could see were enjoyable anyway. I hate the fact that plot armour saved Jon Snow and others like a million times, I really hope a lot of the main characters die soon, they are proper blue balling us.
 
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harms said:
Why apart from Euron? He is the heir (by the laws of Westeros, the Iron Islands seem to have a freer approach).
House Mormont doesn't but they didn't really — Sir Friendzone was outcasted, so falls in the same category as Brann (alive but not eligible). Well, Brann is eligible but he doesn't want to.
Sam's house as well — since he had left behind his claim to join the Night Watch.
Boltons.
Freys, possibly — if Arya killed everyone of them, I'm not sure though.
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Freys arent wiped. Arya said she killed everyone who meant something, but they're all grown men. They'll have kids still alive to carry the family name on. Mormont seems wiped unless there's another younger sibling which seems unlikely. Sams house might be ok given the Nights Watch will probably be disbanded now so he can continue its lineage. I would imagine a few of the Northern Houses are wiped given the crypts were attacked though. I'm kind of curious to know if anything will happen to the Glovers for betraying the North and abandoning them. It'll probably be ignored though.
 
Cheesy said:
I can understand why they'll take some creative liberties insofar as you're always going to be slightly kinder to your main characters in a major battle, because Jaime Lannister dying eight seasons in from, say, a random stab from a wight with no catharsis or anything would be kinda disappointing.

But an issue for me is when they build up big potential deaths and then cop out on them.

There was moment towards the end when Jon's going to save Bran but sees Sam trapped on the floor surrounded by wights. He has to contemplate whether to try and save his brother or save Sam. He chooses Bran over his closest friend because he knows it's what needs to be done: if Sam dies that's potentially an incredibly powerful moment which hits home the consequences of making a choice in war. But Sam doesn't die, which negates the moment and cheapens it, taking away any potential power it might have had.
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Exactly. Sam living through that fight despite being on the front lines is so damn fecking stupid. No doubt Gilly and Little Sam survived the crypts as well. :lol:
 
RedSky said:
Freys arent wiped. Arya said she killed everyone who meant something, but they're all grown men. They'll have kids still alive to carry the family name on. Mormont seems wiped unless there's another younger sibling which seems unlikely. Sams house might be ok given the Nights Watch will probably be disbanded now so he can continue its lineage. I would imagine a few of the Northern Houses are wiped given the crypts were attacked though. I'm kind of curious to know if anything will happen to the Glovers for betraying the North and abandoning them. It'll probably be ignored though.
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They did not betray the north imo. They have reason to be mad. They have sworn to be loyal to the king in the north. But there is no king in the north anymore.
 
OutlawGER said:
They did not betray the north imo. They have reason to be mad. They have sworn to be loyal to the king in the north. But there is no king in the north anymore.
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They fled like cowards to their home rather than unifying with the rest of the North against a common enemy. They betrayed the North by not being there when the Starks called upon them.
 
stepic said:
so is Arya the 'Prince That Was Promised'?
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Your Grace, forgive me, but your translation is not quite accurate. That noun has no gender in High Valyrian, so the proper translation for that prophecy would be, "The prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn."
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Your Grace, forgive me, but your translation is not quite accurate. That noun has no gender in High Valyrian, so the proper translation for that prophecy would be, "The prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn."
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:lol:
 
RussellWilson said:
The inside of the episode with DnD on Youtube explains a lot of the thinking of how things played out and specifically why Arya was the one to kill the Knight King.
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We never said that the dragon fire kills him specifically, so it didn't... because it would've been too bland.

Great argument :lol:
 
golden_blunder said:
On reflection, what you’ve done is just not on. It’s completely unfair to all the users who have avoided the avengers thread because they’ve yet to see the movie and weren’t expecting to have a spoiler for that movie in a thread about a different show. So yeah you brought the abuse on yourself and you can now jog on
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You showed considerable restraint to not immediately ban someone so selfish and idiotic. Cross-thread spoilers ruin the integrity of threads like these. Thankfully I'd seen end game right before GoT yesterday, otherwise the clown would have gone permanently on my ignore list.
 
RedSky said:
My point is, if they are told to stop by the Night King, does that mean they literally turn into statues? We've never seen that happen in the entire 8 seasons of GoT. Nobody has sneaked past or even seen statue deads. The closest I can think of is when he raises them at Hardhome and they all stand watching as Jon rows off. If we think that it's as simple as the Night King flicking a switch from on to off then surely the other white walkers would know this and be a bit more alert? I'd need to rewatch the scene again, but as they walked into Winterfell i'm sure there were like a dozen of them, not sure how many went to Bran though.
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There was also that time when they had Jon etc surrounded, but Jon and the lads where surrounded by water. The one when NK kills the dragon.

All the dead were just stood still, statuesque. They weren't chomping at the bit, like they do when in battle. They were still, quiet, waiting.

Don't think there's any time when people just sneak past them in this state though.

As for the white walkers, look at my expert diagram.
MQaEJOn.jpg

WW stood at the top of the tunnel made by the dead. Night King and Bran in the middle. Let's say Arya takes the route in red, they'd easily miss her. Especially if, as you've alluded to, they're being a tad complacent at this point. Eyes on the prize they've chased for years! They miss Miss Stark.
 
dumbo said:
The Tyrion and Sansa stuff clunked a little but overall it was nice and worked for me.
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Also helped keep the Sansa/Daenerys tension going.

Wonder if the final resolution might see Sansa and Tyrion marry again? Sansa's gone all political now and would recognise it as being a fairly sensible political move to help consolidate the Starks power.
 
Cheesy said:
I can understand why they'll take some creative liberties insofar as you're always going to be slightly kinder to your main characters in a major battle, because Jaime Lannister dying eight seasons in from, say, a random stab from a wight with no catharsis or anything would be kinda disappointing.

But an issue for me is when they build up big potential deaths and then cop out on them.

There was moment towards the end when Jon's going to save Bran but sees Sam trapped on the floor surrounded by wights. He has to contemplate whether to try and save his brother or save Sam. He chooses Bran over his closest friend because he knows it's what needs to be done: if Sam dies that's potentially an incredibly powerful moment which hits home the consequences of making a choice in war. But Sam doesn't die, which negates the moment and cheapens it, taking away any potential power it might have had.
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100%

There was no bittersweet moment in this episode. The opening 15/20 minutes of this episode was exceptional filmmaking which built up a tremendous amount of foreboding and tension. But upon further viewing, and looking back on it in hindsight, it will be negated somewhat by the fact that you know that nothing truly terrible happens.

As for Sam, the amount of times he was encased in hordes of the undead only for him to somehow break free or be saved at the last minute was ridiculous. I mean, we're talking about Sam here! Very silly.
 
@Bubz27 - Pretty diagram :D

Looking back at the scene, it seems like Arya borrowed some superhero Flash skills to run fast (hence the wind) with the 'woosh' sound effect and the moving of white walkers hair. Which implies that she was very close to the White Walkers when she moved past. She basically ran straight past the White Walkers at the top of your funnel.

edit: You can also see on Theons death scene that the white walkers fill the gap, they are two white walkers wide and at least 3 rows of them. Night King then walks forward after killing Theon (it's around 100 yards given how far Theon ran).

Seems to me the only explanation therefore is Arya managed to run past the white walkers in the very narrow gap and then sprinted at the Night King who didn't bother to unsheathe his sword despite having more than enough time to react. Arya does some kind of weird unseen jump at him that we never knew she could do. Magical ninja skills.

It's the Red Scorpion all over again, but even more lame because the White Walkers should be on alert as they all know that if he dies everything dies. They're his bodyguard and they just allowed an assassin to run past them. :lol:
 
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RedSky said:
Exactly. Sam living through that fight despite being on the front lines is so damn fecking stupid. No doubt Gilly and Little Sam survived the crypts as well. :lol:
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Even if they didn't want to off Sam - having Edd or Tormund die then in that moment with Jon giving them up would've worked and had somewhat of an impact.
 
The start of the episode was amazing. The Dothraki riding out with the flames and then all the flames suddenly dying out was brilliantly ominous. Then when you finally see the dead and they're clambering over each other World War Z style, so good.
 
Bubz27 said:
There was also that time when they had Jon etc surrounded, but Jon and the lads where surrounded by water. The one when NK kills the dragon.

All the dead were just stood still, statuesque. They weren't chomping at the bit, like they do when in battle. They were still, quiet, waiting.

Don't think there's any time when people just sneak past them in this state though.

As for the white walkers, look at my expert diagram.
MQaEJOn.jpg

WW stood at the top of the tunnel made by the dead. Night King and Bran in the middle. Let's say Arya takes the route in red, they'd easily miss her. Especially if, as you've alluded to, they're being a tad complacent at this point. Eyes on the prize they've chased for years! They miss Miss Stark.
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latest


This man singlehandedly safed the world from the WW. It's magic. Get over it. :p

Arya was probably hidden amongst the WW, as one of them.
 
For those who didn't like the episode and the ending in particular, in genuinely interested in what they wanted to happen instead? It seems like the big alternative floating about the internet was Jon killing TNK with Lightbringer, which would have definitely been a contrived way of doing things. Arya coming out of nowhere and killing him was a big shock and subverted all expectations, but makes sense based on what we know about her characters abilities and the Night King's attitude (he's always been a cocky fecker, even at Hardhome he intentionally peacocked Jon when raising the dead). For me it was the best surprise the show has had since the Mountain and the Viper and, like that, played on the strength and weaknesses of the characters involved.
 
Mad when you think that dagger which has been in the series season season 1 has so much significance
 
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